Possible ban on halal/kosher meat in the Neds

[Skullheadhq]

man, I'm gonna buy a monkey and slice it's head alive so I can eat it's brain to commemorate this....

mmmm.... delicious.....
I want some!

[Cute Wolf]

mmmm.... delicious.....
I want some!

100% Animal Cruelty
only in South East Asia

(no, I'm not bought any monkey yet, actually I ate steamed potato for breakfast today)

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as the sale of halal/kosher meat is not banned, I don't see what the problem is. If the regulations state that halal/kosher meat is treated in a way that violates the rules which state that the duty of the government is to make sure food is safe and humanely prepared, then the regulations should stand.

If their way of life is not threatened, then there is no violation of religion here in my book. If all the halal/kosher meat simply switches from "Made in the Netherlands" to "Made in x country." What is the problem?

EDIT: To make my point more clear, what I saying is: if they can still buy it, then I don't see what the problem is.

[HoreTore]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

[Samurai Waki]

Unless you're the one killing the animal, and butchering the meat I hardly see a reason to complain. The bigger issues are the industrial sized ranches churning out pathetic quality meat by animals that are treated horribly in their time of living. Happy cows are tasty cows.

[HoreTore]

There is no humane way of killing something. There are more humane ways of killing than others though. Obviously we can agree there is a difference between smashing the head with a rock repeatedly until it dies and giving it a quick electric zap to the head.

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

[gaelic cowboy]

Bah two pages of an absolute rubbish "Oh no halal/kosher meat could be banned" boo hoo if they were all hungry enough they wouldnt give a toss where the meat came from.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What's the difference between cutting it and letting it bleed to death(the kosher way) and scolding it alive(our way)?

False dichotomy. It is not given that "our way" is scolding it alive. Do you somehow know that every slaughterhouse in Europe and North America scolds them alive?

The difference is in intent and in the pain factor. If you deny that a bullet to the head is quicker and less painful then having your head bashed in with a rock, then you have lost at living in reality.

An electrical zap that knocks the animal unconscious and disrupts breathing is quick, painless and they don't suffer as much as slicing their throats open as they hang from a cable wide awake.

It is also less malicious in intent. Killing animals to eat is not an "inhumane" action. It is nature and does not subscribe or allow itself to be applied with human concepts of humane or inhumane. Cats are not "inhumane" creatures for capturing and killing mice to eat. The act of killing the animal itself is always inhumane though and should be recognized as regrettable because we have the ability to actually think about our actions. There is a lot of nuance here that you and many others in this thread entirely skip over in order to make your general point.

We are not monsters because we eat other animals, but we can be monsters due to how we go about it. Bleeding a pig out while it hangs upside down is backwards and is obviously more pain and suffering for the animal then a usual factory farm that kills them in a quicker, more efficient pattern.

This detracts from the point I made in the first place though, which is that if this kosher way is less sanitary or healthy then normal western preparation, then the ban is fine as long as it doesn't ban the product outright.

[Fragony]

The bigest problem with this is that it glorifies our industrial agriculture, ACIN, as people start believing the lie that our treatment of animals is somehow "humane".

Which is nonsense. We optimize for profit, not animal welfare.

I'm okay with that, however, which is why I also have no problem with kosher.

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

[Samurai Waki]

Nobody has doubts about the industry, although it isn't as bad as some think, rules are pretty strict (here at least). Like described in 'Fast Food Nation', well it doesn't go like that over here. The scale is morbid of course.

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Perhaps in the Neds... it's an absolute disgrace for the USA and it's mostly because people are hopelessly addicted to processed meat, say the words "Cut back a bit if you can't afford good quality" doesn't ring with many people here... so bad quality has absorbed the market, and nobody cares because of government subsidies that have choked the profitability out of sustainable and dare-I-say humane ranching/farming methods.

People are not addicted to processed meat, they are addicted to cheap meat. Big difference. I once had a fresh, natural ranched steak and my taste buds were never happier, but I still enjoy Wendy's when I am hungry just because I am happy to get so much food for so little.

[Viking]

well, somebody else's delicacy could be cruelty for some... it's unfortunate indeed... but if we use the same judgements, Indians could protest Europeans that ate cows, because they are sacred and shouldn't be eaten.

No, now you are mixing things up. There are concerns about the welfare about animals because we believe that it causes them suffering if they are treated badly. The pain that a cow feel is irrelevant to whether some people consider the animal holy or not.

...
We breed them to be slaughtered and eaten, slitting their throats is hardly crueler than that.

It would only be cruel if they could understand the plot and feel uneasy about it, something which I doubt.. Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

[HoreTore]

Either way, cruelty does not excuse more cruelty.

True.

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....




As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

[Kralizec]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

[HoreTore]

Earlier this month I visited my parents and we had a discussion about this subject. Back then, I argued pretty much the same thing as HoreTore: there are numerous other issues about the meat industry that should be adressed, before taking on a relatively minor one like this - especially if the latter will also alienate some religious groups.

But now that HoreTore is saying it, I don't know what to think...

Don't worry: I frequently agree with Frags, and that one time hell froze over, me and Furunculus was also in perfect agreement!

[Viking]

But perhaps we should take care of the worst cruelty first, then worry about the less cruel stuff afterwards? Remove the log before the splinter, as some might say....

As long as fur farms are still around, animal welfare is a joke. Same goes for the outrageous long distances animals are transported in Europe.

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

[HoreTore]

I think the animals that are forced to bleed to death would like to differ. There are surely graver things going on, but one can focus on one topic at a time.

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

[Slyspy]

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

You keep bringing up fur farms when it has little or no relevance. Neither does transportation, which is required even if the meat is to be halal or kosher.

[Viking]

I think the animals biting themselves to death due to insane stress levels on fur farms would like to differ.

As would the animals who die a slow, painful death while transported to slaughter.

That is still not to say that the lesser sufferings should not be stopped.. They do not have to come at the expense of each other.

As for the 'terrible' transportation, I wonder if you have som links to come up with - it rings no bells here.