War on Drugs has Failed... and in Other News the Sky is Blue

[Fragony]

And you don't think that a company like Philipp Morris has the funds to pay their own private security force that is armed with anti armour weapons to protect their property? I think they do and, unlike the cartels who are hated, they will have everyone on their side as they are just defending, which means, people will still buy from Philipp Morris and the cartels will eventually, maybe after doing some damage, die out because after all they are not terrorists who fight for an ideal. Their "soldiers" aren't on a holy war, they are mercenaries and when mercenaries don't get paid, what do they do?

Sure, but is it worth the trouble. Surely you can equip private security with big guns, but you can also just don't make it necesary. If you just stop trouble over what's small you don't have to deal with what's big, just stop locking up users presto

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sure, but is it worth the trouble. Surely you can equip private security with big guns, but you can also just don't make it necesary. If you just stop trouble over what's small you don't have to deal with what's big, just stop locking up users presto

So the options are:

A) Legalize drugs, take a few years of cartel retaliation, then enjoy their demise and bask in the extra freedom and safety the world now has.
or
B) Don't legalize drugs. Make sure they don't attack us but just keep to themselves killing people in Mexico and have our treasury depleted fighting them until the end of time.

And you think B is the best choice?

[Fragony]

So the options are:

A) Legalize drugs, take a few years of cartel retaliation, then enjoy their demise and bask in the extra freedom and safety the world now has.
or
B) Don't legalize drugs. Make sure they don't attack us but just keep to themselves killing people in Mexico and have our treasury depleted fighting them until the end of time.

And you think B is the best choice?

Well yeah, B absolutely, as they won't just vanish anyway. You lost this decades ago you can't just undo that.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well yeah, B absolutely, as they won't just vanish anyway. You lost this decades ago you can't just undo that.

Why would they not go away? They have no more money. Where is their power? Power doesn't just come from nowhere. Just because they are here does not mean they will always be here. Your logic is flawed.

[Shibumi]

Wait, Fragony is suggesting that if we legalize weed in Sweden (or where ever) we will have heavily armed cartel mercs in APCs on a rampage all over the rural areas.

Somehow I am ready to go out on a limb here and take the chance.

I think the real question of this thread is what Fragony is taking, and how we can get a hold of it.

[Fragony]

Wait, Fragony is suggesting that if we legalize weed in Sweden (or where ever) we will have heavily armed cartel mercs in APCs on a rampage all over the rural areas.

Somehow I am ready to go out on a limb here and take the chance.

I think the real question of this thread is what Fragony is taking, and how we can get a hold of it.

Don't tallk as if I'm arent here, you don't have to adress me by proxy. Sweden isn't America they don't have a huge border with Mexico for example, they just don't because Sweden is on the other side of planet earth. It is, check your map I'm not making it up

[TheLastDays]

Somehow I don't get what you're saying there...
Their power comes from their money, take their money and they have no power at all. They can hide in countries like Mexico and there it's freakin hard to get them because you practically have to invade against a Guerilla force and in a defensive war Guerilla tactics are very effective.

If they want to attack Philipp Morris they'd basically have to invade the US and that's a whole other story...

Also

"Hard" druges, like Cocaine and Heroin are heinous in their effect on people, Meth and Acid rot your insides, LCD actually simulates shitzophrenia, and Hash has all the downsides of tobacoo with the added bonus that even moderate indulgence seriously bluntes your intellect and can cause mental health problems as well as memory problems if you take it when you're young.

I totally agree, I was just taking my point on the discussion that was going on. If you ask me you can't go ahead and give these things to people at all but the problem is, they are getting the stuff anyway, so you have to ask yourself how you can minimize the negative side effects for the part of society that doesn't take drugs

[Ice]

Wait, Fragony is suggesting that if we legalize weed in Sweden (or where ever) we will have heavily armed cartel mercs in APCs on a rampage all over the rural areas.

Somehow I am ready to go out on a limb here and take the chance.

I think the real question of this thread is what Fragony is taking, and how we can get a hold of it.

What I find extraordinary is how ingrained myths about drugs are. Go talk about God, not drugs, that's something you seem to know about.

For the win. So... much... misinformation in this thread...

[Fragony]

Why would they not go away? They have no more money. Where is their power? Power doesn't just come from nowhere. Just because they are here does not mean they will always be here. Your logic is flawed.

They will not go away because they can outfund everything you throw at them 10:1 it's of no use

[a completely inoffensive name]

They will not go away because they can outfund everything you throw at them 10:1 it's of no use

They won't have money if no one is buying drugs from them. This is the key point here.

[Shibumi]

They won't have money if no one is buying drugs from them. This is the key point here.

No, the key point is the cartels ability to, with military means, crack down on western nation states.

Sure, they have B-countries such as Mexico and Brazil in their grasp (but only because it is still illegal there, and the countries are B-countries anyway). To think the drug cartels could stand up to a A-nation is a joke though. Sure they can get their hands in as long as it is illegal, but legalize and you would have half-empty-glasses of mercs against the industrialized western worlds army.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sure, but is it worth the trouble. Surely you can equip private security with big guns, but you can also just don't make it necesary. If you just stop trouble over what's small you don't have to deal with what's big, just stop locking up users presto

I still find this extraordinary as a debate.

"Hard" druges, like Cocaine and Heroin are heinous in their effect on people, Meth and Acid rot your insides, LCD actually simulates shitzophrenia, and Hash has all the downsides of tobacoo with the added bonus that even moderate indulgence seriously bluntes your intellect and can cause mental health problems as well as memory problems if you take it when you're young.

[Fragony]

I still find this extraordinary as a debate.

"Hard" druges, like Cocaine and Heroin are heinous in their effect on people, Meth and Acid rot your insides, LCD actually simulates shitzophrenia, and Hash has all the downsides of tobacoo with the added bonus that even moderate indulgence seriously bluntes your intellect and can cause mental health problems as well as memory problems if you take it when you're young.

Not my planet I just live on it

[naut]

I still find this extraordinary as a debate.

"Hard" druges, like Cocaine and Heroin are heinous in their effect on people, Meth and Acid rot your insides, LCD actually simulates shitzophrenia, and Hash has all the downsides of tobacoo with the added bonus that even moderate indulgence seriously bluntes your intellect and can cause mental health problems as well as memory problems if you take it when you're young.

What I find extraordinary is how ingrained myths about drugs are. Go talk about God, not drugs, that's something you seem to know about.

[Shibumi]

What I find extraordinary is how ingrained myths about drugs are. Go talk about God, not drugs, that's something you seem to know about.

Now now, no need to insult him. There is way to much flaming on this forum without the moderators adding to the fuel.

I am no stranger to drugs, and I am all for some use and legalizing. With that said, he is not actually wrong.

Well, only part I would say he is wrong is that hash seriously blunts your intellect even when moderately used. He is of course right short term, but not in a longer perspective. Same as saying alcohol blunts the intellect, I do not exactly get all Einsteinian when drunk. Does not affect me half a year afterwards though, same as with THC.

So again, he is mainly right with what he say. But with that said - legalize for crying out loud!

If someone want to ruin their life with heroine - then by all means do.

If someone wants to eat a bit too much candy with a big smile on their face while playing Total War under the influence of Marijuana - then by all means do.

[drone]

Legalization would bring about better quality control. Many of the harmful physical effects of the harder drugs are caused by the crap the dealers put in it to cut the product. Proper refining and manufacture would eliminate many side effects.

Fragony, the legalization, and more importantly taxation, would eliminate the cartel's power and influence. Nothing gets a government's ire up more than the non-payment of revenue. The cartels wouldn't stand a chance.

[Fragony]

Fragony, the legalization, and more importantly taxation, would eliminate the cartel's power and influence. Nothing gets a government's ire up more than the non-payment of revenue. The cartels wouldn't stand a chance.

You don't have their budget, how would they not have a chance. You can't hurt them without cutting youself in a most painful way, Columia has been fighting the FARC for how long, and well Mexico. Why go any further than decriminalising the end of the foodchain. Keep it in Mexico.

@all who make fun of armoured vehicles, try google

Also, how do you intend to outprice them if you want to tax it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Also, how do you intend to outprice them if you want to tax it?

Ah, Frags has you there. Look at the millions upon millions of illegal cigarettes that support organised crime in the West.

[drone]

You don't have their budget, how would they not have a chance. You can't hurt them without cutting youself in a most painful way, Columia has been fighting the FARC for how long, and well Mexico. Why go any further than decriminalising the end of the foodchain. Keep it in Mexico.

They won't have a budget if their customers have a cheaper, legal way to purchase better quality drugs.

Also, how do you intend to outprice them if you want to tax it?

The cost to manufacture and distribute through proper channels, when legalized, will undercut the costs of the smugglers. Rory probably knows better than I, but most illicit drugs can be manufactured quite cheaply. The UK ran a program for legalized heroin distribution to addicts years back, you can probably get the numbers from there. I'm not googling for smack info from work though.

Deaths from drugs legalized would drop, for several reasons. Proper dosage information, no harmful additives to cut the product, and an overall safer environment to partake will make a difference, even if more people start using.

It doesn't really, except as an exploration of an existing type of intoxicant. One can argue that fine wisky is a pleasure quite aside from it's intoxicating effect but clearly a greater level of intoxication is intended.

Distilled spirits is to beer what cocaine is to coca leaves. A more refined, concentrated version, that's all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What I find extraordinary is how ingrained myths about drugs are. Go talk about God, not drugs, that's something you seem to know about.

I would never claim to "know" about God, but thanks for the compliment anyway.

But, actually, I do know something about drugs and their effects on people. I come from a poor farming community and use of canabis and cocaine is 9or rather was) quite widespread. There were several men in their twenties who had heart attacks when I was a teenager, and I watched several friends descend into drug addiction, most of them are recovered now, but not all. Having said that, I also know alchoholics - fewer of those have recovered.

Here's the thing I don't understand, some of these drugs are much, much worse than alchohol. Also, "alchohol" is merely a component of many fine beverages, it isn't the point of them the way snorting cocaine on the back of a toilet is just about getting high; but the that doesn't extend to cheap manky cider designed to yet to smashed. I don't believe heroin should be legalisd, or cocaine, or meth, because taking them doesn't involve "risks", it's pretty much a sure thing. Meth will rot you from the inside out, as will Acid, Cocaine WILL knacker your heart at about four times the normal rate.

With Pot and things like LSD I am more ambivelant, given that most of the people I know who did Hash stopped more or less when they became legal adults I'm not convinced that legalising it is particularly worthwile on a cost/benefit basis. My major problem with Hash is is can cause long term psychological problems and damage your short-term memory. I lived with a guy for a year, spent two weeks drinking someone else's milk because he forgot he wasn't buying his own (he thought he was), and that was the whole in his short term meory from smoking Hash as a teen. Still sharp otherwise, but he's stuck with that handicap now.

[Slyspy]

I would never claim to "know" about God, but thanks for the compliment anyway.

But, actually, I do know something about drugs and their effects on people. I come from a poor farming community and use of canabis and cocaine is 9or rather was) quite widespread. There were several men in their twenties who had heart attacks when I was a teenager, and I watched several friends descend into drug addiction, most of them are recovered now, but not all. Having said that, I also know alchoholics - fewer of those have recovered.

Here's the thing I don't understand, some of these drugs are much, much worse than alchohol. Also, "alchohol" is merely a component of many fine beverages, it isn't the point of them the way snorting cocaine on the back of a toilet is just about getting high; but the that doesn't extend to cheap manky cider designed to yet to smashed. I don't believe heroin should be legalisd, or cocaine, or meth, because taking them doesn't involve "risks", it's pretty much a sure thing. Meth will rot you from the inside out, as will Acid, Cocaine WILL knacker your heart at about four times the normal rate.

With Pot and things like LSD I am more ambivelant, given that most of the people I know who did Hash stopped more or less when they became legal adults I'm not convinced that legalising it is particularly worthwile on a cost/benefit basis. My major problem with Hash is is can cause long term psychological problems and damage your short-term memory. I lived with a guy for a year, spent two weeks drinking someone else's milk because he forgot he wasn't buying his own (he thought he was), and that was the whole in his short term meory from smoking Hash as a teen. Still sharp otherwise, but he's stuck with that handicap now.

The argument that drugs are worse than alcohol because some alcohol is in the form of "fine beverages" is laughable. If drugs of any type are illegal the so should alcohol. The abuse of any causes social problems. The argument I like is that if drugs are legalised then the "softer" types become more acceptable socially. "Harder" drugs will continue to be less socially acceptable because they are simply less social in nature. The abuse (and/or addiction to) any drug should be a health issue rather than a criminal issue IMO. Forgive me if this is a ramble, since I have been drinking (my drug of choice).

[rory_20_uk]

Cocaine is often considered a very "social" drug. The only one which isn't really is heroin as you're zonked... but even as I type people gather to drink vast quantities of ethanol, so why not gather for heroin?

If they were legal, better ways of delivery would quickly be found - a transdermal patch to keep you happy for the whole night out for example.

[Shibumi]

Cocaine is often considered a very "social" drug. The only one which isn't really is heroin as you're zonked... but even as I type people gather to drink vast quantities of ethanol, so why not gather for heroin?

If they were legal, better ways of delivery would quickly be found - a transdermal patch to keep you happy for the whole night out for example.

GIMME GIMME GIMME!!

You sir are my new hero.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The argument that drugs are worse than alcohol because some alcohol is in the form of "fine beverages" is laughable. If drugs of any type are illegal the so should alcohol. The abuse of any causes social problems. The argument I like is that if drugs are legalised then the "softer" types become more acceptable socially. "Harder" drugs will continue to be less socially acceptable because they are simply less social in nature. The abuse (and/or addiction to) any drug should be a health issue rather than a criminal issue IMO. Forgive me if this is a ramble, since I have been drinking (my drug of choice).

The procees by which beer is brewed produces alchohol, it is ultimately a side product of sterilising water to make it both drinkable and palatable.

Snorting something or sticking a neadle in you arm or snorting something up your nose is entirely different

[drone]

The procees by which beer is brewed produces alchohol, it is ultimately a side product of sterilising water to make it both drinkable and palatable.

Snorting something or sticking a neadle in you arm or snorting something up your nose is entirely different

For beer and wine, yes. How does distillation fit into the equation though?

[Centurion1]

What I find extraordinary is how ingrained myths about drugs are. Go talk about God, not drugs, that's something you seem to know about.

That was so unnecessarily douchey. Your a moderator cant you express your disbelief with what he said without expressing yourself in that manner.

Also Frags ACIN your whole scenario is absolutely bizarre and ridiculous to debate about. Frags the cartels come rolling into america with armored vehicles!!!!!!!!!!!! I lol'ed. Then simply to humor it I thought about what Phillip Morris could do. They could if they wanted to buy something like Blackwater contractors and literally rape the drug cartels with experienced veteran fighters and high tech equipment.

So much fail in this thread.

[jirisys]

Yeah, like when alcohol was decriminalized, all the alcohol mafias that were there before were just the tip of the iceberg and tons of alcohol mafias sprung upon that moment when there was no more profit to be gained and too much to be lost.

Seriously, how are people giving the same dumb arguments 60 years later?

~Jirisys ()

[Crazed Rabbit]

Fragony, your whole scenario is simply ridiculous.

The only reason cartels are powerful is because drugs are expensive, and drugs are only expensive because they're rare, and they're only rare because they're illegal.

There are already lots of people growing pot in the US, and there have been for much longer than the cartels have existed.

And nothing you spoke of has happened.

You say it's better to not rock the boat - but you live on a different freaking continent. You aren't in the middle of a warzone fueled by illegal drug sales (since the cartels get so much money from buyers in the US, legalization here would cripple them in Mexico) or in a country with civil liberties under siege.

Plus none of what you warn about will come to pass.

CR