[EB] EDU Balance Proposals

[vartan]

gamegeek2 almost always tells me all the changes he's doing, so I would have known if the majority of units got boosts in stamina. By the way, that's actually impossible since the majority of units in original EB were already hardy. What happened was this was changed. Now we have vanilla Rome stamina units.

[The Celtic Viking]

Why do you keep insisting this? Thorakitai and Neitos are two and I can't think of any others that received a bonus. Please give specific examples.

gamegeek2 almost always tells me all the changes he's doing, so I would have known if the majority of units got boosts in stamina.

Germanic units:
"-All unarmored infantry given "very_hardy" attribute"

Celtic units:
"-Caledonian nobles made very_hardy"
"-Many light units given very_hardy"
"-Carnute Cingetos (...) given very_hardy"
"-Neitos and Arjos given "hardy""
"-Goidilic cavalry given very_hardy"
"-Eiras given very_hardy"

Dacian units
"-Ktistai given (...) very_hardy"
"-Getikoi Stratiotai (...) given very_hardy"

Eastern unit changes
"-Many light units given "very_hardy""

Greek unit changes
"-Hippeis Thessalikoi given very_hardy"
"-Iphikratous Hoplitai given very_hardy"
"-Pheraspidai given very_hardy"
"... Cretan archers (...) given very_hardy"

Hellenistic unit changes
"-Iudaioi Taxeis made very_hardy"
"-Tarantinoi given (...) very_hardy"
"-Agema Hippeon Hellenikon given very_hardy"
"-Aspidophoroi (...) given very_hardy"


... really, I can go on, but I prefer not to. These are all quotes from GG2's documentation. Granted it's not from the latest version, but he hasn't undone this AFAIK.

[antisocialmunky]

He upped the stamina on vanilla Thuerophoroi (previously only the merc ones had it) and basically all the veteran units have some form of stamina IIRC. Atleast it feels that way. It used to be almost no higher-level infantry had stamina so things like Neitos and other units will beat Hoplites in guard mode now where they wouldn't before (hoplites ftw). Some combo of that and increased kill rates on some weapons really make guard-mode not that important anymore.

Your veteran and elite units can actually function like assault infantry without going tired immediately which is really nice :)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Ah I see. Granted most of the units receiving stamina boosts are cavalry, elites and light units, though the point is taken. Theurophoroi always had good stamina though, both factional and mercenary variants. In my Aedui campaign, I'm invading Egypt with armies of Theuros and Samnites I shipped over from Italy. Gotta restore balance in the East. :p

[vartan]

If you asked me, the following would happen:

Among infantry, there would be no units without hardy. Most units would be hardy. A select few would be very hardy.
Among cavalry, there would be no units with very hardy. Most would be without hardy. A select few would be hardy.

Why? I find it better this way. Reduce the emphasis on cavalry, and don't make it so that the average unit is exhausted before you can spell your grandmother's name.

[Lazy O]

Yea reduce the importance of cavalry, make the game even more slow, infantry spams for the win.

Booooooo

[Burebista]

Yea reduce the importance of cavalry, make the game even more slow, infantry spams for the win.

Booooooo

You forgot some factions don't use Cav , such as Gauls /Sweboz/Getai . We use Anti-cav :))

[vartan]

Yea reduce the importance of cavalry, make the game even more slow, infantry spams for the win.

Booooooo

You play too much vanilla. See below.

You forgot some factions don't use Cav , such as Gauls /Sweboz/Getai . We use Anti-cav :))

Don't mind Lazy O, he can be slow sometimes.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

You forgot some factions don't use Cav , such as Gauls /Sweboz/Getai . We use Anti-cav :))

I think Getai should use cavalry to reach their full potential. Thracian Mediums for example are gamechangers.

[Lazy O]

You are the ones who are slow. Turtles... Bahhh

[antisocialmunky]

The anti-cav is only due to barbs zerging.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The anti-cav is only due to barbs zerging.

What should barbs do? Take their missiles to the body and like it? :P
I don't think Sotoroas have much of a chance against Bosphorans, Cretans, or even Persian or steppe archers. Charging is the only way, and honestly, much more exhilarating than lazily trading missile fire until both sides run out of ammo.

[Aper]

Hi, I have made few (because my brother chase away me from the PC were I have installed EB) tests 1 camillan hastati vs. 1 golberi curoas in custom battles.

I gave to the hastati a slight boost to mass (1.15 -> 1.2), a consistent reduction of soldier radius (0.4 -> 0.3) and formation width (1 -> 0.85), and better training (trained -> highly_trained): I improved them more then I feel right to better see the effects of the changes.
Also, I removed AP from the javs and doubled their attack (4 -> 8), because, AFAIK, pila were designed to pierce shields, not armors, and the only way to simulate this is to give them an high attack value.

I fought with my men on 3 ranks instead of normal 4 to avoid being flanked and truly test the frontal resilience on my formation, with guard mode and fire at will on; I did not attack, nor manoeuvre, apart from adjusting my front to be always parallel to the enemy line.

First results show that modified hastati are significally stronger than vanilla ones, because the celts find much more difficult to isolate single legionari: I noticed my first line remains solid and well ordered for the whole duration of the battle, something did not happened before.

However, I have to verify the impact of improved javs on the overall effectivness of my unit, and run much more tests to see a clearer pattern in the evolution of the battles.

[Burebista]

I think Getai should use cavalry to reach their full potential. Thracian Mediums for example are gamechangers.

Yeah , that is my best bet for charging cavalry , best can opener i really have tbh . But they won't win me any cavalry fights so it's not worth the effort. I can better invest in some skirmishing cav which are golden for their price.

As for the Getai's full potential , H Cav is only good if the enemy is pinned down , which i cannot do with the Getai (can't complain rly , i actually enjoy these kinds of mindgames which you are forced to do with the Getai) .

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Getai actually have pretty good pinners but I'll leave that up to you to play around with.

[Kival]

Yeah , that is my best bet for charging cavalry , best can opener i really have tbh . But they won't win me any cavalry fights so it's not worth the effort.

They are actually suprisingly good in melee vs other cavalry. I also agree with Robin, Getai allows for pinning tactics, they are just better for other ones.

[Lazy O]

@Aper; In battle situation that Hastati is most likely to rout. And there is no way in hell that any smart player would attack guard mode units from the front unless they are elites and the guard mode unit is something like Gaeros.

I actually do not understand why you would want to mess with the Hastati, at least they are balanced now and not horribly OP like last year .

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

He is just testing on them Lazy.

[Lazy O]

If he has time he can test things which can be more helpful :P Like EDU 3.0

[Aper]

Yes, I used camillan hastati just because I wanted shortswordmen rather weak and poor equipped, to magnify the effects of my changes; and because I wanted to fight against gallic longswordmen, so I have to pick an unarmored opponent for the sake of fair play.

And even if I'd like to test 3.0, maybe I'm not the best person, having never played online so far... and it's a different kind of effort than testing a very limited modification regarding not many units... I fear I don't have that kind of time, sorry!

EDIT: I forgot to say I had such a passive behaviour, guard mode on, because I was mostly interested in seeing how better my men could keep their formation under enemy pressure. In the next tests I'll be more aggressive.

[vartan]

Burebista, try Getai steppe before underestimating their cavalry usage abilities.

And even if I'd like to test 3.0, maybe I'm not the best person, having never played online so far... and it's a different kind of effort than testing a very limited modification regarding not many units... I fear I don't have that kind of time, sorry!

If you have time to do what you already are, you have time to do this as well. Whether you should isn't the question. Whether you wish to is the question, one only you can answer.

[Aper]

If you have time to do what you already are, you have time to do this as well. Whether you should isn't the question. Whether you wish to is the question, one only you can answer.

If you put it like that... give me the file and I'll do my best! But I expect many advices, because I'm totally new to this kind of work, and I have to know exactly what kind of goals you had in mind putting together this new version...

[-Stormrage-]

Why the hell do those Heavy hoplite phalanx dudes have No Stamina.

Note: Chevroned Thessalian heavy cav is Awesome. have you ever tried it. I played a game where i got 600 kills and 200 were from the chevroned thessalians.i should have got a couple more of those thessalians 2 more and that would equal 600 kills alone.

[vartan]

If you put it like that... give me the file and I'll do my best! But I expect many advices, because I'm totally new to this kind of work, and I have to know exactly what kind of goals you had in mind putting together this new version...

Haha. The file's not ready! And testing is preferably with humans. This is MP after all. Hence we use the EB Online network to test. Usually it's gamegeek2 and when he is online he will try to test with anyone else who is online and willing to test with him. Nothing overly systematic when it comes to the testing, but in-game you will likely end up in several battles with a diverse amount of units fighting individual skirmishes and taking notes on how these skirmishes progress, and so on. Nothing as formal as this but still extensive enough so as to gather some sort of idea of what's going on.

Why the hell do those Heavy hoplite phalanx dudes have No Stamina.

Note: Chevroned Thessalian heavy cav is Awesome. have you ever tried it. I played a game where i got 600 kills and 200 were from the chevroned thessalians.i should have got a couple more of those thessalians 2 more and that would equal 600 kills alone.

I'm starting to like this guy! lol, stormie! Send me some dates!

[Burebista]

Getai actually have pretty good pinners but I'll leave that up to you to play around with.

I hope you don't refer to the Komatai Thorakitai . They are awful , despite their stats , getting chewed through by cheaper units.

Anyway , with the Getai , what i feel is that they don't excel in cavalry and they don't excel in Infantry , but the army they field is great for helping one another and harrasing the hell out of an opponent.

Thank god for the celtic mercs.

I am curious though to hear from TCV . He announced to play with the Getai and am wondering what his oppininon will be after a few games.

[Lazy O]

TCV Has played with the Getai. We did some 2v2s.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I hope you don't refer to the Komatai Thorakitai . They are awful , despite their stats , getting chewed through by cheaper units.

Anyway , with the Getai , what i feel is that they don't excel in cavalry and they don't excel in Infantry , but the army they field is great for helping one another and harrasing the hell out of an opponent.

Thank god for the celtic mercs.

I am curious though to hear from TCV . He announced to play with the Getai and am wondering what his oppininon will be after a few games.

Are you referring to the Stratiotai? They are not so good outside guard mode, but in it they do an amazing job of holding, tho this can be said of many units. Getai pinners are mostly guard mode pinners but there is nothing wrong with that. You will often win the missile duel so your opponent will have to move against you allowing you to accept their charge.

[Burebista]

Are you referring to the Stratiotai? They are not so good outside guard mode, but in it they do an amazing job of holding, tho this can be said of many units. Getai pinners are mostly guard mode pinners but there is nothing wrong with that. You will often win the missile duel so your opponent will have to move against you allowing you to accept their charge.

I can hardly call them "amazing" . They are designed as a versatile unit , being able to complement the lighter forces of a getai army , but they fail to do so as they suck in woods , don't move fast and can't win a fight by themselves.

A static Getai army is a dead army, ever since the "no AP for Falx " change. Just my oppinion.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, the Falxes were grotesquely powerful in vanilla and I think they should be better than they are now. The celtic long swords were used as heavy/slashing/bashing type things while falxes are basically polearms.

[The Celtic Viking]

Are you referring to the Stratiotai? They are not so good outside guard mode, but in it they do an amazing job of holding, tho this can be said of many units. Getai pinners are mostly guard mode pinners but there is nothing wrong with that. You will often win the missile duel so your opponent will have to move against you allowing you to accept their charge.

I can't agree with that last point at all. Komatai Toxotai is the only sensible archers you have, but still they will lose against anyone who brings any non-crappy archers. The elite ones cost 1.6k, more than Bosphorans, and will still lose to any decent archers in a ranged fight. In fact, the only one in this tournament who can't bring archers that would shred any archer I could bring is you, Robin, and that's because you can't bring any archers at all.