Spyder's web

[gollum]

BB, i tried your suggestion out and here's my thoughts:
aiming for spies as the Scotts or Picts slows down considerably the rushing flow if you aim for them too early; this is because you divert resources and time from making troops and boats to tech up and make spies early-on that resources are limited and so your rate of early expansion is slower than it otherwise could be.

Of course once you start the ruh you can move slightly quicker as you say, yet, the early time lost finds the Mercians and the Saxons more advanced and powerful than it would otherwise.

Perhaps it may be worth it to go for it as the Welsh that start with a fort (or was it keep?) in Wales and hence it takes less time and resources for them to get them.

Rushing as the Scotts/Picts/Welsh i make use of Clansmen/Celts as much as possible. I garrison newly acquired provinces and put taxes at lowest for the first few turns and build the early happy buildings aiming to release the garrisons asap to go to teh front line and keep attacking. While the Celt warriors cost a little bit more than the clansmen and they are slightly less suitable, they are als more in number and hence they somewhat make up for it. Clansmen are just too good and too cheap hence perfect for rush.

Of course there are other strategies and approaches than a straight all out head on attack

[Gilrandir]

Spies are also good at informing on the generals that have a mind for rebellion. But I wonder, do they only warn you of what is brewing, or are they able to keep the loyalty of the generals high enough to prevent a rebellion? Or do they have an influence on the loyalty of the province only?

[Prince Cobra]

Spies are also good at informing on the generals that have a mind for rebellion. But I wonder, do they only warn you of what is brewing, or are they able to keep the loyalty of the generals high enough to prevent a rebellion? Or do they have an influence on the loyalty of the province only?

I think they influence the loyalty of all generals only after a successful or failed trial for treason.

[Brandy Blue]

BB, i tried your suggestion out and here's my thoughts:
aiming for spies as the Scotts or Picts slows down considerably the rushing flow if you aim for them too early; this is because you divert resources and time from making troops and boats to tech up and make spies early-on that resources are limited and so your rate of early expansion is slower than it otherwise could be.

Of course once you start the ruh you can move slightly quicker as you say, yet, the early time lost finds the Mercians and the Saxons more advanced and powerful than it would otherwise.

Perhaps it may be worth it to go for it as the Welsh that start with a fort (or was it keep?) in Wales and hence it takes less time and resources for them to get them.

Rushing as the Scotts/Picts/Welsh i make use of Clansmen/Celts as much as possible. I garrison newly acquired provinces and put taxes at lowest for the first few turns and build the early happy buildings aiming to release the garrisons asap to go to teh front line and keep attacking. While the Celt warriors cost a little bit more than the clansmen and they are slightly less suitable, they are als more in number and hence they somewhat make up for it. Clansmen are just too good and too cheap hence perfect for rush.

Of course there are other strategies and approaches than a straight all out head on attack

Interesting. If I get the time for it I would like to benefit from your advice, but I usually play STW or RTW these days. Don't know when I will finally get back to MTW.

[Axalon]

Spies only affect the loyalty of the province, not the loyalty of generals. Failed treason plots have no effect apart from giving the general vices that can make him harder to get rid of - more resistant to spies. Successful treason plots apparently raise loyalty of all generals - though I can't say I've noticed it.

Sigh.... You are hardly in a position to begin correct others here Caravel, or to declare what is accurate and not – considering that your own information here is flawed and untrue. So, who shall correct you - the eager corrector? ...This time around it will be me (again).

Spies only affect the loyalty of the province, not the loyalty of generals.

False…. Spies affect the loyalty of target-generals due to failed treason-trials. Per each attempted and failed trial: -1 Loyalty as a result… And then there is the vices too….


Vices gained:
===========

1 attempted & failed trial: “Informants”, -0 loyalty…. +2 vs. spies
2 attempted & failed trials: “Informant network”, -1 loyalty…. +4 vs. spies
3 attempted & failed trials: “Spy Network”, -2 loyalty…. +4 vs. spies
4 attempted & failed trials: “Spy Network”, -3 loyalty…. +4 vs. spies
5 attempted & failed trials: “Secret Assassinator”, -4 loyalty…. +6 vs. spies, – 20% happiness…
6 attempted & failed trials: “Assassinator”, -5 loyalty…. +2 vs. spies, -40% happiness….

Failed treason plots have no effect apart from giving the general vices that can make him harder to get rid of - more resistant to spies.

False…. See above…. Also, the fact is that with enough failed trials it actually becomes easier pull it off due to severely lowered loyalty that comes out of repeated attempts.

Successful treason plots apparently raise loyalty of all generals - though I can't say I've noticed it.

False…. No additional loyalty-bonuses elsewhere for successful treason-trials – as in other generals. Also to be clear here, successful trials execute the target-general in question – no exceptions. It does not increase any loyalty anywhere....



Anyway, feel free to check it out first hand in the game, if you like folks....

- A

[Axalon]

Long time ago, Ludens made an excellent post regarding spies (and other agents). I'll make an excerpt of it (the relevant part) for future reference here. I also taken the liberty to cross out the parts that are obviously wrong - for the sake of clarity. Anyway here it is...

Spies
Spies gather information like other agents, but spies are invisible, can warn you of imminent attacks and cause discontent in enemy provinces as well. And they have even more functions:

• Secret police in own provinces: they improve loyalty by {40% + 20 * spy_valour}, but only the highest-valour spy is taking into calculation (except in vanilla MTW).
• Intercepts enemy spies and assassins in own provinces. A spy gains valour through this, even if he is aided by a border fort. Valour helps catching even more spies.
• Gather information in enemy provinces
• Causes unrest in enemy provinces: as spy decreases loyalty by {40% + 20 * spy_valour}. Before VI you could wolf pack enemy provinces with spies but after VI this doesn't work anymore. Only the most experienced spy now lowers loyalty. A spy gains valour for every rebellion he causes.
• Warns you of planned attacks by the AI factions. The information will include the attacker, the target and the number of years before the attack can be expected. This gains him stars. Keep in mind however, that the AI can also make opportunistic attacks, and that planned attacks can be cancelled, for example if the target strengthens his garrison.
• Reveals hidden vices of enemy (VI/MTW) and friendly (MTW-only) generals. The general also gains a spy-defence vice (even if nothing was revealed). If several repeated attempts at revelation occur, the general will get severe anti-spy vices that will lower loyalty of his province. This is a rather cheesy tactic to cause revolts.
• Frames friendly generals for treason. The success of this action depends on the loyalty of the general, the skill of the spy and perhaps the command rating of the general. If successful, the accused general will die and your other generals will gain a loyalty boost. If unsuccessful, the general loses loyalty, gains a spy-protection vice and perhaps there is a loyalty-penalty for your other generals as well.
• Can open the gates of besieged castles. Success depends on the skill of the spy and the number of defenders.

Spies are invisible, but can be caught by other spies and border forts. High valour protects them from detection. EatYerGreens suggested a training strategy for spies that involved an assassin trap. Place a spy and a zero-star emissary in a border province without border forts. This will lure in enemy assassins that will be captured by the spy, thus gaining him valour. A port in the province will also draw in agents that try to take an oversea shortcut.
Have at least one spy in every province and when you go conquering, take a number with you. They are cheaper then garrisons. Also keep a cordon of spies around your important generals (the king, his sons, etc.) to protect him from assassins, but don't have those spies follow him into enemy territory if there are border forts present! Framing generals for treason is useful early in the game when your influence is low and you don't have many options, but it tends to go awry even on low loyalty generals and with disastrous results, so do not undertake this lightly.

Requirements: brothel. If you have VI, the brothel can be upgraded to bawdy house (+2 valour) in MTW campaign and to cunny warren (+3 valour) in VI campaign.

Cost: 100.

Drone if you see this, then you probably should make some corrections at your Wiki-article about spies as it has the same errors as far as I can tell. And you possibly could also include the trial-vices, and the -1 loyalty penalty (as outlined in post:20) as well somehow - that is my suggestion for you anyway. Regardless, I hope Ludens post will be useful here...

- A

[drone]

Drone if you see this, then you probably should make some corrections at your Wiki-article about spies as it has the same errors as far as I can tell. And you possibly could also include the trial-vices, and the -1 loyalty penalty (as outlined in post:20) as well somehow - that is my suggestion for you anyway. Regardless, I hope Ludens post will be useful here...

The errors are there because I took the info from that very post (it in the credits section).

So there is no effect on other generals when you try one of them?