Possible ban on halal/kosher meat in the Neds

[Cute Wolf]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this.... (monkey brain soup traditionally taken while the monkey is alive, then dunked quickly into hot boiling broth and tofu, and I hold traditons, it's proud Indonesian delicacy, and it was halal*)

....

You must know that the "kosher/halal" methods of animal slaughter are much more "humane" than other methods, and you shouldn't bought fish then, because fish was frozen alive... without sedations...

*. According to muslims who also drunk beers

[Hax]

You must know that the "kosher/halal" methods of animal slaughter are much more "humane" than other methods,

Not necessarily. There is no real scientific consensus about it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not necessarily. There is no real scientific consensus about it.

Meh. I wonder how much lack of scientific consensus there is if one disregards religiously inspired or funded scientists who claim that an animal shot through the brain suffers as much as an animal which slowly bleeds to death.

Religion can never win from science on science's own turf. Not regarding evolution, or criticism of the laws of physics, or wild claims about the scientific value of the Bible or Koran, or 'first cause' God evidences. It is all a death end. Religion will always lose out. It merely serves as a means for the religious to cover their ears and eyes for what they would otherwise see is true.

Better, I think, is to argue that the religious slaughter tradition acknlowedges that one is dealing with a live being. That man and animal are kept in touch, look each other in the eye as it were. Whereas it is the scientific tradition which has invented industrial biology. Which has moved animals away from people, has given secular industrial society the means to cover its eyes and ears for the plight of sentient beings.
It is not a pretty sight, to kill an animal, to hang it upside down, skin it, cut out the intestines. It is far removed from the 'fun food' you see on your plate. A distance which has allowed the industry to commit all sorts of sins with both the well-being of the animal and the health of the human consumer.

[Hax]

I am in complete agreeance, but still, I don't think we should deny any form of science pursued by religious people out of hand.

Better, I think, is to argue that the religious slaughter tradition acknlowedges that one is dealing with a live being. That man and animal are kept in touch, look each other in the eye as it were. Whereas it is the scientific tradition which has invented industrial biology. Which has moved animals away from people, has given secular industrial society the means to cover its eyes and ears for the plight of sentient beings.
It is not a pretty sight, to kill an animal, to hang it upside down, skin it, cut out the intestines. It is far removed from the 'fun food' you see on your plate. A distance which has allowed the industry to commit all sorts of sins with both the well-being of the animal and the health of the human consumer.

Exactly this. Couldn't have worded it better myself. In which you have also outlined the reason why I've abstained from eating meat for six years.

[Skullheadhq]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this....

mmmm.... delicious.....
I want some!

[Cute Wolf]

mmmm.... delicious.....
I want some!

100% Animal Cruelty
only in South East Asia

(no, I'm not bought any monkey yet, actually I ate steamed potato for breakfast today)

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as the sale of halal/kosher meat is not banned, I don't see what the problem is. If the regulations state that halal/kosher meat is treated in a way that violates the rules which state that the duty of the government is to make sure food is safe and humanely prepared, then the regulations should stand.

If their way of life is not threatened, then there is no violation of religion here in my book. If all the halal/kosher meat simply switches from "Made in the Netherlands" to "Made in x country." What is the problem?

EDIT: To make my point more clear, what I saying is: if they can still buy it, then I don't see what the problem is.

[HoreTore]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

[Samurai Waki]

Unless you're the one killing the animal, and butchering the meat I hardly see a reason to complain. The bigger issues are the industrial sized ranches churning out pathetic quality meat by animals that are treated horribly in their time of living. Happy cows are tasty cows.

[HoreTore]

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

[Fragony]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

[Samurai Waki]

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

[Viking]

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

No, now you are mixing things up. There are concerns about the welfare about animals because we believe that it causes them suffering if they are treated badly. The pain that a cow feel is irrelevant to whether some people consider the animal holy or not.

...
We breed them to be slaughtered and eaten, slitting their throats is hardly crueler than that.

It would only be cruel if they could understand the plot and feel uneasy about it, something which I doubt.. Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

[HoreTore]

Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

True.

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....




As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

[Kralizec]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

[HoreTore]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

Don't worry: I frequently agree with Frags, and that one time hell froze over, me and Furunculus was also in perfect agreement!

[Viking]

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....

As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

[HoreTore]

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.