Askthepizzaguy Mafia II: The Revengening [Concluded]

[Kagemusha]

Thanks for the game everyone and Congrats to Chaotics and Renata for pulling the victory! It was great to play town after a long streak of mafia characters and it was great to be revived, while i could not help enough to secure a town victory.

[Jolt]

Well done to ACIN and the Chaotics. It was fun to see Earthling being spot on as to who were the chaotics so many turns away from the end, but well his credibility was already none so its a pity nobody would listen to him.

Though I was surprised how the hell did town actually went ahead with lynching Earthling when we already knew he was evil.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Thoughts on Basic Strategy in this game:


Bulletproof

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

One of the easiest to achieve, straightforward tactics in the game. Many people were naturally bulletproof, many people had bulletproof items, and self-defense actions were immediately available and relatively cheap at 50 credits for 50% chance of success.

Best idea:
Load bulletproof items onto people who were likely to be attacked, or folks who were already naturally bulletproof, or give these items to people who were massing credits. Bulletproof is a passive item or natural talent, and requires no credits or actions, so when someone is massing credits, they don't want to spend credits, but still want to have some kind of benefit going for them. Bulletproof is a good match for that. Those with lots of credits are likely to be attacked anyway, or stolen from.

Best combinations:
Bulletproof + retaliation (retaliation person survives while counterattacking)
Bulletproof + anti-Theft (Person massing credits is hard to steal from, and hard to destroy)

Counters:
Sephiroth, Kansas C. Smith, and Ganondorf all have OVERRIDE items, which can break through protection. A 100% OVERRIDE item is possible in this game, rendering bulletproof absolutely useless against such an ability.
The action can be roleblocked or bus driven away.

Defender

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Definitely much harder to achieve, as this action has no immediate benefit to oneself, and it has all the same pitfalls that self-defense has. The action can be roleblocked or bus driven away. Fewer people had this ability naturally, and fewer people had items that could perform this action. However, there were a few who could naturally perform this action, and they could quietly protect anyone in the game at 10% effectiveness every night. If they protect someone, they would show up in the writeup projecting a magical shield around someone.... almost certainly a pro-town action which would lead people to conclude that not only were you not murdering, you were busy being a good townie. The benefits make this an obviously good idea.

Best idea:

Combine all Defender items in the game, and pass the item to someone anonymous, cross your fingers and hope they're evil. Have them protect whoever is likely to be attacked.

Best combinations:
Bulletproof + Defender (Defend people, and try not to die yourself)
Bus Driver + Defender (Not only defend someone, but switch out another target entirely to ensure that override doesn't hurt them either)

Counters:

Sephiroth, Kansas C. Smith, and Ganondorf all have OVERRIDE items, which
can break through protection. A 100% OVERRIDE item is possible in this
game, rendering bulletproof absolutely useless against such an ability.

The action can be roleblocked or bus driven away.

Retaliation

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A rare natural talent, but very very useful in this game, as Serial Killers and Chaotics were likely to be killing every single night, and evil vigilantes were likely to be not of your faction. Score defensive kills and likely remove someone you don't want in the game anyway. This action cannot be purchased!

Best idea:

Combine all Retaliation items in the game, and pass them quietly to someone you think is going to be attacked, or someone who is already a natural retaliation person.

Best combinations:

Bulletproof + Retaliation (Obvious reasons)

Counters:

Sephiroth is IMMUNE to Retaliation.
This talent can be blocked, thus bypassing it.

Vigilantism

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A very common talent, but quite useful in eliminating Chaotics, Neutrals, Serial Killers, Goody Two-Shoes-es, and Mafia Rivals. Items are also commonplace, and vigilante attempts are viable right from the start at 70 credits. A bit expensive, but when combined with items, it's powerful.

Best idea:

Combine a vigilante item with a natural vigilante, have them purchase a vigilante action, which succeeds..... steal some credits, then perform another. Soon you will be able to vigilante kill FOR FREE every night. Load a few vigilante items onto this person and eventually they will take out some Chaotics or other undesirables. Make sure this person is a member of your mafia faction for bonus points. This move is desirable when trying to eliminate Screwtape without wasting another lynch. It will also prove that someone is doing something that night with their action. Go for the Vigilante + Roleblock combo.

Best combinations:

Vigilante attack + Roleblock (Bypass Self-defense action, Bypass Retaliation)
Vigilante attack + Bus Drive (Gain the initiative against Bus Drive actions by bus driving first, then killing your target before someone else can bus drive them away.)

Counters:

Sephiroth is completely IMMUNE to Vigilantism.
King Dodongo is largely IMMUNE to Vigilantism.
This talent can be blocked, defended against, or bus driven away.

Investigation

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A rare talent, but commonplace item and very inexpensive action (faction scan-wise). It is a simple matter to turn someone into a faction scanner, just purchase 3 faction scans at 25 credits apiece. You could also load up a bunch of faction scan/investigation items onto one person and have them perform free almost-always-effective detective scans, which reveal Faction, Claimed Role, and Activity (active or not), which is very useful information to gain FOR FREE. Someone should train up to be a natural investigator.

Best idea:
The faction scanner of a mafia faction should investigate with their item, and then purchase a faction scan, so they get 2 scans. locate as many allies as possible as fast as possible while training to be a free faction scanner. Once you can scan for free, do that and use the item for 2 free scans. Once all your allies and all your rivals are found, eliminate your rivals and win the game. Easiest victory ever?

Best combinations:
Faction Scan + Purchased Faction Scan on someone else (twice as many scans, train up to be a faction scanner)
Natural Scanning power + Several Items + Purchase scans (train up to be a full scanner)

Counters:
Sephiroth is completely IMMUNE to Detective Scans.

King Dodongo is resistant to scan.
Ganondorf is resistant to scan.
Crazed Rabbit is completely IMMUNE to Detective Scans.
This talent can be blocked, bus driven away, or fooled completely.

Roleblocking

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some folks were excellent natural roleblockers. Those with Morichro should have been given more roleblock items so they could roleblock players for free every night. Block an action was relatively cheap, and 2 successful roleblocks made you a natural 75% roleblocker. All it takes is 120 credits. Anybody could easily train up to be a natural roleblocker within just a few rounds of play!

Best idea:
Purchase a roleblock, Purchase a roleblock, then gain a couple roleblock items. Boom, free 95% roleblock action every single night.

Best combinations:
Vigilante + roleblock (Bypass defenses)
Roleblock + Defend (Remove someone from suspicion of being a certain murderer by blocking them that night. Then, defend them as well, so your non-suspect is still alive in the morning)

Counters:
Sephiroth is completely IMMUNE to roleblock
Reenkis Roinkis is completely IMMUNE to roleblock
This talent can be blocked or bus driven away.

Stealing

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Many people were naturally good thieves, and although there was only one thief item in the game, being a credit hog or item thief was probably one of the most powerful actions in the game. You could drain the chaotic members of vital credits, or even find incriminating items in their possession, and none of them were immune to such an action!

Best idea:
Steal credits, steal credits, steal credits, all of a sudden you can steal credits at 80% without any other boosts.
Item steal is relatively cheap at 70 credits, if you're a natural thief, give this a try... 2 successful item steals turns you into a 75% item thief, plus your 10% bonus makes you an 85% thief.
Steal credits is a purchased action, steal items is a skill action at that point, do both to amass as many items and credits as possible, denying them to your mafia rivals, and even find incriminating evidence that someone is a Chaotic by stealing their Chaotic-Only items!

Best combinations:
Purchase Steal Credits + Skill-based item steal (Steal + Steal = More steal!)
Bulletproof + Steal (Don't die while you're stealing)
Bus Drive self + Steal (Deflect steals, blocks, murders on yourself, while stealing!)
Steal Credits from someone with REGENERATION (You get credits, they get those credits back.... you can both get rich! It's a money-making scheme!)

Counters:
Some people are resistant to steal, but all of the guilty parties are not....

Bus Driving

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You couldn't purchase this action, so being naturally gifted at bus driving was something you wanted to know if you were or not. Some people had a natural 20% gift at bus driving. They needed to be given the bus driver items.

Best idea:
Bus Drive yourself to avoid being hit by Overdrive! Bus drive people you don't want to die, hope for the best.

Best combinations:
Bus Drive + Defend (Prove that you're too busy that night to be performing any murders, while protecting someone from murder!)
Bus Drive Self + Revive (can't hit me while I'm making more evil people return from the dead... )

Counters:
You can be roleblocked, but otherwise, this is one of the strongest tactics in the game. No one is immune to bus driver. You can be bus driver'd right back, though.

[Subotan]

In a game designed to be chaotic, I'm pleased that I was able to make my own small contribution.

“Well… I was thinkin’ of gettin’ our own ship, to be honest. We can afford a small one, but who needs size when ye have the bravest crew in existence? And besides, we’ll get Able Seamen of our own, especially when they find out the ship’s run by three of the Four Horsemen!” said AVSM.

“That sounds splendid!” said Subotan. “But which of us’ll be the Captain?”

“That’ll be me,” miotas interjected, “Seeing as how I have the most gold.”

The two others grumbled, then laughed good-naturedly. And so it was. In less than a week, the sloop a completely inoffensive name was christened, captained by miotas, with Subotan as First Mate and A Very Super Market as Quartermaster, with a willing crew ready to plunder to their hearts’ content.

Once a Horseman, always a Horseman.

[Zack]

According to the Chaotic QT, it was ACIN pretending to be Romanic - it was probably one of the most outrageous and daring moves attempted by a mafia player ever!

I can't seem to find the link to the Chaotic QT... am I missing something?

[Renata]

No -- Pizza didn't include it due to all the swearing. He says he'll give it if you PM him.

[Diamondeye]

Well done to ACIN and the Chaotics. It was fun to see Earthling being spot on as to who were the chaotics so many turns away from the end, but well his credibility was already none so its a pity nobody would listen to him.

Though I was surprised how the hell did town actually went ahead with lynching Earthling when we already knew he was evil.

I kind of pitied Earthling there, even though the walls-of-text were wearing down my nerves. It seemed like his text passed "critical mass" at some point and became pure gold. But everyone had stopped caring.

I can't seem to find the link to the Chaotic QT... am I missing something?

No -- Pizza didn't include it due to all the swearing. He says he'll give it if you PM him.

Yeah, ask and thou shalt receive. But there is a load of swearing in there

[Romanic]

Great ending. Only question I have is for Romanic - what the heck were those rants down Steam chat for? You turned up completely innocent and I bought everything you said.

Someone claims he's Romanic over Steam and you believe him? Even when we've been speaking together through MSN in the past and never on Steam?

*slaps* Arpeg!!!

[Earthling]

I had the most frustrating non-accomplishment of a personal goal ever. All that had to happen was for me not to get lynched there.

Turns out Roman's betraying the town antics did cost us the game, so many folks murdered and lynched just for their personal victories, which isn't too happy given the fake ending and all, though Sephiroth being immune to pretty much everything is still pretty insane, didn't have enough left to survive that contigency.

edit - the credit regenerating people is a huge surprise. I was wondering the whole time why the Chaotics weren't stealing more, would have led to a quicker victory given all the town's failings, but there was something in place that significantly benefitted the town if that were to happen. Could have been insanely useful for townies to steal from their fellow townies as well, too bad we never found any of that out as most of those guys were inactive.

[Romanic]

If by betraying town antics, you mean switching my vote to you from acin, even though I felt acin was the best candidate, I've already explained how I felt about that.

I'm being honest. acin is suspect #1 and Arpeg is #2, but as I said, I already won, unlike other players, so I don't feel it's right for me to dictate the lynch when most of the other players want to lynch you. They're trying to win, I'll let them control their destiny. What I'm certainly not gonna do is act selfishly to prove that I'm right and possibly screw their victory when there's nothing in the balance for me. Should be easy to understand.

Now drop it.

[Earthling]

No, you purposefully killed Subotan and Greyblades when we knew they were Innocents and had night actions and credits accounted for at that point, just for your own goals. You even admit it in your quicktopic. It's not that it's a bad play by you as it helped your own goals (though imo Renata's faction should have had auto-survival and couldn't be eliminated, but that decision was made long ago and wouldn't be taken back) but you knew you were hurting the town's chances of victory. Way, way too many townies were vig-killed and all, but even with some of the calls by, say, Beefy that we didn't all agree on at least actual suspects were being targeted. You killed off other townies for your own goals only and it did cost us in the end as we didn't have enough townies alive (not to mention only reviving your faction members which you knew could easily cost the town victory).

[God Emperor]

Naturally a gratulation to ACIN

[Romanic]

No, you purposefully killed Subotan and Greyblades when we knew they were Innocents and had night actions and credits accounted for at that point, just for your own goals. You even admit it in your quicktopic. It's not that it's a bad play by you as it helped your own goals (though imo Renata's faction should have had auto-survival and couldn't be eliminated, but that decision was made long ago and wouldn't be taken back) but you knew you were hurting the town's chances of victory.

Subotan was hit by a 10% vig attempt that I didn't expect to work. he was inactive for a while, and also the remaining Cosa Nostra, our faction enemy. Things would have been different if he was active.

As for lynching Greyblades, it's not true that "we knew he was innocent". I didn't want to lynch Greyblades on that day, but Kage convinced me to (I was going for Beefy, still a bad choice). Sure I was glad to get rid of the last Space Mafia, but if it had been my choice, it wouldn't have happened at that time. I'm saying this in the QT

Bah, Kage is insisting that we cannot kill Beefy because he's our vigilante. He wants to lynch Greyblades instead :P

I told him the truth: That I won't be hard to convince since lynching Greyblades lands me a win, and one also for BL. Not sure about you shlin, since you may not have completed your PG, but I will still try to revive you tomorrow so don't despair.

And I could show you the PMs of Kage about lynching Greyblades, but whatever. This is just to point that we weren't purposely killing and lynching to fulfill our own goals.

Sure we were somwhat chasing points to ensure ourselves a win, it's a collateral effect to Renata's win, making the Team victory not enough to win in itself, but we were not really putting our own goals (PG or faction) before the Team goal. Players are expected to play to win, and in this case we had to look for our other goals because of the setup. We were still working more toward the Team win than anything else, and the QT doesn't reflect everything as BL and I had long chats about the game. We could have secured our personal wins much quicker, by vigging Greyblades and Subotan (with real odds, not the lucky 10% I rolled on Subotan), but we didn't.

My conscience is clear about this game. I revived four Evil players and I actively contributed to find the chaotics with shlin, Kage and BL. I didn't betray my team, so don't try to paint me as a backstabber please.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Someone claims he's Romanic over Steam and you believe him? Even when we've been speaking together through MSN in the past and never on Steam?

*slaps* Arpeg!!!

lol, I wonder if the tactic would have worked on you....

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am off to work yet again, so if peeps want the QT link, perhaps some of our esteemed chaotic peoples would be able to give folks the link while I'm away.

[Diamondeye]

I am off to work yet again, so if peeps want the QT link, perhaps some of our esteemed chaotic peoples would be able to give folks the link while I'm away.

Of course Already gave Renata it.

[Greyblades]

Sure we were somwhat chasing points to ensure ourselves a win, it's a collateral effect to Renata's win, making the Team victory not enough to win in itself, but we were not really putting our own goals (PG or faction) before the Team goal. Players are expected to play to win, and in this case we had to look for our other goals because of the setup. We were still working more toward the Team win than anything else, and the QT doesn't reflect everything as BL and I had long chats about the game. We could have secured our personal wins much quicker, by vigging Greyblades and Subotan (with real odds, not the lucky 10% I rolled on Subotan), but we didn't.

My conscience is clear about this game. I revived four Evil players and I actively contributed to find the chaotics with shlin, Kage and BL. I didn't betray my team, so don't try to paint me as a backstabber please.

You shouldn't have been trying to kill me to begin with and earthlings lynch was just plain and utterly dumb. I have nothing more to say.

[ArpeggiateTHIS]

Someone claims he's Romanic over Steam and you believe him? Even when we've been speaking together through MSN in the past and never on Steam?

*slaps* Arpeg!!!

In mitigation Subo did encourage me to 'add romanic' (i think, maybe he didn't mention romanic by name), and i was slightly busy writing a cv at the time so my suspicions were left in a dark corner of my mind. How was i to know i'd be meddled with in such a way?

[Chaotix]

Awesome game ATPG, had a load of fun with it.

Our mafia team truly was assembled from among the best and brightest, with ACIN as the brilliant centerpiece.

ACIN had a great strategy and we rolled with it the whole time. He deserves major props for all the effort he put in.

Also good job to Renata. If you check the quicktopic, I believe we discussed killing you nightly but never quite got around to it until it was too late. Kinda the same with Romanic (who proved a formidable enemy), but that time we managed to luck our way out of it.

[Choxorn]

Well done to ACIN and the Chaotics. It was fun to see Earthling being spot on as to who were the chaotics so many turns away from the end, but well his credibility was already none so its a pity nobody would listen to him.

Though I was surprised how the hell did town actually went ahead with lynching Earthling when we already knew he was evil.

It's the strange thing about Earthling: He's always right about who the scum are, once he's exhausted every other possibility.

But yeah, you shouldn't have lynched him. The same thing happened in the LOTR Mafia over at CFC towards the end, in which he annoyed people for basically the entire game and eventually got lynched for it. In all fairness, we also lost that because the Isengard mafia leader, Saruman was so amazingly good at hiding that almost nobody supected he was Saruman until the end of the game, and because of general random luck and unintentional host bias, but still.

[Renata]

Awesome game ATPG, had a load of fun with it.

Our mafia team truly was assembled from among the best and brightest, with ACIN as the brilliant centerpiece.

ACIN had a great strategy and we rolled with it the whole time. He deserves major props for all the effort he put in.

He does indeed. I just kinda want to give him a wedgie or something. :)

Also good job to Renata. If you check the quicktopic, I believe we discussed killing you nightly

I think you did, quite literally. I do appreciate that you felt bad about the prospect.

but never quite got around to it until it was too late. Kinda the same with Romanic (who proved a formidable enemy), but that time we managed to luck our way out of it.

All those failed attacks against Romanic were a thing to behold.

[naut]

The one time ACIN is scum y'all give him a free ride. Well played sir.

I'm not going to lie, I didn't enjoy the set-up of this game, and it showed in my play style = kill regardless, I felt the balance was a little off.

[thefluffyone93]

I have conflicting emotions......

First....


To ATPG for a great game, as well as the Chaotic team for being such good players.

of course, I'm also

because we lost....
AND because Renata stole my item!



EDIT
OI! When did I pass 1000 posts?!?

[Askthepizzaguy]

The one time ACIN is scum y'all give him a free ride. Well played sir.

About that:

BTW, ACIN, I was reading over the Star Wars commentary, and there are several lines that made me crack up. There's one part where ATPG says something along the lines of "ACIN is impossible to read, if he gets to be mafia in a game he will make it all the way to the end".

And then in the thread you say "One day, I will be the mafia and finally have my lulz". Hilarious that it happens to be the next ATPG Huge Game that you get the role. And the big one at that.

It's called foreshadowing...

Oh yeah, what a coincidence that was.

At the time, ACIN had zero games as mafia under his belt. Then he was mafia for a whole half a day and he ends up dead (by my hands, iirc). I wanted to see what he would do if he actually got a scum role, because people seem to ignore ACIN as a threat.

It's like pevergreen; he hadn't been scum in a while and I said if he was ever scum, he'd be able to make it almost all the way through a game untouched. A couple months later, it's the Council of Villains game where he ends up being the last scum standing and finally gets taken down after umpteen rounds.

Some people would be really really dangerous as mafia because y'all ignore them and write off their odd behavior as them being their usual odd selves.

I'm not going to lie, I didn't enjoy the set-up of this game, and it showed in my play style = kill regardless, I felt the balance was a little off.

I would be delighted to talk balance with peeps, and find out what people liked and didn't like about the game. I noticed several players didn't seem to enjoy themselves. I feel the concept is worthy, perhaps the execution not so much. If I do another one like this, I want to eliminate the less fun aspects.

Unfortunately I am really busy atm, I will have to put this off for a day or two.

But I am sad to see some people not enjoying the game. Complex games aren't everyone's cup of tea. Balance, though; I thought it was very well balanced, given how every single mafia team survived a long, long time, and the game came down to what was basically a draw decided by dice rolls. I would like to hear where the balancing issues were.

[Zack]

Can someone give me the link to the scum QT?

[Beefy187]

Bad performance by me as a town. I owe some people apologies for killing them.
But I have to admit, I rather enjoyed killing people

Congratulations Renata and Chaotics. Well played

[Choxorn]

I wish you'd found me at some point- I could have used that chainsaw to complete my PG and hack everyone to pieces not kill people randomly.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Wow, what a game.

Congrats Renata and the Chaotics.

WWBAGNFARB

CR

[Romanic]

lol, I wonder if the tactic would have worked on you....

I doubt it very much.

[...]
Also good job to Renata. If you check the quicktopic, I believe we discussed killing you nightly but never quite got around to it until it was too late. Kinda the same with Romanic (who proved a formidable enemy), but that time we managed to luck our way out of it.

Yeah, yeah... Congrats to you also, formidable opponents, all of you chaotics, but hey, even if ATPG hasn't confirmed it yet, I'm also a winner, for completing my PG and FG. I'm a winner with you, I was *not* defeated so let's hug and dance all together, with Renata and BL.

[Ironside]

Congratulations and well played ACIN, and the rest of the Chaotic team, even if I'm unsure of how many of you who did actually win.

Looks like I had you pinned as a suspect at the point of my death already, although I didn't write it out properly. Three people would find busdriving unusually good at that point. The killer, the busdriver and the one protected.

It evens out on my successful 6% survival chance on the first round I suppose.

qt link please. That one is going to be interesting.

And time for a proper congratulation to Renata as well, my brooding for that is over.

Edit: Link given. Thank you ATPG.

Second Edit: What, I survived 2 attacks on a 10% chance of survival? Did you forget to mention that second attack ATPG? Didn't get a pm about it.