Liberals did not destroy the American school system.

[Major Robert Dump]

I have never understood why on earth budget posts should be financed by a specific tax.

All the tax money collected should go into one big pile of cash. Then distributed. Earmarking taxes is a retarded practice.

It does make sense, but it also does not.

Something local, like a school, gets funded by local taxes. It encourages positive migration, participation in community and ownership of what is happening around you.

But is it equitable? No. Poor neighborhoods have less funding becuase there is less property ownership and more concetrated populations. I might also point out that parent participation in school activities is far lower than in neighborhhods where parents pay in more taxes, but as discussed earlier, parental participation can cause problems, too.

But how do we change it? Do we make a school paid for by successful people worse in order to improve a school in a poor neighborhood? That's a really good way to get people to move the hell out of their district, city or state. In fact, thats a good way to make people put their kids in private schools. If I am serious about the education of my kids, and I pay $1900 in property tax per year and it goes into a pool for the "greater good" of all schools and not to my kids school, thats gonna rub me the wrong way.

On the other hand, kids shouldn't suffer because their parents are poor.

Im confuse

[Major Robert Dump]

Here is some more blame. So much for not giving poor kids a fair shake, eh?


http://www.ajc.com/news/investigatio...g-1001375.html

[CountArach]

Here is some more blame. So much for not giving poor kids a fair shake, eh?


http://www.ajc.com/news/investigatio...g-1001375.html

Ah the joys of performance-based pay for teachers.

[lars573]

It does make sense, but it also does not.

Something local, like a school, gets funded by local taxes. It encourages positive migration, participation in community and ownership of what is happening around you.

But is it equitable? No. Poor neighborhoods have less funding becuase there is less property ownership and more concetrated populations. I might also point out that parent participation in school activities is far lower than in neighborhhods where parents pay in more taxes, but as discussed earlier, parental participation can cause problems, too.

But how do we change it? Do we make a school paid for by successful people worse in order to improve a school in a poor neighborhood? That's a really good way to get people to move the hell out of their district, city or state. In fact, thats a good way to make people put their kids in private schools. If I am serious about the education of my kids, and I pay $1900 in property tax per year and it goes into a pool for the "greater good" of all schools and not to my kids school, thats gonna rub me the wrong way.

On the other hand, kids shouldn't suffer because their parents are poor.

Im confuse

Counterpoint: Canada's school system. It's funded in a way similar to what you describe, and it's still better than the US system. The feds collect taxes. And cut each province a big stinky cheque each year to fund that provinces school system. Which then filters down to the local level through provincial education ministries, and elected school boards. Which has the effect of making it less easy to run to a better school.

Not to say it's perfect. Provinces tend to have different levels of effectiveness in education. And elected school boards can be crooked or otherwise none-functional. Sometimes a whole board can be canned for race baiting and infighting.

[HoreTore]

This would perhaps justify its own thread, but....

Is solidarity an alien concept to yanks?

[Tellos Athenaios]

I pay $1900 in property tax per year and it goes into a pool for the "greater good" of all schools and not to my kids school, thats gonna rub me the wrong way.

Why in particular? You don't mind that the $1900 property tax pool is also used to maintain the entire sewage system and not just the connection with your own toilets...?
Granted the USA tax system works rather different from what we are used to here, but as far as the school funding goes that is exactly what the case used to be in the late 18th/early 19th century here and it was commonly understood at that time to be dysfunctional at best and the country better off for nationalising education as soon as possible....

[Adrian II]

What Panzer wrote seems pretty convincing to me. I'm a total outsider when it comes to American education, but some of the things he mentions sound very familiar. The irony is that the American public school system which he laments was the result of a deliberate drive around 1900 to break the hold of private (religious) schools on American education. Schools were expected to contribute to the melting pot, not to social isolation and mental parochialism. Centralization was effective in curbing the influence of religious lobbies, local party machines and corruption.

Since the 1960's education throughout the western world has come to be regarded as a vehicle for social transformation. Schools and teachers are now burdened with all sorts of policies, programs and targets with regard to health, crime, drug abuse, animal rights, gender issues, domestic violence, global warming, world poverty, you name it. Discipline has been discarded as obsolete, authority as oppressive, knowledge as an elitist fad.

Call me old fashioned.

AII

[Major Robert Dump]

Why in particular? You don't mind that the $1900 property tax pool is also used to maintain the entire sewage system and not just the connection with your own toilets...?
Granted the USA tax system works rather different from what we are used to here, but as far as the school funding goes that is exactly what the case used to be in the late 18th/early 19th century here and it was commonly understood at that time to be dysfunctional at best and the country better off for nationalising education as soon as possible....

In most cases, the money does not go into a big pool. Water and sewage is paid for via a water and sewer bill plus applicable taxes.

[Tellos Athenaios]

In most cases, the money does not go into a big pool. Water and sewage is paid for via a water and sewer bill plus applicable taxes.

It goes into a big pool marked “for the plumbers”. And it is paid out not just for your own toilets but whatever water/sewage infrastructure may be necessary.
Forget toilets, think about roads, police, army or any other service provided by the state. Yes there may be specific taxes or fees associated with them, but it is not the case that your fee or your tax pays for your specific use of those services alone.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

1. Teachers Unions are crappy and hold back change. They do this for a very good reason.

The main complaint about the liberals in education comes in when people start bringing up unions. It is true that unions are holding the system back. Reforms need to be made, and unions in general stop them from being made. Why? Because teachers are unfairly demonized by crappy parents who follow right wing politicans that in turn punish them with less pay and representation. If I could make a quick 1.5 here it would be this: Teacher's are at the very bottom of the list of problems with education.And they are not in anyway a problem when it comes to the financial expense of education. It's a lie. Teachers do not make bank. The union is the only thing separating the teachers from the rabid parents demanding that their child get an A because he/she is supposed to go to Harvard. If you want to blame the union for being over protective, first make sure that teachers are not being shat on by everyone from parents to politicans as if they hold the entire future of the child in their hands.

And they want to destroy Cyber Charter schools because they take to much money away from whom? Them. How do I know? I went to one for 4 years and it was far superior to regular public schools.


http://www.pacyber.org/

[Tellos Athenaios]

Cyber school class of 2012 ... all the way up to 2018?!

I'm not sure I can fault the Teachers union for pointing out that an institution unable to get basic dates right is probably not the best choice for the job...

[Centurion1]

Cyber school class of 2012 ... all the way up to 2018?!

I'm not sure I can fault the Teachers union for pointing out that an institution unable to get basic dates right is probably not the best choice for the job...

right pretty stupid point because while i personally don't really like home schooling or cyber schooling im pretty sure your probably just going to end up wrong on this point and it will be like a five year school or something else odd so it was probably a mistake to make the point you did and also unnecessary.

Edit: such as the fact that the school offers k-12th grade..........

[Tellos Athenaios]

im pretty sure your probably just going to end up wrong on this point

and it will be like a five year school or something else odd so it was probably a mistake to make the point you did and also unnecessary.

Edit: such as the fact that the school offers k-12th grade..........

Undoubtedly unnecessary. But it is still... odd... to be advertising with students from a class that does not yet exist.

Now on the more serious note: are cyber schools a viable alternative to “conventional” schools? I'd argue that as far as the subjects taught go, probably yes. It might not be for everyone, but there's definitely scope for them here. However, I'm less sure about the social aspects which are implicit in the conventional schools and by and large probably the most important part of the curriculum. After all, 20 years hence nobody is going to care about whether or not you aced that Literature course. But your good manners, your ability to convey your arguments with reason and your collaborative attitude will matter a lot.

[Centurion1]

ah thats what confuses you? the class of 2018 does exist and is in that school right now its students range from age 5-18. Therefore the 7? year olds are thr class of 2018.

For example in university i am the class of 2014 it just means whatever you you are projected to graduate.

[Major Robert Dump]

It goes into a big pool marked “for the plumbers”. And it is paid out not just for your own toilets but whatever water/sewage infrastructure may be necessary.
Forget toilets, think about roads, police, army or any other service provided by the state. Yes there may be specific taxes or fees associated with them, but it is not the case that your fee or your tax pays for your specific use of those services alone.

I understand your argument. I really do. But the fact of the matter is that property tax is based on location and contents of said property, and it just so happens that property taxes are earmarked for local schools. My taxes that pay for military, postal service, social welfare -- those are collected in another fashion altogether, and the taxes are either a reflection of income or a flat fee type tax. While I may or may not have issues with how those are used, it is irrelevant because they are levied in a different manner that is laregly out of my control.

Property taxes, meanwhile, are assessed locally by a county assessor. So if we want property taxes to go into one giant pool to pay for schools all over the region and not just the ones in my neighborhood, well then maybe there should be a national/regional standard for property taxes, and maybe have some sort of flat-type of fee, so everyone pays into the pool if they own property.

[Adrian II]

I'm reading Superfreakonomics by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner, the sequel to their spectacularly popular Freakonomics, and they make an interesting statement about the dumbing down of American teachers. It used to be that girls and young women were restrained to very few jobs like nursing and teaching. So these professions benefited from the best female brains around. But since female emancipation took off in the 1960's women have had a much wider choice of careers and the brain drain has never stopped.

How about that for an (additional) explanation of certain issues?

AII

[Ironside]

I'm reading Superfreakonomics by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner, the sequel to their spectacularly popular Freakonomics, and they make an interesting statement about the dumbing down of American teachers. It used to be that girls and young women were restrained to very few jobs like nursing and teaching. So these professions benefited from the best female brains around. But since female emancipation took off in the 1960's women have had a much wider choice of careers and the brain drain has never stopped.

How about that for an (additional) explanation of certain issues?

AII

Doubtful. It was pretty much universial for the western world (=can't explain the US) and afaik the career only lasted until the young women got married. That means that most only worked for a few years.

And the ones controlling the larger structure on how the education was supposed to be done was older men.

And you'll need to have high competition and a good selection process for these brains to even clearly show up, neither which is certain.

Edit: Oh and welcome back Adrian.

[Adrian II]

Doubtful. It was pretty much universial for the western world (=can't explain the US) [...]

Neither I nor the authors of Superfreakonomics ever suggested that this trend was unique to the US.

[...] and afaik the career only lasted until the young women got married.

That doesn't invalidate the argument. Primay school teachers were predominantly women. So were nurses. Until womens' career options increased dramatically.

And you'll need to have high competition and a good selection process for these brains to even clearly show up

Exactly. That's why the quality of teachers' used to be higher. Many women competing for one job.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome Ironside.

AII

[Centurion1]

They are still predominantly women. And being a teacher is much harder now that it was then. And there is alot of competition.

I will say one more time the amount of blame for americas educational woes (which are not as bad as everyone in the rest of the world thinks and smugly believes) is minuscule when placed at the feet of teachers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

They are still predominantly women. And being a teacher is much harder now that it was then.

Exactly. Especially primary school is still dominated by women, and especially for primary school the trend has been towards more rigorous requirements for prospective teachers.

[Centurion1]

I always consider getting at least a bachelors and the majority with masters pretty decent requirements. Is it the hardest major to achieve? No probably not but it isn't easy certainly. Do these classes mean your gonna be a good teacher? Nope, but it means you have knowledge of what your teaching most likely

[Adrian II]

They are still predominantly women. And being a teacher is much harder now that it was then. And there is alot of competition.

I think you're not getting the point. Teachers are still predominantly female, what the authors say is that they're a different class of females. And teachers may still be competing, but they don't have to compete with potential female rocket scientists like they did in the old days.

AII

[Centurion1]

I think you're not getting the point. Teachers are still predominantly female, what the authors say is that they're a different class of females. And teachers may still be competing, but they don't have to compete with potential female rocket scientists like they did in the old days.

AII

What an offensive comment about teachers these days. Have some respect for the people who are more responsible for every rocket scientist in the world than anyone else.

Not to mention what do you think I meant when I said it is more difficult to be a teacher now.

[Strike For The South]

What an ignorant and offensive comment about teachers. Have some respect for the people who are more responsible for every rocket scientist in the world than anyone else.

Not to mention what do you think I meant when I said it is more difficult to be a teacher now.

It's a very simple concept

50 years ago, Condi Rice and Hillirary are teaching high school civics

Would you like a color by numbers to really hammer the point home?

[Centurion1]

It's a very simple concept

50 years ago, Condi Rice and Hillirary are teaching high school civics

Would you like a color by numbers to really hammer the point home?

Would you like a dose of manners?

The point remains that a few brilliant apples do not make cancel out 4x as many rotten apples. Teachers on average are far more educated and smarter.

Do you also want a color by numbers to hammer the additional point home that intelligent people can be educators as well?

[Strike For The South]

Would you like a dose of manners?

The point remains that a few brilliant apples do not make cancel out 4x as many rotten apples. Teachers on average are far more educated and smarter.

Do you also want a color by numbers to hammer the additional point home that intelligent people can be educators as well?

Adrian simply posted a contribuiting factor. Not the be all end all

You also seem to think it is a zero sum game

Stop thinking that way

50 years ago all of our female doctors, buinesswomen, or politicians would be teachers

This may be a contribuiting factor to why the school system is faltering

I fail to see how you can get so upset over such a pedestrian observation

[Centurion1]

Adrian simply posted a contribuiting factor. Not the be all end all

You also seem to think it is a zero sum game

Stop thinking that way

50 years ago all of our female doctors, buinesswomen, or politicians would be teachers

This may be a contribuiting factor to why the school system is faltering

I fail to see how you can get so upset over such a pedestrian observation

50 years ago 80% of all our successful women would be housewives.

[Strike For The South]

50 years ago 80% of all our successful women would be housewives.

How backtrackingly arbatriary of you

You can choose from a few things

You can choose from many things, some of which offer more oppurtinity than the few things

The quality of the few things will suffer

At which point in these mammoth leaps of logic was your mind blown?

[Proletariat]

50 years ago 80% of all our successful women would be housewives.

That's of course true too and I'm sure parenting has suffered from it. Now many of the women home child rearing are the ones who couldn't achieve more. Not worth pining for the old days over but another pedestrian observation.

Welcome back, AII!

[Strike For The South]

And that 80% # is wrong to