The Jewish Lobby

[PanzerJaeger]

The populism that infects the Arab world has no basis in facts or reason.

Are you sure?

Your average man on the street belives the most insane propaganda and the force feeding generally begins at birth. You reference a common theme popular with school boy liberatarians but even if we pulled out everything tmrw, they would find a new reason to hate us. The Arab world loves conspiracy theories and a massive US pullout would be dripping with them

Besides, outside of postruing very few educated Arabs want Israel gone, they know it isn't feasable. We can still work with the Arab countries on an intra governemnt level, the propaganda they feed their masses non withstanding.

I must also express my shock that one of the most ardent supporters of realpolitik on this forum is begining to subscribe to the "If we just leave them alone" theory. Blowback is a real thing but to breakdown the geo-political struggle in the ME in such simple terms is naive and counter productive

Where did I endorse such a theory?

In any event, as such an ardent supporter of realpolitik, how could I not eventually question our relationship with Israel - specifically the benefits we are getting for our substantial investment in the country?

I think America has an interest in supporting democratic regimes all around the world, now this does not necersarily mean we should lend them a large amount of fiscal or tech support but Isreal has, on some level, expressed an interest in becoming a functioning democratic state. Those states tend to like us more.

How is it in our interest to support Israel simply because it is a democracy? Communism is dead and democracy is on the rise in the region.

Saudi Arabia is the home of Whabism and the monatery center for int'l terrorism. The fact we are on speaking terms with is only a reflection of the fact that both of our respective countries desperatly want the status quo to ensure the oil flows. They are an absolutely repugnant regime and it pains me we are forced to do buisness with them.

Check your facts. You're operating on decade-old information.

Saudi Arabia's Wahhabism was an exercise in domestic social control that got completely out of hand. Since 9/11, the Saudis have cracked down on Islamist terrorism more violently, decisively, and thoroughly than any other nation in the Middle East, and probably the world.

As to their repugnant internal society - we're talking realpolitik, right? Not my business, not my problem, and not my concern. I've long ago given up caring about how the Arabs govern themselves as long as they keep it in-country.

If Iran wanted to they could roll into Riyadh tmrw and no one could stop them.

That is not even remotely accurate. Saudi Arabia has the most advanced military in the region, trained by America, equipped with the best Western military equipment, and with a budget at least three times the size of Iran's and even greater than that of the IDF.

I would seriously question Iran's ability to even support a conventional military excursion of any meaningful size through Iraq and into Saudi Arabia even with no resistance.

Expoliting the divisons in Islam works to a point but not while Israel is still there. I fail to see how a country with no hard power offers a real counterweight to Iran. Other than secratrianism.

Saudi Arabia has far more influence in the region, and has actually taken steps to correct its contribution to 9/11 instead of using it to push a war in Iraq. Amazingly, the Kingdom can be considered a better ally.

How is Israel not a counterweight to Iran?

They can do precious little to curb their growing sphere of influence in the region. They can do nothing to stop Iranians from supplying IEDs and weapons to the Taliban. They cannot stop regime forces from attacking our own in Iraq. They couldn't even defeat Hezbollah in their own backyard.

If your argument for the value of Israel's incredibly one-sided alliance is based on its ability to counter Iran's ambitions, I think a critical assessment of their actual capabilities is in order. Why don't you tell me exactly what Israel actually does to earn its special status? For comparison, our other special partner, Britain, has faithfully followed us into the depths of hell.

It's the worst kept secert this side of Judea that Israel has nukes. They have also stated they will not allow Iran to persue its program

And how will they stop them? It is highly questionable whether they have the technical ability to get to Iran, much less attack a underground system designed to resist modern bunker busting technology. Hence, the Israeli push for American action against Iran in the last years of the Bush administration.

OBL and Neo-Conservatism compeled us into war. I'm sure Israel is pleased with what happend but the Isreali lobby can't pull something like that off. I'm willing to concede that they were a minor third partner but inconsequntial

You may want to reexamine that position. The Jewish lobby, of which many were involved in neo-conservatism, relentlessly pushed for war against Iraq as far back as the Clinton regime. After 9/11, the opportunity was seized and a coordinated effort between American Zionist Jews and Israel was launched to make the war happen, including intense political pressure within congress and the White House, a sophisticated public relations scheme to sell the war, and doctored Israeli intelligence. When Bush wanted to get UN approval and allow time for weapons inspections, they threatened to bring down his presidency. None of this is in much contention, even within the Jewish Lobby and Israelis.

Pakistan, SA, Egypt. In that order

Pakistan is pretty bad, but it is generally understood that they are not really our ally - at least not in the same way that, say, Britain is. Again, Saudi Arabia's contribution to Islamic extremism through their support of Wahhabism in the '90s was bad, but they've taken steps to correct it. Egypt was actually a pretty reliable American ally under Sadat and Mubarak, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

I am upset because the authors imply there is a set of American forigen policy goals that take a backseat to Israels bidding. When Americas forigen policy is what the American government says it is. And every president since Carter has made Israel a centerpeice of that policy.

Yet America's unqualified support of Israel goes against even its own stated foreign policy goals of stability and security in the region.

I think both of us need to define what Americas endgame in the ME is. Lately both the Obama and Bush adminstrations have said they want friendly democracies in the region and as of right now very few countries tick that box. And Isreal is the only one with projectable power

You vastly overestimate Israel's projectable power.

In any event, I don't think it is a stretch to say that America's endgame in the Middle East is one that yields favorable outcomes for America in terms of security, trade, and influence. America's immense financial and diplomatic support of Israel does nothing to enhance any of those positions.

You are a grown man who has demonstrated very good critical thinking skills. Please use them.

That's the problem. The more I think about our relationship with Israel in objective terms instead of simply assuming that because a) they are a democracy in a region of authoritarian regimes and/or b) they are also locked in a struggle with Allahu Akbar screamers that they must be on our team, the more I see that they are not. They offer nothing to the US, they do nothing for the US, and yet they receive incredible amounts of aid ($500 per year for each Israeli citizen). Worse, not only do they collect our money, they use their considerable influence in America to commit our dollars and our boys and girls to their foreign policy adventures.

In the future, I'd prefer what resources America has left to be employed for the benefit of a broader spectrum of the American public instead of a cabal of traitorous Zionist Jews in America and a tiny, unimportant, and contemptible nation half way around the world.