Conspiracy nuts

[gaelic cowboy]

Dear God.

Before some of you go spouting off I would encourage you to actually read the 18th amendment



I bolded it AND put it in red. It did not ban the use of alcohol for other purposes

Also prhobition was a done deal with or w/o SO because it comes out of the insanity that is 19th century American protastentism

Which....wait for it....is the exact religion Rockefeller was brought up in.

Let's also forget the fact that by the time prhobition passed SOs monopoly had been smashed

Also, what would be eaiser for Rockfeller...invest in alcohol as fuel....or throw his weight behind religous fundamentilsts (which he did only because he was one) and let that sweet train ride.

There is no logic in the arguement

He is spot on with the sham that was the 2007–2008 world food price crisis although it was hardly a conspiracy twas more economics and shortsighted politicians that caused it.

[Populus Romanus]

American support of death squads during the Salvadoran Civil War is a myth. There was not even indirect support, this was disproven by a Senate investigation. The US started giving military aid and financial support to the Salvadoran government in return for their ending support of the death squads. Yet the falsehood of American CIA death squads continues.

[Fisherking]

Dear God.

Before some of you go spouting off I would encourage you to actually read the 18th amendment



I bolded it AND put it in red. It did not ban the use of alcohol for other purposes

Also prhobition was a done deal with or w/o SO because it comes out of the insanity that is 19th century American protastentism

Which....wait for it....is the exact religion Rockefeller was brought up in.

Let's also forget the fact that by the time prhobition passed SOs monopoly had been smashed

Also, what would be eaiser for Rockfeller...invest in alcohol as fuel....or throw his weight behind religous fundamentilsts (which he did only because he was one) and let that sweet train ride.

There is no logic in the arguement

It may not have banned it for other purposes in text but it basically did so in enforcement.

There is no difference between drinking Alcohol and fuel.

So called Wood Alcohol was okay but it is much harder to make and more expensive.

Prohibition had the desired effect, however. After it you only found it as the essential additive to gasoline. ‘Ethanol’

Each state then decided on whether to allow its sale and manufacture.


Sorry, I am not going into John D.s motives and history. The temperance movement had been around since the 1700s but did not seriously catch on politically until he put his money behind it.

For much of his life he was viewed as an evil and mean man. All of his motives were scrutinized and viewed with skepticism. The press then rehabilitated his image in the 1930s. They lauded him for passing out dimes to children during the depression.

Many would still argue, with some circumstantial proof, that all of his philanthropical endeavors and those of the Rockefeller Institute had ulterior motives.

These can nether be proved or disproved, and so it goes on.

[Strike For The South]

These can nether be proved or disproved, and so it goes on.

This is where you are blatantly wrong. It can be proven within reason . The man left memiors, paper trails, speeches.

Simply b/c you choose to disreagard the most logical explanation for the fanciful B grade hollywood plot does not mean it can't be proven

[Fisherking]

This is where you are blatantly wrong. It can be proven within reason . The man left memiors, paper trails, speeches.

Simply b/c you choose to disreagard the most logical explanation for the fanciful B grade hollywood plot does not mean it can't be proven

I am so sorry. This stuff used to be taught. I guess all my teachers and professors were just windbag conspiracy nuts and were tainted from living through the time.

I am sure he must have kept meticulous documents telling all his motives and how it was for the good of mankind.

I am sure that he, Morgan, Chase and the rest only had your interests at heart.

Of course to believe that it helps if you were born yesterday.


Actually none of us want to believe that there could be conspiracies. Even though we see them and even participate in them in small ways. To think that powerful people would be working against your interests is very unsettling and we much prefer to think that everyone is good is much more appealing.

But powerful people try to get their way even though it may not be for the good of all men. And institutions often do things seemingly with out reason.

What sort of monsters thought up and conducted the Tuskegee Experiment? What kind of leaders expose their troops to chemical and biological agents? What kind of lawmakers write laws that harm most of their constituents for the benefit of a very few?

You can pretend that things like that don’t happen and that no one would conspire to put their interests before the good of others if you like. It may make you feel better.

But some times powerful interests may be working against you. You might want to watch out for those.

[jirisys]

American support of death squads during the Salvadoran Civil War is a myth. There was not even indirect support, this was disproven by a Senate investigation. The US started giving military aid and financial support to the Salvadoran government in return for their ending support of the death squads. Yet the falsehood of American CIA death squads continues.

And my family killed 175614 people, but I made an investigation and I concluded that we didn't. Can't trust anything the US government says on it's own actions. Or any government whatsoever who investigates itself.

In 1992, D'Aubuisson died at 47 of esophageal cancer. He was never tried for any of his crimes. In 1986, ex-US ambassador Robert White reported to the United States Congress that "there was sufficient evidence" to convict D'Aubuisson of planning and ordering Archbishop Romero's assassination, describing D'Aubuisson as a pathological killer, as early as his 1984 Salvadoran presidential run.

Because the death squads involved were found to have been soldiers of the Salvadoran military, which was receiving U.S. funding and training during the Carter and Reagan administrations, these events prompted some outrage in the U.S, however human rights activists criticized U.S. administrations for denying Salvadoran government links to the death squads. Veteran Human Rights Watch researcher Cynthia J. Arnson writes that "particularly during the years 1980–1983 when the killing was at its height (numbers of killings could reach as far as 35,000), assigning responsibility for the violence and human rights abuses was a product of the intense ideological polarization in the United States. The Reagan administration downplayed the scale of abuse as well as the involvement of state actors. Because of the level of denial as well as the extent of U.S. involvement with the Salvadoran military and security forces, the U.S. role in El Salvador- what was known about death squads, when it was known, and what actions the United States did or did not take to curb their abuses- becomes an important part of El Salvador’s death squad story.”.

But, let's look at some of the other achievements of the US government in communist Central America and South America.

Operation Condor was a campaign of political repression involving assassination and intelligence operations officially implemented in 1975 by the right-wing dictatorships of the Southern Cone of South America.
(...)
Operation Condor, which took place in the context of the Cold War, had the tacit approval of the United States. In 1968, U.S. General Robert W. Porter stated that "In order to facilitate the coordinated employment of internal security forces within and among Latin American countries, we are...endeavoring to foster inter-service and regional cooperation by assisting in the organization of integrated command and control centers; the establishment of common operating procedures; and the conduct of joint and combined training exercises." Condor was one of the fruits of this effort.

Honduras had death squads active through the 1980s, the most notorious of which was Battalion 3–16. Hundreds of people, teachers, politicians, and union bosses were assassinated by government-backed forces. Battalion 3-16 received substantial support and training from the United States Central Intelligence Agency.

Guatemala has had death squads active since the 1960s up through the 1990s. Historian Greg Grandin remarks that "Washington, of course, publicly denied its support for paramilitarism, but the practice of political disappearances took a great leap forward in Guatemala in 1966 with the birth of a death squad created, and directly supervised, by U.S. security advisors. Throughout the first two months of 1966, a combined black-ops unit made up of police and military officers working under the name "Operation Clean-Up"-a term US counterinsurgents would recycle elsewhere in Latin America—carried out a number of extrajudicial executions... Over the next two and a half decades, U.S.-funded and -trained Central American security forces would disappear tens of thousands of citizens and execute hundreds of thousands more."

Oh, are you still defending the US?

~Jirisys ()

[Strike For The South]

For the last time it is not about being "good" or my "best interests"

It is about what is most logical.

I've yet to find a reputable source on alcohol theory. I am content with Rockellfers biographers.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh, are you still defending the US?

~Jirisys ()

Please post your sources, even if they're from a poorly sourced wiki page. I don't want to have to go through the trouble of finding them.

Also, selective quoting is deceptive, such as omitting this line that came right before your second unattributed wiki quote on El Salvador.

Funding for the squads came primarily from right-wing Salvadoran businessmen and landowners.

Not that it matters very much, because the quote - even taken by itself - says absolutely nothing definitive about US involvement with the supposed 'death squads'. It only quotes a Human Rights Watch activist's tentative assessment that a the greater US role in El Salvador might be an important element in the 'death squad' story. It says a lot that the wiki page author couldn't even find a hack from HRW to place blame for the squads with the US. And that's because the most direct involvement the US government had with the 'death squads' was in trying to end them.

Here's a more complete wiki summary of America's involvement in the Salvadoran Civil War.

In December 1983, the Reagan administration promised President Álvaro Magaña an additional US $100 million in military aid if his government took action against the death squads and dismissed from their official posts or transferred abroad at least eight armed forces officers and one civilian who had been identified as death squad leaders. Vice President George H.W. Bush personally visited San Salvador, however, to deliver the more decisive message that aid would be cut off if the abuses did not stop. The United States specifically asked for a halt to secret arrests by the three security forces and demonstrable progress in the court cases involving the murders of the churchwomen and the AIFLD advisers.

In response, senior Salvadoran officials and the armed forces leadership pledged a major crackdown on right-wing death squad activity and asked the United States for technical and investigative assistance in dealing with these groups. The Salvadoran Army also quietly dismissed or transferred abroad the officers whose names were on the United States list of suspects. In addition, the PN arrested a captain who had been linked to the murder of the two AIFLD advisers, but he was held on charges unrelated to the killings.

Despite these actions, the existence of the death squads remained a controversial issue in the United States in the mid 1980s . In congressional testimony in February 1984, former United States ambassador to El Salvador Robert E. White identified six wealthy Salvadoran landowners, then living in exile in Miami, as the principal financiers of the death squads. Critics of the Reagan administration's Salvadoran policy also alleged that the United States had indirectly supported the death squads. After a six-month investigation, however, the United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence reported in October 1984 that there was no evidence to support such allegations.

In 1984 and 1985, President José Napoleón Duarte demoted several military officers with alleged links to death squads. During the 1984-88 period, the civilian government and armed forces reiterated their opposition to death squad activity and their commitment to dealing with the problem. As a result, death squad killings declined sharply.

The US support of the military regime in El Salvador was based in the utilitarian Cold War policies of the time and is certainly debatable. However, there is no evidence that the US ordered, assisted, or supported the regime's use of 'death squads'. In actuality, the Reagan Administration applied considerable pressure on the regime to end such extrajudicial practices. Unfortunately, the US could never exert as much control over its proxies as the USSR, leading to rogue actions such as the Salvadoran 'death squads' which put Washington in very tricky predicaments. Expect to see US trained Iraqi and Afghani groups carry out some nasty activities after US forces leave.

The rest of your quotes do not seem to have anything to do with El Salvador.

[Askthepizzaguy]

As soon as I saw the Rosie O'Donnell video (not the video, the tab with the name "Rosie O'Donnell" in the title...) I immediately shut the tab.

The last thing I need is a shrill liberal wacko telling me that Bush orchestrated the disaster. (I have heard her rants before)



I hope any conservatives and moderates understand, she doesn't speak for us. She speaks for her. Her crazy, crazy self.

Okay? She's the Glenn Beck of liberalism. She's nothing and nobody. She's right on some issues (gay rights) but otherwise, total nutball.

[jirisys]

Post

Here's a paragraph from the same article.

Despite these actions, the existence of the death squads remained a controversial issue in the United States in the mid 1980s . In congressional testimony in February 1984, former United States ambassador to El Salvador Robert E. White identified six wealthy Salvadoran landowners, then living in exile in Miami, as the principal financiers of the death squads. Critics of the Reagan administration's Salvadoran policy also alleged that the United States had indirectly supported the death squads. After a six-month investigation, however, the United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence reported in October 1984 that there was no evidence to support such allegations.

And again.

Defenders of President Reagan's Latin American foreign policy say that defending U.S. national security necessitated supporting such a military government, and that the FMLN's military efforts, including terrorism, seriously threatened the Salvadorean Government, and — by implication — the United States, itself. In a televised national address on May 9, 1984, President Reagan stated: San Salvador is closer to Houston, Texas, than Houston is to Washington, D.C. Central America is America; it's at our doorstep, and it has become a stage for a bold attempt, by the Soviet Union, Cuba, and Nicaragua, to install Communism by force throughout the hemisphere.[31]

The U.S. State Department supported the President's contentions, detailing the international Communist conspiracy connections among the Salvadorean FMLN, Sandinista Nicaragua, Communist Cuba, and the Soviet Union, in the White Paper: Communist Interference in El Salvador explaining that — in the Russo-American Cold War context — the U.S. sided as it did, because that was its viable middle-path in the Right-wing vs. Left-wing Salvadoran Civil War. Publicly, Reagan supported President Duarte's Government, because it worked with some success, to deal with the serious political and economic problems that most concern the people of El Salvador.[32]

In 2002, a BBC article about President George W. Bush's visit to El Salvador, on the 22nd anniversary of Archbishop Romero's assassination, reported that U.S. officials say that President [George H.W.] Bush's policies set the stage for peace, turning El Salvador into a democratic success story, but challenged his claim's validity, because of the thousands killed by a U.S.-sponsored military government directly aided by U.S. military advisors in training and supporting the death squad leaders.[33]

Negligence is still a crime.

Does that really matter? Not supporting death squads on one country yet training them on others is really meaningless.

~Jirisys ()

~Jirisys ()

[Banquo's Ghost]

jirisys, as PJ noted, your arguments would be better served if you actually posted the links to your source material instead of just copying the text with no attribution.

In addition to weakening your argument (you could have written the quotes yourself) you are also playing fast and loose with copyright law (and the rules of this forum) by not attributing the material to its author. It's only fair to the originator to have their work recognised.

Thank you kindly.

[Fisherking]

For the last time it is not about being "good" or my "best interests"

It is about what is most logical.

I've yet to find a reputable source on alcohol theory. I am content with Rockellfers biographers.

What criteria would us use for what is logical?

What is the logic for vaccinating minority babies with experimental vaccines without telling anyone?

What is the logic in exposing people at random to NBC agents in the New York subways or releasing Nerve Agents into the air in Utah to drift with the wind and you can see what dies?

At least with Rockefeller and Hurst the motive was money. They did what many others would have done had they the power and money to do so. They got laws passed that gave them more money and power.

It is what lobbyists and spin doctors do every day.

It is only a conspiracy if you think their intent was malevolent. I doubt very few set out to be a villain.

As to governmental and institutional logic it is hard to put your self in a mind set to see the good of what they thought they were doing but I am sure they thought it was for the best in some convoluted way or other.

[PanzerJaeger]

Here's a paragraph from the same article.



And again.

And again.... what, exactly?

You've again posted wiki quotes that do nothing to support the notion that the US supported 'death squads' in El Salvador. On the other hand, I quoted the same wiki page which details some rather definitive evidence that the US was not only unsupportive of the 'death squads' but made serious efforts to stop them.

Negligence is still a crime.

That's quite a departure from your initial wiki snow job. Considering the fact that US pressure largely ended government backing of 'death squad' activity, I don't even think you could call it negligence.

Does that really matter? Not supporting death squads on one country yet training them on others is really meaningless.

~Jirisys ()

~Jirisys ()

So we've gone from 'yes they did!' to 'well, they were negligent' and settled with 'they might not have in El Salvador, but they did in other places'.

That would be fine, I suppose, if Populus Romanus had made a broader claim. However, he mentioned the specific and widely disseminated belief that the US supported 'death squads' in El Salvador, which is demonstrably false. (Technically, I don't think such a belief constitutes a conspiracy theory, more like propaganda.)

[Fragony]

I thought the US-backed deathsquads were pretty much an undisputed fact. Where there is smoke there is fire, things are are always shady I wouldn't simply disregard US influence (or better western) so easily

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think there's a chance Sasquatch exists.

CR

[jirisys]

jirisys, as PJ noted, your arguments would be better served if you actually posted the links to your source material instead of just copying the text with no attribution.

In addition to weakening your argument (you could have written the quotes yourself) you are also playing fast and loose with copyright law (and the rules of this forum) by not attributing the material to its author. It's only fair to the originator to have their work recognised.

Thank you kindly.

Wikipedia and it's authors.

And again.... what, exactly?

You've again posted wiki quotes that do nothing to support the notion that the US supported 'death squads' in El Salvador. On the other hand, I quoted the same wiki page which details some rather definitive evidence that the US was not only unsupportive of the 'death squads' but made serious efforts to stop them.

That's quite a departure from your initial wiki snow job. Considering the fact that US pressure largely ended government backing of 'death squad' activity, I don't even think you could call it negligence.

So we've gone from 'yes they did!' to 'well, they were negligent' and settled with 'they might not have in El Salvador, but they did in other places'.

That would be fine, I suppose, if Populus Romanus had made a broader claim. However, he mentioned the specific and widely disseminated belief that the US supported 'death squads' in El Salvador, which is demonstrably false. (Technically, I don't think such a belief constitutes a conspiracy theory, more like propaganda.)

Wait. So the govt of the US paid the salvadoran army to destroy communism, and then; when the death squads got out of hand, they did not simply cut the aid. But offered MORE money so they would be disbanded? Isn't that a bit proposterous.

I doubt you having much knowledge of that subject after reading a few wikipedia pages. I have studied this subject for around 4 or 5 years now.

And I admit, directly, they did not support the death squads. But did they cut off the money supply to those that did? Or did anything against the leaders living in the US? D'Abbouison actually appeared on US television, he who was one of the leaders of ARENA, a party which incited the rise of the late death squads.

Let's not forget that the US supplied the government with firearms and income, and these death squads were based upon the US strategy at the time, a civilian branch separated from government with the aid of businessmen and government ordnance.

In fact, Batallon Atlacatl, the responsible of the El Mozote Massacre was trained by the US and was actually part of the salvadoran military.

http://www.icrc.org/themissi.nsf/0/d...ocument&Click=

But really, if I wanted to get rid of a criminal, I wouldn't keep giving money to his gang, I would stop, not say "oh yeah, here's 5 million dollars, just stop with the killing and whatnot."

~Jirisys ()

[Gregoshi]

I think there's a chance Sasquatch exists.

I don't know about Sasquatch, but Big Foot does.

[jirisys]

I don't know about Sasquatch, but Big Foot does.

I don't know about Big Foot, but Yeti does.

Wait... You don't mean this Foot. Do you?

~Jirisys ()

[a completely inoffensive name]

I am sure he must have kept meticulous documents telling all his motives and how it was for the good of mankind.

I am sure that he, Morgan, Chase and the rest only had your interests at heart.

Of course to believe that it helps if you were born yesterday.

Lol, well if you are going to lump all the bankers and robber barons together as a homogenous group...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_Wealth

So yeah, if you want to generalize and put forth a very shoddy argument then you have to somehow explain away that book, which according to you would apply to all of them since you seem so keen on putting them in one big category.

[Fisherking]

Lol, well if you are going to lump all the bankers and robber barons together as a homogenous group...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_Wealth

So yeah, if you want to generalize and put forth a very shoddy argument then you have to somehow explain away that book, which according to you would apply to all of them since you seem so keen on putting them in one big category.

Invoking Andrew Carnegie must be your idea of a joke.

Wealth was an essay he wrote in 1889 and he mostly tried to live by it.

He was implicated in the Johnstown Flood which many said was a conspiracy, as it just happened to wipe out his chief competitor but it was most likely poor maintenance.

If it wasn’t, then Henry Frick would be the man to examine. Frick was his partner and was rather heavy handed in his methods (gross understatement). When ever there was trouble Carnegie seemed to be out of town and Frick did the dirty work.

When he sold the business it was to that paragon of virtue, J. P. Morgan.

[Major Robert Dump]

When the great tornado of 1999 ripped apart OKC, I painted on the debris of my house "Hey Mr President, Hows this for a blow job?" and I would not take it down when the secret service asked me to when he came to visit Tinker Air Base. Bill Clinton subsequently tried to have me assasinated, primarily through the means of having disease infected prostitutes solicit me for unprotected sex, to which I obliged. However, I am immune to said diseases, due primarily to secret government experiments which are another conspiracy theory altogether.

[Adrian II]

When the great tornado of 1999 ripped apart OKC, I painted on the debris of my house "Hey Mr President, Hows this for a blow job?"

[Ronin]

However, I am immune to said diseases, due primarily to secret government experiments which are another conspiracy theory altogether.

Tiger Blood is a secret government experiment??

[Fisherking]

When the great tornado of 1999 ripped apart OKC, I painted on the debris of my house "Hey Mr President, Hows this for a blow job?" and I would not take it down when the secret service asked me to when he came to visit Tinker Air Base. Bill Clinton subsequently tried to have me assasinated, primarily through the means of having disease infected prostitutes solicit me for unprotected sex, to which I obliged. However, I am immune to said diseases, due primarily to secret government experiments which are another conspiracy theory altogether.

Knowing what Clinton visits were like I can almost believe that.

Except if he was going to have you done in you would have been a suicide. Likely by beating your self over the head with a toilet seat until you were dead.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Right, there are no government conspiracies. Only Government Operations.

MKULTRA is the most famous but there are a whole laundry list of other MK and DOD operations which experimented on both US and Canadian Citizens.

Then we have the Projects. You ever hear of the Tuskegee Experiment?

Did you know that Gulf War Syndrome arose from government experiments on its own soldiers?

They admitted in 1996 that they had exposed them to various agents.

The CDC also conducted experiments using experimental vaccines on 1500 six-month old babies from black and Hispanic families with out ever informing parents. That was 1990.

Do you think they have stopped?

So what's your point?

[jirisys]

So what's your point?

Government keeps secrets!

~Jirisys ()

[TheLastDays]

Government keeps secrets!

~Jirisys ()

Say it isn't true!

In other news, I am a big fan of that conspiracy theory guy that claims the moon isn't real, it's a big disk that's put up on an elaborate stand to... well he didn't really give any reason why anyone would make the effort to hang it up there... I don't mean I believe it but it is by far the most hilarious conspiracy theory I have ever read or heard about.

http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

[Vladimir]

Pfft! Next thing you'll try to tell me is the Belgium really exists, and Santa Claus too!

[Centurion1]

When the great tornado of 1999 ripped apart OKC, I painted on the debris of my house "Hey Mr President, Hows this for a blow job?" and I would not take it down when the secret service asked me to when he came to visit Tinker Air Base. Bill Clinton subsequently tried to have me assasinated, primarily through the means of having disease infected prostitutes solicit me for unprotected sex, to which I obliged. However, I am immune to said diseases, due primarily to secret government experiments which are another conspiracy theory altogether.

LMAO