It's a surprise mafia [Concluded]

**classical_hero** · 07-23-2011, 11:02

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

In addition to the above:

Take Arpeggiate's post on July 7th:

Now, "Boss" made multiple posts in the QT on July 3, 4, 5, and 6. So "Boss" was very clearly monitoring things on those dates, while Arpegg was nowhere in sight.

I have been mafia before when I went on a holiday and even then I did my best to at least check in the QT while doing so. Making sure at least things behind the scenes are working, so that does not count anyone out. What does count me out being the Boos is the posting times. That Boss has been posting at times when I have no chance to be posting, so how do you explain that one? That makes your argument look shaky at best and scummy at worst.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-23-2011, 11:41

Originally Posted by classical_hero

What does count me out being the Boos is the posting times. That Boss has been posting at times when I have no chance to be posting, so how do you explain that one? That makes your argument look shaky at best and scummy at worst.

#1, I have no idea what your schedule is, so people have to take this one at your word, which means absolutely nothing in these games. #2, you yourself mentioned you were on shift work, which means your schedule changes accordingly. #3, Arpegg is old news.

Also, what I find most interesting is that you're clearly cherry-picking which spots to defend yourself on, and are ignoring the much bigger picture of how you are the only possible candidate to be the pepperoni cult leader.

Also, 3 sort-of defenses and counting and you still have yet to address the handkerchief/hankerchief discrepancy.

**Major Robert Dump** · 07-23-2011, 11:47

C_H You say you are a non-recruitable townie and Renata says she is one as well. I find it hard to believe that there would be more than one such role in the town with 4 already existing in the cults, that would make almost 1/3 of the participants non-recruitable. Either one or both of you are lying, and maybe the town recruiter was killed long ago.

**Renata** · 07-23-2011, 11:59

I'm going to cry; I just lost my whole post and I hardly had time to write it in the first place.

Clearly we need some townies up in here.

This should say all that needs to be said about GH (from a PM to me):
[quote]

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Okay, it's pretty obvious that if you glance over the Pepperoni QT for more than two seconds you know I'm not in that cult.

So I think it's all right if you come out and tell me. I'm guessing it's Arpeg - confirmation?

GH

Why's he fishing for the town recruiter (if it's not me)? When I posted what I did in public, I sent a PM to most of the remaining players also saying I was NOT the recruiter, and for whoever was the recruiter to keep mum and not contradict me. I don't want people to know who the town recruiter is. But GH wants to know, and he used incomplete evidence to do so: he hasn't been mentioned in the QT as a kill target for a while now.

He also either failed to read or just plain lied about my own opinions in his post up there. "As Renata already said" that TLD is Boss? Er, no. I said that TLD is Propagandist.

And you'll note that in all of that analysis of who Boss is, he leaves person's name out, the one that *I* named: MRD.

Finally:

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Unvote Blackadder
Vote: General Handkerchief

I repeat: GeneralHan[color]D[/color=red]kerchief. From MRD. I rest my case.

I believe that GH was recruited recently, is still cult, recognizes that I am correct (all of what MRD says in his defense is a smokescreen -- think of what he's been doing in public as true townie behavior, it makes no sense, it's supposed to give the impression of being a townie -- and the PM from Unrequited is clearly meant only to disguise TLD's real nature and the cult's current weakness), and knows that if MRD is lynched today the game will end, GH will die cult, and lose. For his own victory's sake, he needs to delay that.

I don't know why MRD took the risk of revealing accurately to me, but he did, and that's that. Everythign that Boss has done, the talking to himself, the outright lies in the QT intended to manipulate behavior (like that all recruits would never return to being townies once recruited the first time), the over-the-top histrionics -- it's all MRD to a T and has been since day one.

And he writes "generalhandkerchief", and GH chose to omit that fact.

CH, robbie, Arpeg, Seon, whichever are currently town please examine the evidence and vote for MRD. I have every reason to believe the game will then end with a town victory.

**Renata** · 07-23-2011, 12:01

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

C_H You say you are a non-recruitable townie and Renata says she is one as well. I find it hard to believe that there would be more than one such role in the town with 4 already existing in the cults, that would make almost 1/3 of the participants non-recruitable. Either one or both of you are lying, and maybe the town recruiter was killed long ago.

The town recruiter is most certainly still alive.

**classical_hero** · 07-23-2011, 12:07

Well that is good news to hear. So you think it is MRD not arpeg. I am going to trust your judgement on this one Renata. unvote; vote:MRD.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-23-2011, 12:13

Renata: When I asked you that question, I was asking you about the Pepperoni Boss, not the town recruiter. I couldn't give two hoots about the town recruiter.

Also, I did overlook the whole MRD handkerchief/hankerchief thing, mainly because I absolutely refused to consider that MRD would be able to pull off the scheme of having such a brouhaha with himself in the QT thread.

Finally, I never said that you said that TLD was "Propagandist" or "Boss". My theory is/was that C_H is "Boss" and MRD is "Propagandist", in this theory MRD telling the truth.

You've certainly mounted a more credible defense than C_H by offering a legitimate alternative target, and I need to think on this a bit more. But for now my vote stays on C_H.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-23-2011, 12:29

Okay, I can see it.

Unvote: classical_hero
Vote: MRD

My two hangups with the theory were TLD's Post QT Post 43 where he said he had been recruited twice, but it could have meant that that he was an original Pepperoni, got recruited by Sausage, and then got recruited back by Pepperoni the following night. The other one was I can't see why MRD would have taken such a circuitous and elaborate endgame route in "outing" himself in the QT and then fighting with himself, but if TLD was Propagandist the entire time then it's more feasible than it was before. In the end "Boss"'s QT style does look a lot like MRD's, and he does have the handkerchief/hankerchief thing against him too.

Further convincing me that this is the correct story would be appreciated though.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-23-2011, 12:54

Christ, I just pulled myself up from the depths of sleep because I thought of something else. Bear with me here for a minute.

Originally Posted by QT 118

Whatever.

I'm sure its really tough there thats why you are at the .org and playing total war on steam. Don't expect pity from me.

I need everyone to no

vote for GH today. I may actually vote for a change. He has to die

In the middle of the "Boss"/"Not MRD" argument that got "too heated". The above was from "Boss", allegedly yelling at MRD.

I'm friends with MRD on Steam, and yeah, I see him online a lot, playing Total War and the like. Right now for example he's playing Warhammer. The question is, how would anyone else know this? They'd have to be friends with him on Steam.

Checking through MRD's friends list on Steam and his "games played" list, I can't find any real matches. Renata is active on CivFanatics, came here for Mafia, no Total War. Same with classical_hero, he even started a friend. Arpegg, again, came here through his RL friendship with Subo, I believe originally for the purposes of playing A Bridge Zhou Far. Seon's another immigrant only here for Mafia, as is I believe robbiecon. Really the only other person that would match "Boss"'s profile is, well... me.

I guess MRD got a little too cute there with the fake argument at the end, revealed a bit too much information. It's definitely him, guys - C_H, sorry for going after you earlier.

I'm definitely definitely going to sleep now.

**TinCow** · 07-23-2011, 13:29

Originally Posted by Renata

I'm going to cry; I just lost my whole post and I hardly had time to write it in the first place.

Apologies for butting into a game I'm not playing, but after the above post, I wanted to point out that the forums have an auto-save feature for under-construction posts.

**classical_hero** · 07-23-2011, 13:30

Well the person who is Boss is doing his very best to imitate people.

**Renata** · 07-23-2011, 17:00

I had two PMs to you, GH; the first was about the Pepperoni cult's leadership, while the second was about the town recruiter. You responded to the second. So ... maybe.

At the moment I'm a little paranoid that I'm wrong about TLD and it's actually you who's leading that cult with MRD, but it would have to be an absolutely astonishing display of brinksmanship if that's the case, given all those "lynch GH" posts from the Boss. And MRD's apparent forgetting that me plus CH PLUS TLD should make three unrecruitables, not two, is more consistent with the "Unrequited" story being fakery trumped up by him to cover for TLD's loss than it is with it being truth. You'd think being a cult leader, if someone was described as an unrecruitable townie, you'd remember it.

Bottom line, I'm fully convinced of MRD and if I'm wrong about the second leader already being dead, so be it -- I made my gamble.

I think the vote is 3 to 2 right now, and at least some of robbie, Arpeg and Seon must be townies; I'd love if they came in and voted.

**Major Robert Dump** · 07-23-2011, 18:40

I'm being thrown under the bus by the same people I vowed to defend.

I cannot believe a case is being made based on the spelling of GHs name. Furthermore, my constant presence on steam has been discussed in threads. The idea that I would argue with myself is ludicrous, and this essentially boils down to the Pepperoni leadership convincing me to be the liason in an effort to draw attention while they eliminated The Sausages. I suppose I deserve it, though, as I was publicly stating my disdain with the cult in thread.

Calling for the lynch of GH turn after turn after turn is a great form of misdirection, particularly when one knows that it will be almost impossible to coordinate in the QT with everyone worried about anonymity and vote tracking. It also explains the abusive nature of the Boss's posts. There has been no mention of Pepperoni in the obituaries, look for yourself. After this lynch today, there will be 1 and possibly 2 night kills left. Once again I will be the patsy. I'm tempted to change my vote to GH, but at this point it does not matter and at least with a tie with C_H I would get a duel.

To the Pepperoni leader: You are a real jerk

**Askthepizzaguy** · 07-23-2011, 18:55

I just want to say, I haven't even read these arguments but I find the repeated mentioning of "handkerchief" versus "hankerchief" especially amusing.

Will be at work, round ends at the 48 hour mark unless there's a tie.

**Secura** · 07-24-2011, 01:08

I was going to post something lengthy that addressed alot of the why's and whatfor's, but I felt that it was pointless since the only thing that needs to be said is "you're making a huge mistake here, guys."

Now that the Pepperoni QuickTopic is public knowledge, I can draw attention to Post #115, which states "I was a boss a couple of months ago and nobody listened to me then either." If you look at the games that have passed a few months back that followed a 'godfather' structure, your attention should be drawn to a certain large game that was based on the Metroid series, featured a plethora of other video game characters and centred around two mafia teams.

Look closer and you'll find that one of the players in this game was a godfather in that game; view their QuickTopic and you'll learn that their teammates largely ignored their input and went their own way, just as the boss in this game states. Once you've read that, reconsider this bandwagon against MRD and place your vote where it belongs.

EDIT: Major Robert Dump did not play in the game I refer to, bear that in mind too.

EDIT+: I still think it's a bad lynch, but if all that arguing in the QuickTopic was a case of 'me, myself and I'... I don't know whether to applaud MRD or arrange to have him sectioned. :P

**Renata** · 07-24-2011, 01:31

If I totally screwed up, you could just name names, Secura. It's not like what you've said is impossible to look up, but it's not exactly at the top of my memory.

**Renata** · 07-24-2011, 01:32

It would be par for the course the way most of my games are going right now.

**Renata** · 07-24-2011, 01:36

You do mean classical_hero. I suck.

**Secura** · 07-24-2011, 01:55

I do, yes.

If it's any consolation, I like your case against MRD, I just prefer classical_hero for the lynch.

**Seon** · 07-24-2011, 02:10

Ah hell.

Vote: Classical Hero

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-24-2011, 03:13

Unvote: MRD
Vote: classical_hero

At this point there's different pieces of evidence pointing to both candidates, so I'd call it a 50-50 shot. However, since C_H was my initial instinct, I'm shamelessly going to switch back to him.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 07-24-2011, 03:49

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I just want to say, I haven't even read these arguments but I find the repeated mentioning of "handkerchief" versus "hankerchief" especially amusing.

Will be at work, round ends at the 48 hour mark unless there's a tie.

Round ended at the 48 hour mark, which was after this post but before Secura's post.

ArpeggiateTHIS NO VOTE
Classical_hero MAJOR ROBERT DUMP
GeneralHankerchief MAJOR ROBERT DUMP (Unvote was late)
Major Robert Dump CLASSICAL
Renata MAJOR ROBERT DUMP
Robbiecon CLASSICAL
Seon VOTED LATE

MRD: 3
Classical: 2

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-24-2011, 04:50

I have a bad feeling about this.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 07-24-2011, 05:23

DAY EIGHT

And so the remaining survivors gathered in the center of town. Askthepizzaguy was strangely depressed from some other game he had been playing, so he just allowed everyone to assemble and debate whenever they wanted to.

Askthepizzaguy: "Who did you guys figure was a heretic this time? It seems you were right about Romanic. And we found another cult leader dead, so that means at most, you have two left to go."

General Hanky: "No, there's only one left to go. It must be.... classical_hero."

Robbiecon: "Yes, it must be captain hero! Kill the hero!"

Major Robert Dump: "Prepare to die, mister hero! BWAHAHAAAA!"

Classical_hero: "Who, me? It wasn't me. That's silly. You're silly, cadet kerchief."

Askthepizzaguy: "You want to kill the hero? Okay, sure, let's do that! Are you ready for death, hero?"

General Hanky: "WAIT!"

Askthepizzaguy: "Now what?"

General Hanky: "My nose hairs are tingling. Something is askew."

Askthepizzaguy: "Gesundheit."

General Hanky: "Thank you. Now, I'm not a fancy, big city lawyer, but it seems to me, even someone as crazy as Major Robert Dump wouldn't go the route of arguing with himself in a quicktopic. But if TheLastDays was a propagandist, then I suppose it makes more sense."

Major Robert Dump: "That's absurd! He only ever posted as the Propagandist, or TLD. He couldn't have posted those arguments. You're wrong, Hank. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong!"

General Hanky: "I am?"

Major Robert Dump: "Yes. You're on the completely wrong track. You've got it all backward, in fact. You see, I know firsthand that TheLastDays couldn't possibly have posted those things, because I was a mole on the inside of that whole cult, working to bring it down."

General Hanky: "You were?"

Major Robert Dump: "Yes. I was there since the very beginning, undercover as the Premier Pepperoni Pontiff himself. I figured there was no better way to infiltrate the cult than being its leader. No one would ever suspect a thing. And so I worked tirelessly, throwing myself into character, eating NOTHING but Pepperoni.... slowly convincing myself to like its meaty flavor, its greasy aftertaste, and its suggestive shape! I swallowed more Pepperoni than most mortal men would ever dare! And I grew to like it very much indeed. Then, I made sure that everyone else liked it as much as me, by having my apprentice, TheLastDays, kidnap people and force his pepperoni down their throats. He was so good at it that I made him my Primary Pepperoni Propagandist in charge of the whole cult-spreading thing. The plan was so incredibly ingenious that it would never, ever be unraveled."

General Hanky: "Astonishing."

Major Robert Dump: "And so I toiled in secrecy, forever loyal to the Order of Pizza-Eaters, working under the code name 'Deep Meat'. I was their most experienced and knowledgeable spy. I had the entire cult of Pepperoni worshipers under my complete control. Where there was rumors of dissent and disorder, those rumors were planted by me and me alone! When there was chaos and disloyalty, that was merely an act done by myself personally. And we had infiltrated the Sausage cult as well, sending TheLastDays over there repeatedly as their convert, but he was still loyal to the Pepperoni, and therefore, still loyal to me."

General Hanky: "Truly you have a dizzying intellect."

Major Robert Dump: "Wait until I get warmed up! Where was I? Oh yes. So, I personally ordered the kidnappings of all the various peasants in town, and I jammed my spicy greasy meat poles in their gaping maws until they worshiped it instead of the almighty Pizza. Soon, they all bowed down to me.... I had total control over their minds. But little did they know it was all a ruse... I was taking meticulous notes... orchestrating scheme after scheme.... completely fooling everyone. And now, I have all the evidence I need, to convict almost all of you traitors! I am MAJOR ROBERT DUMP, the highest ranking operative of the Order of Pizza-Eaters, and I have proven that most of you are heretics under my control, respecting MY authoritah!"

General Hanky: "The highest ranking operative?"

Major Robert Dump: "Yes! The highest ranking!"

General Hanky: *looks at his own name tag* "Could you possibly be overlooking one minor detail?"

Major Robert Dump: "Whatever it is, it is of no concern. Soon, the heretics will be crushed, and all of Pizzadom will belong to me! My work here is finished. I'll soon have my finished report on Askthepizzaguy's desk. I'll be a hero for sure."

General Hanky: "I declare that Major Robert Dump is a heretic. KILL HIM!!!"

Suddenly, everyone in town besides Major Robert Dump went into a zombie-like trance.

Crowd: "Must... kill... Dump.

Must... kill... Dump.

Must... kill... Dump."

Major Robert Dump: "Already I have legions of admirers who have come to carry me on their shoulders in a parade through town. At last, I'm getting what I deserve!"

And so the crowd picked up Major Robert Dump and brought him towards the Magistrate's office at the center of town. But instead of carrying him inside, they went around back, to where there was a small wooden structure.

Major Robert Dump: "I can picture it now... hordes of cheering fans, more gold than I could ever spend, women, women, and more women... medals, titles, a mountain of chocolate, and a fountain of beer. At long last, my plans have finally paid off!"

General Hanky: "PUT HIM IN!!!"

And so the crowd ripped open the wooden door, and hurled Dump head-first into the darkness.

Major Robert Dump: "Look, a mountain of chocolate!"

Suddenly, a cement mixer driven by Askthepizzaguy backed up and crushed the wooden outhouse, and began pouring cement into the latrine, sealing Dump in with his fabulous reward.

Askthepizzaguy: "Good work, GeneralHankerchief. I was a little worried there, but it seems that your loyalty and service to the Order of Pizza-Eaters cannot be questioned."

GeneralHankerchief: "Actually, for a while there I was pretty sure that Pizza was rather nasty. But I got better."

Askthepizzaguy: "Indeed. That reminds me, I have to personally thank the Grand Inquisitor!"

Robbiecon: "All in a day's work, folks. It was I who went running around at night, kidnapping heretics, and force-feeding them the correct, balanced food which serves everyone's nutritional needs. It was the least I could do for the Order of Pizza-Eaters."

Askthepizzaguy: "What can I say, this outcome was probably the best I could have hoped for. Only about half of you died! Isn't that something? How about we all order some Pizza to celebrate!"

Renata: "I'll take mine with Pepperoni!"

Suddenly, everyone stopped talking and stared coldly at Renata.

Renata: "Eep."

Askthepizzaguy: "As long as it is a topping on your pizza, that's perfectly all right."

And everyone had a good laugh. And they all personally ate 12 cheese pizzas with extra cheese, pepperoni, sausage, green peppers, onions, mushrooms, black olives, pork, beef, bacon, chicken, and red peppers. BUT NO ANCHOVIES.

Alive:

ArpeggiateTHIS
Classical_hero
GeneralHankerchief
Renata
Robbiecon
Seon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Romanic** · 07-24-2011, 06:16

Good game everyone.

Quick comment - I feel this setup is unbalanced, specially the rule converting all the cultists to Town once a cult is destroyed. It makes backstabbing a cult interesting for recruitable players, while the reverse isn't true. Also the Informed Minority vs Uninformed Majority isn't real here. The Town is arguably on par information-wise as they get 12-14 phases to figure what's going on before the mafia can kill their members safely (a lynch not being safe - calling for someone's head in the QT will reveal information that the Town can use later to deduce who are the leaders).

Some point to prove this - Renata not voting our way, after we recruited her, probably because she was considering her options even though she was one of ours.

As she said:

"My bargaining power as a regular "townie" is greater now than it will ever be."

Indeed. And us giving her information to convince her to "tag" with us was definitely something we couldn't afford. In this case we requested that Renata vote DE, to save GH, who wasn't one of our leaders, but the same could have happened if our leaders were on the line.

Once you cannot trust your own team, a game is flawed. This setup turned all vanilla townies into pevergreens types, ready to backstab their own teammates just because it was good strategy to do so.

And I'd like to hear what vanilla players thought about this setup. I feel that anyone who put some thoughts into this setup would figure that they should be siding with the Town, even if recruited by a Cult. That's what I would have done anyway.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-24-2011, 06:41

Originally Posted by Romanic

And I'd like to hear what vanilla players thought about this setup. I feel that anyone who put some thoughts into this setup would figure that they should be siding with the Town, even if recruited by a Cult. That's what I would have done anyway.

Well I basically flew by the seat of my pants this game, so I'm not really in a position to comment. To be honest I didn't really examine the mechanics or anything else like that in depth, which I think served me well all in all.

Romanic, I did figure you for the Sausage Cult leader due to posting style in the QT, but obviously at that point I was on your team so I didn't say much. Once I got converted back to townie and things got more in the open I was actually able to make sense of things, and luckily Renata convinced me for just long enough for my vote on MRD to be valid.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 07-24-2011, 06:56

I particularly liked GeneralHankerchief's early game decision to insist on lynching certain players without providing reasoning. And people followed him, too.

Very entertaining.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 07-24-2011, 06:58

Okay, regarding the Blackadder thing: Yes, there actually was reasoning behind it, believe it or not. However, since I'm always playing the metagame, I'm still not going to tell you what it was.

**Major Robert Dump** · 07-24-2011, 07:26

Wow. I almost lived another day. Really too bad about the inactivity in this game.

Yeah, yeah, I torpedoed myself with the Renata thing. What else was there to do? Based on the mechanics of the game, the only viable strategy in my opinion would be to essentially lynch/murder your own recruits while pretending in the QT you were trying to protect them. And I didn't want to be the guy who killed my own teammates.

Everything in the QT was a lie. Every seed we planted about me being in previous games, who we were recruiting, me having kids, me arguing with myself, me being abusive, erratic posting times and personal problems was a lie because we knew that ultimately the detectives would dissect the subtle nuances. We knew everything would eventually come to a head and we would need things to be inconsistent and have people chasing ghosts when the QT ultimately became public. It almost worked. (and for the record, I did not pose as Classical Hero, I just made stuff up and it happened to fit him, I know nothing about him personally or his game history. The fact that he attacked me in Sigurds mafia game was good for me and bad timing for him.)

Here was the problem: As mentioned above by Romanic, no recruits were trustworthy, and some could potentially bring you down. This made it almost impossible to coordinate votes. This made it impossible to talk larger strategy outside the two leaders.

The argument with myself:
I claimed to Renata and Seon in PMs because I needed them onboard so we could eliminate Romanic and Secura in the same round as soon as killing became available. If one of them survived there was a high chance that they were going to kill me because TLD said I was a suspect. It was a lose/lose situation. Reveal my identity either directly or though obivous voting and get Romanic lynched, or let one of the Sausages last another day and murder me. The argument was a last-ditch effort to make them doubt me as the leader and possibly suspect someone else for the night phase where they killed TLD. I actually thought TLD was in the clear and was surprised by his death. It was probably unnecessary to both have the argument and claim to Renata and Seon. In retrospect it looks like C_H and possibly Seon were bigger suspects than I, and I could have probably survived another day.

Also, I never visited the Sausage QT. I requested that TLD keep it to himself and just inform me what was happening

Renatas initial correspondence with me irked meespecially her insistence that she wanted a cult win, as did her absence for most of the voting on the day we lynched Romanic. That should have been the red flag.

I would like the thank TLD for being such a good sport and giving me solid intel on who the other cult leaders were. He was spot on, for reasons I won't go in to. It was his idea to pose as a recruit to our own cult, which is why we initially outed Renata, that way we could justify outing TLD and making him recruit bait for the Sausages.

Still haven't survived a mafia game

GG (except you Renata, you are a jerk face)

**classical_hero** · 07-24-2011, 09:59

In this game you could not really trust anyone since they could become something else at an instant. I knew that I was one of the few people who could not change their alignment, so I knew I could not just blurt out that I was always a townie, s that would make me a target of the cults. I wonder if I ever got attempted at being recruited.

When reading the leaded QT, nothing made any sense in that whatsoever. So I got the hint that it was a big set up. Since I became the target of suspicion after it's release it was naturally I assume it was there to set me up. But that was not the case, but it sure felt like it, until Renata got the word out.

About your spelling GH. I just separated the two words in my browser and that is why the 'd' is in it, since without the 'd' in it it is underlined, so I made that assuption. Plus it is really had for me to see the mods of the forums considering the skin I use. The mods are green over a dark bluish and those two colours. I use the NTW skin and use that and see if you can read your name in it. So that explains my spelling of your name GeneralHankerchief.

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