US gubmint shutdown + default + subprime sequel?

**Koga No Goshi** · 08-04-2011, 06:57

How about the fact that Palin and McCain had to be called upon multiple times to address this issue in their gatherings? You do remember that?

McCain did eventually (after MUCH public pressure to say something over a fairly long period) address this in his appearances and told people to stop with the Muslim terrorist characterizations, but if Palin ever did the same, I'm unaware of it. This was a big enough issue in national level Presidential campaigns that two frontrunners had to be called on to say something about it, and you want to construe it as just some tiny dismissable fringe? Okay.

**PanzerJaeger** · 08-04-2011, 06:59

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

How about the fact that Palin and McCain had to be called upon multiple times to address this issue in their gatherings? You do remember that?

The issue that then candidate Obama was black?

Also, the Tea Party did not exist during the 2008 campaign.

Again, if we're going to have a solid discussion of the issue: Before I respond, can you link to some of those accounts that document the use of racial epithets by 'large numbers' of Tea Party members so we have a basis for the discussion?

**Koga No Goshi** · 08-04-2011, 07:07

http://houstontps.org/audio/4995.jpg

http://thinkingmeat.net/wp-content/u...rtysign1sm.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slides...0072_large.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp...a55b5c6067.jpg

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/u..._tea_party.jpg

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/.../tea_party.jpg

http://snotrockets.net/images/racist13.jpg

Do a simple google image search. It reveals pages and pages. We aren't making this up.

**PanzerJaeger** · 08-04-2011, 07:23

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

http://houstontps.org/audio/4995.jpg

http://thinkingmeat.net/wp-content/u...rtysign1sm.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slides...0072_large.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp...a55b5c6067.jpg

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/u..._tea_party.jpg

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/.../tea_party.jpg

http://snotrockets.net/images/racist13.jpg

Do a simple google image search. It reveals pages and pages. We aren't making this up.

Actually, a google image search of 'tea party racist' reveals far less than a page of actual racist signs, with pages and pages of the same signs over and over among other unrelated images. Rather amazing for a group numbering in the hundreds of thousands and possibly millions. Maybe I'm not using the right terms?

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is often not really evidence at all. You see, an actual analysis of Tea Party signage suggests a completely different picture. I know for a fact that the fellow in your first picture was ejected from that event, kicked out of his local Tea Party organization, and publically denounced by various Tea Party umbrella groups.

Do you have any actual evidence of 'large numbers' of Tea Partiers using racial epithets against Obama or anyone else?

Certainly you're not trying to claim that a few isolated incidents are representative of the greater collective? Under such conditions, one could easily claim that those against the Tea Party are racists themselves.

**Koga No Goshi** · 08-04-2011, 07:32

I could just as easily turn around and say your defense of the Tea Party is based on circumstantial or anecdotal cases of where they're actually coherent or avoiding overtly radical or offensive rhetoric, because with a fragmented group like this there's always wiggle room for someone to do exactly as you are doing, and merely flicking your wrist to wave off the unsavory character of the party as just a fringe minimal element.

Let's put it this way PanzerJaeger... when you have to routinely conduct damage control because people who support your cause are always showing up with signs alluding to wishing for Kennedy solutions or making racially charged denouncements of the President, that says something. Of course the Tea Party isn't going to put "we have a lot of people who hate blacks" in its official charter for me to pull out and show you. So what? All you are doing is spin doctoring something that is pretty obvious to anyone who's paid the least bit of attention to the movement (and isn't a staunch supporter of it.)

I also find it interesting that you harp on anecdotal evidence and your entire handwaving of signs you can see at Tea Party events involves pointing out ONE incident where a particularly offensive sign bearer was thrown out. Like that's not defending your position about the overall Tea Party based off one cherrypicked anecdote.

**a completely inoffensive name** · 08-04-2011, 07:37

-sticks fingers in ears- lalalalalallalala

**PanzerJaeger** · 08-04-2011, 08:31

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

I could just as easily turn around and say your defense of the Tea Party is based on circumstantial or anecdotal cases of where they're actually coherent or avoiding overtly radical or offensive rhetoric, because with a fragmented group like this there's always wiggle room for someone to do exactly as you are doing, and merely flicking your wrist to wave off the unsavory character of the party as just a fringe minimal element.

This feels quite a bit like an appeal to ignorance. You're making the claim, you need to prove it. So far, you've offered some very limited anecdotal evidence that is disputed by at least one statistical analysis. I can find limited anecdotal evidence that paints nearly any large group of people in all sorts of negative lights.

Is that it? Have you ever been to a political rally? Crazy people write crazy things on signs. You'll have to do considerably better if you want to portray the six signs you posted as representative of the feelings of the entire movement.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Let's put it this way PanzerJaeger... when you have to routinely conduct damage control because people who support your cause are always showing up with signs alluding to wishing for Kennedy solutions or making racially charged denouncements of the President, that says something. Of course the Tea Party isn't going to put "we have a lot of people who hate blacks" in its official charter for me to pull out and show you. So what? All you are doing is spin doctoring something that is pretty obvious to anyone who's paid the least bit of attention to the movement (and isn't a staunch supporter of it.)

And yet, you saying it is the case does not make it so.

I'm still waiting for evidence of 'large numbers' of Tea Partiers using racial epithets or any other widespread demonstration of Tea Party racism. It is somewhat difficult to refute evidence you haven't even provided.

I also find it interesting that you harp on anecdotal evidence and your entire handwaving of signs you can see at Tea Party events involves pointing out ONE incident where a particularly offensive sign bearer was thrown out. Like that's not defending your position about the overall Tea Party based off one cherrypicked anecdote.

Actually, I've gone considerably beyond that in offering a source that directly refutes your 'six signs = Tea Party sentiment' line of reasoning. But really, what else can I do? You've offered nothing but anecdote, and thus I must respond via anecdote. Double shrug for you.

**Koga No Goshi** · 08-04-2011, 08:38

You believe as you like, Panzer. You're resorting to burden of proof arguments in the realm of political charcterizations which is a really bad application of logic and most likely just a means to 'win' an argument in the face of overwhelming common sense. After all, I could pull out a hard stat that 85% of Tea Party people dislike blacks and you could say "oh but that's not racism." It's fairly clear in the exchange here that this is your style given that you could not even concede that Obama being called out as a Kenyan or Muslim has anything to do with race at all and tried to make some ridiculous dismissal that the same would happen to anyone with an unusual family heritage... the fact that few Americans would even ask where a white candidate's grandparents came from is just beside the point, right?

**a completely inoffensive name** · 08-04-2011, 08:45

Your demand for evidence is a clever way to support your denial because everyone knows that polls never give the truth about the breakdown of groups. Especially when it comes to their thoughts.

Any sort of poll that would try to find out how much racism there is in the organization is going to be immediately worthless due to responder bias. No one comes out and tells Rasmussen that they don't want the black man in the white house because that sentiment is recognized by all as being on the losing side in history.

Oh yeah, no one is racist against the illegal hispanic immigrants were just don't like them taking our jobs even though all of our European ancestors did the same thing...

When it comes to how large groups in society operate and think, everyone that is not part of the group knows what it really is. Those within the group only know what they want it to be. Everyone knows that there are black haters in the tea party and it is what drove it to become big in 2008 despite Bush committing the same economic policies without any sort of peep besides the Ron Paul supporters.