War on Drugs has Failed... and in Other News the Sky is Blue

[drone]

Also look at the dependence numbers............... something is definitely far off on this graph. Your telling me it is easier to withdraw from things like meth and heroin than it is from tobacco? I'm sorry I know all the extensive propaganda regarding tobacco but come on thats ridiculous they dont have people going to rehab for cigarettes people go cold turkey all the time.

I don't think the graph is discussing withdrawal, only addiction/recidivism rates. The withdrawal from heroin is definitely more difficult, but once off the drug fewer go back than smokers. The recidivism rate for nicotine is insanely high.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think the graph is discussing withdrawal, only addiction/recidivism rates. The withdrawal from heroin is definitely more difficult, but once off the drug fewer go back than smokers. The recidivism rate for nicotine is insanely high.

What about "injury", that's very high for Alchohol as well, despite the fact that most drunken injuries are relativel minor, how about the things you can do by botching an injection, or is that shunted to a different catagory.

You can just go on picking it apart.

[Idaho]

Well, the other one's alchohol, isn't it. Sheesh, did someone actually have to say that? You have to drink heroic quantities to get to that point though.

The answer is alcohol and valium. Both legal, and positively encouraged by society.

How long do you have to smoke cannabis or take ecstasy before they can give you a deadly withdrawal?

[Idaho]

... how about the things you can do by botching an injection, or is that shunted to a different catagory.

You can just go on picking it apart.

And yet you do all the time. Cherry pick examples that turn round and bite you, then change topic. For example the damage heroin addicts do to themselves using poor injection techniques or poor equipment.

Heroin is relatively benign as a long term habit if managed properly. You can be a 20 year heroin addict, quit and then be fairly healthy. A 20 year booze habit and you're pretty much done for.

[Centurion1]

I don't think the graph is discussing withdrawal, only addiction/recidivism rates. The withdrawal from heroin is definitely more difficult, but once off the drug fewer go back than smokers. The recidivism rate for nicotine is insanely high.

So what. Heroin is also illegal and much harder to obtain. Obtaining nicotine is laughably easy. So of course it's recidivism rate is much worse.

[Shibumi]

So what. Heroin is also illegal and much harder to obtain. Obtaining nicotine is laughably easy. So of course it's recidivism rate is much worse.

Your statements at large have seem a bit uninformed. Heroin is rather easy to get a hold of, and if you are into it you will know several sources. You are right that it is harder to obtain than nicotine, but your point fails as it is easy enough to get a hold of for it not to be a factor.

I even heard people make money out of supplying it!

[Centurion1]

People make money out of supplying rare works of art too Hawking. I guess because people make money supplying it they have no trouble obtaining it.

I believe my statement was, "So what. Heroin is also illegal and much harder to obtain. Obtaining nicotine is laughably easy. So of course it's recidivism rate is much worse."

All that says to me oh mighty Scandinavian overlord is that heroin is illegal and harder to obtain than nicotine. Also your far from the truth. Heroin is not "easy to get a hold of" even if you live in some God forsaken place that grows poppies.

[Shibumi]

People make money out of supplying rare works of art too Hawking. I guess because people make money supplying it they have no trouble obtaining it.

I believe my statement was, "So what. Heroin is also illegal and much harder to obtain. Obtaining nicotine is laughably easy. So of course it's recidivism rate is much worse."

All that says to me oh mighty Scandinavian overlord is that heroin is illegal and harder to obtain than nicotine. Also your far from the truth. Heroin is not "easy to get a hold of" even if you live in some God forsaken place that grows poppies.

Living in a big city as I do, I could probably buy heroin about as quick as it would take me to get a hold of smokes (it is past midnight and stores are thus closed, heroin market are not bound by the same rules though). I can assure you heroin is easy to get a hold of, American underling (!?).

I got what you said, but my point remains. Heroine is easy enough to get a hold of that it will not be a factor for recidivism rates. I could get it in, say, 15 minutes. Someone into the whole thing could most likely get it more easily.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Replaced = different person. Who you're making friends with seems irrelevant at this point.

Ahh I see. But it seems you are coming from a fact of "humans are social, so they will make friends no matter what". I find that line of thinking flawed.

Then we'll say that we disagree.

Agreed. :D

What I am having in mind here, is a world where alcohol does not exist (never has, never will). Being the social creatures that humans are, they would still very much like to gather, like in the form of parties. The key here is that you cannot simply credit alcohol for things that happen when people are intoxicated. It would all happen - and does happen - without any form of intoxication. Some of the downsides, however, would not happen without alcohol; such as alcoholics, of course, but perhaps also DWI (that would of course depend on whether one would allow different sorts of drugs to exist in the thought experiment, and other things).

Rather than focusing solely on the negative effects of alchol, I don't think that alcohol actually contributes to much good. It is more of an icing on the cake where it works positively.

Just because it does happen without alcohol to a large extend doesn't necessarily mean that if there was never any alcohol ever to begin with that it would still happen with the same frequency as it does today.

A world that never had alcohol does not know of it's pleasurable effects. Our world does, and this makes it a large motivating factor to do things that people otherwise would not do. If there was never any alcohol then yeah, I'm sure everyone would be happy going to parties and doing something else instead. But the reality is that people know about alcohol and that it can be really fun and that it has some pleasurable side effects. So you have lots of people talking outside my dorm window going:

"Are you going to Jeff's tonight?"
"Is there alcohol?"
"Nah, Jeff got busted by the cops at his party last time so he is just inviting us over for pizza and stuff."
"I was planning on getting wasted tonight to celebrate, so I will pass this time."

I hear a variant of this kind of conversation everyday at my uni. The world of no alcohol imo can't be used to make a point because the world of no alcohol from my understanding of what you are saying has people unaware of what alcohol is at all.

[Crazed Rabbit]

People make money out of supplying rare works of art too Hawking. I guess because people make money supplying it they have no trouble obtaining it.

I believe my statement was, "So what. Heroin is also illegal and much harder to obtain. Obtaining nicotine is laughably easy. So of course it's recidivism rate is much worse."

Not to a heroin addict. Which is what we're talking about.

CR

[Idaho]

Ahh I see. But it seems you are coming from a fact of "humans are social, so they will make friends no matter what". I find that line of thinking flawed.


Agreed. :D


Just because it does happen without alcohol to a large extend doesn't necessarily mean that if there was never any alcohol ever to begin with that it would still happen with the same frequency as it does today.

A world that never had alcohol does not know of it's pleasurable effects. Our world does, and this makes it a large motivating factor to do things that people otherwise would not do. If there was never any alcohol then yeah, I'm sure everyone would be happy going to parties and doing something else instead. But the reality is that people know about alcohol and that it can be really fun and that it has some pleasurable side effects. So you have lots of people talking outside my dorm window going:

"Are you going to Jeff's tonight?"
"Is there alcohol?"
"Nah, Jeff got busted by the cops at his party last time so he is just inviting us over for pizza and stuff."
"I was planning on getting wasted tonight to celebrate, so I will pass this time."

I hear a variant of this kind of conversation everyday at my uni. The world of no alcohol imo can't be used to make a point because the world of no alcohol from my understanding of what you are saying has people unaware of what alcohol is at all.

You are making a point that argues against prohibition. People know about all kinds of intoxicants and they make plans to take them. Prohibition just creates a large number of negative side effects of this decision.

Basically prohibition only works when people choose to comply. In our countries they choose not to. And in my opinion they should have this right to choose.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You are making a point that argues against prohibition. People know about all kinds of intoxicants and they make plans to take them. Prohibition just creates a large number of negative side effects of this decision.

Basically prohibition only works when people choose to comply. In our countries they choose not to. And in my opinion they should have this right to choose.

I am not specifically targeting prohibition, I am arguing the position Viking was taking that if alcohol never existed, that people would still be having parties because we are social species. What I am saying is that that may be true but only because they have no knowledge of alcohol in the first place. In our reality, there is a thing called alcohol and people know about it and it drives people to parties because the knowledge of how much fun they can have while consuming it has become the main driving factor in a lot of social events.

[Fragony]

The answer is alcohol and valium. Both legal, and positively encouraged by society.

That's new to me, didn't know valium is addictive. But addiction and withdrawel isn't the only problem, cannabis can trigger a psychoses if you are sensitive to that, and xtc can make you flat out crazy and it can kill, seen it multiple times in the wild days, not pretty I can assure you. Most dangerous are meth and GHB probably, meth is an USA thing though it's just not here, don't even know what it is really, only that it's nasty. GHB is addiction is incredibly nasty and it's easy and cheap to make, no laboratory required a normal kitchen will do

[Ice]

That's new to me, didn't know valium is addictive. But addiction and withdrawel isn't the only problem, cannabis can trigger a psychoses if you are sensitive to that, and xtc can make you flat out crazy and it can kill, seen it multiple times in the wild days, not pretty I can assure you. Most dangerous are meth and GHB probably, meth is an USA thing though it's just not here, don't even know what it is really, only that it's nasty. GHB is addiction is incredibly nasty and it's easy and cheap to make, no laboratory required a normal kitchen will do

Did you miss the three page article I posted earlier in the thread about the bogey man, psychosis?

[Fragony]

Did you miss the three page article I posted earlier in the thread about the bogey man, psychosis?

Yes I did will read it, it's commonly accepted here, but I'm no expert

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Heroin is relatively benign as a long term habit if managed properly. You can be a 20 year heroin addict, quit and then be fairly healthy. A 20 year booze habit and you're pretty much done for.

A 20 year booze habit can also be virtually benign, so can a 60 year booze habit, or my Gandfather's 75 year booze habit. False eqivilence, because most people who drink are not really addicts, pretty much everyone who starts taking smakc ends up hooked and coming off is a physically as well as psychologically traumatic experience.

So I think you are the one cherry picking there.

[Centurion1]

How many people have well managed benign heroin or crack habits for God's sakes. The vast majority of young men and women come out of University having imbibed copious amounts of alcohol often to blackout points and have no trouble whatsoever.

[Ice]

So I think you are the one cherry picking there.

pot meet kettle

How many people have well managed benign heroin or crack habits for God's sakes. The vast majority of young men and women come out of University having imbibed copious amounts of alcohol often to blackout points and have no trouble whatsoever.

Just because they appear "normal" does not mean they have no problems. From what I've seen, college ingrains the idea that binge drinking is a socially acceptable way to act.

[Fragony]

How many people have well managed benign heroin or crack habits for God's sakes. The vast majority of young men and women come out of University having imbibed copious amounts of alcohol often to blackout points and have no trouble whatsoever.

Since the age of 18 or so, not heroin though. But tried almost everything and that 'one time and you are addicted' is bull. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't what you lot call crack not simply boiled out cocaine. Lotsa recreational users out there

Got a little secret for you, cannabis is hardly used here, but cocaine in weekends oh yeah, all types of people from businessmen to university professors. Cannabis is kinda frowned upon

[Idaho]

There are people with long term, well managed heroin and cocaine habits. There is just nu reason why you would have heard of them. One only has to look at the consumption rates based on supply interception statistics and the numbers reporting issues to know there is a MASSIVE unreported world of drug use out there.

One group well known for maintaining long term benign heroin habits are doctors. Clean supply, clean works, medical attention if needed.

[Idaho]

How many people have well managed benign heroin or crack habits for God's sakes. The vast majority of young men and women come out of University having imbibed copious amounts of alcohol often to blackout points and have no trouble whatsoever.

The vast majority of people I know left college after years of cannabis, ecstasy, alcohol, nicotine and amphetamine use with no particular ill effect.

[Fragony]

One only has to look at the consumption rates based on supply interception statistics and the numbers reporting issues to know there is a MASSIVE unreported world of drug use out there.

Oh yeah

[Tellos Athenaios]

Cannabis is kinda frowned upon

In the same way that cigarettes are. (I.e feel free to do that, but not in my face thank you very much.)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The vast majority of people I know left college after years of cannabis, ecstasy, alcohol, nicotine and amphetamine use with no particular ill effect.

The vast majority of those I know found alchohol sufficient. A significant minority enjoyed hash and a much smaller crowd went in for other more mind bending drugs.

[Idaho]

The vast majority of those I know found alchohol sufficient. A significant minority enjoyed hash and a much smaller crowd went in for other more mind bending drugs.

That's just it pvc. Its not that alcohol isn't "enough". Some people don't like alcohol. They don't like the taste or the high. They prefer to get high and taste cannabis. Threatening them with 5 years in prison is worse than pointless. Its destructive.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's just it pvc. Its not that alcohol isn't "enough". Some people don't like alcohol. They don't like the taste or the high. They prefer to get high and taste cannabis. Threatening them with 5 years in prison is worse than pointless. Its destructive.

Alchohol doesn't really give you a "high" now, does it, and Cannabis smoke smells like rotting flesh - even if it is ever made legal don't expect to be allowed to smoke a joint walking down the street.

[Centurion1]

The vast majority of people I know left college after years of cannabis, ecstasy, alcohol, nicotine and amphetamine use with no particular ill effect.

The vast majority of people in college do not do ecstasy and amphetamines. A majority does not even smoke pot. Same with nicotine and with nicotine it also depends where you are.

[Ice]

Alchohol doesn't really give you a "high" now, does it, and Cannabis smoke smells like rotting flesh - even if it is ever made legal don't expect to be allowed to smoke a joint walking down the street.

You are absolutely unbelievable.

[Centurion1]

Uh yeah i agree on the stench thing though I would say weed smells quite a bit like skunk.

[jirisys]

You don't have their budget, how would they not have a chance. You can't hurt them without cutting youself in a most painful way, Columia has been fighting the FARC for how long, and well Mexico. Why go any further than decriminalising the end of the foodchain. Keep it in Mexico.

@all who make fun of armoured vehicles, try google

Also, how do you intend to outprice them if you want to tax it?

Colombia, for the spelling impaired.

Ummm. You know the FARC was started as an oposition to US policies and influence and imperialism and colonialism in Colombia? No? Oh?! You thought they were a bunch of terrorist who hated everyone and were narcotrafficants?

Drugs give em big money, that why they use em.

Same as kindappings.

Here's an article for the knowledge impaired:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FARC#Financing

This debate never fails to produce some of the worst types of justifications for the status quo.

The questions are:

1 - Does criminalisation reduce drug use in society?
2 - Is the criminalisation/legalisation of drugs in our society based on a rational understanding of the evidence/damage of particular drugs?
3 - Is criminalising drug users effective in reducing their drug use?
4 - Does criminalisation of drugs reduce aquisitive crime?
5 - Should it be up to the state to decide in which way people get high?

I don't see how anyone can argue a yes to any of these.

As for PVC's claiming that booze is noble and all about taste, and all other drugs are just about getting high - that's just socialisation. But seeing as he is perhaps the most conservative person on the board, it's useful to have him setting up these straw men.

Nobody can say yes to any, because it's conclusively obvious that it's not the case.

Heh, I could get high on a nice marijuana tea from Peru, I plan to take one if I ever go there, but what is the difference of finnesse between a nice cognac and a nice weed tea?

How bout MDMA? It is a medicinal drug, great for cheering up someone or helping them cope with stress-related problems.

You see, heroin is only injected because it's a drug that's popularly injected. It's stupid to think that someone wouldn't swallow the damn thing or make enemas from 'em.

Alas, it's Fragony's thread, he should vote yes on decriminalization of 420!

When you give your government the power to finger point who is a criminal, then you have lost everything but your soul.

To bad it doesn't seem to exist!

~Jirisys ()