Euro Area

[Adrian II]

ze germans try to persuade us that we should raise taxes to the eurozone average of 44.8% of GDP:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...779893,00.html

no thanks, that's just not british! :)

Don't worry, it won't happen. The greedy, disconnected British political class that is for sale to the highest corporate bidder would never allow it.

AII

[gaelic cowboy]

ze germans try to persuade us that we should raise taxes to the eurozone average of 44.8% of GDP:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...779893,00.html

no thanks, that's just not british! :)

What a load of speculative

I fancy comparing apples and oranges, we should eat the skin of an orange because then we get to eat more orange so that it can be more like an apple.

[Furunculus]

Don't worry, it won't happen. The greedy, disconnected British political class that is for sale to the highest corporate bidder would never allow it.

AII

never mind the british political class; i demand that taxation returns to the 37% level as soon as is humanly possible!

[Adrian II]

never mind the british political class; i demand that taxation returns to the 37% level as soon as is humanly possible!

I say 25%. And bring back hanging!

AII

[Furunculus]

I say 25%. And bring back hanging!

AII

more than 40% damages the long term growth that permits the next generation a similar standard of living to what westerners typically enjoy today.

37% at the peak of the cycle allows a little slack to maintain stable public spending without damaging the economy when its in a trough.

it's all terribly logical my dear adrian:

http://ime.bg/uploads/OptimalSizeOfGovernment.pdf

[Vladimir]

When is it reasonable for people to NOT want lower taxes?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

When they don't pay any themselves.

[Adrian II]

more than 40% damages the long term growth that permits the next generation a similar standard of living to what westerners typically enjoy today.

Sure. Here's another one for ya. Growth = (skirt length x Justin Bieber) / Tory seats.

AII

[Furunculus]

Sure. Here's another one for ya. Growth = (skirt length x Justin Bieber) / Tory seats.

AII

thanks for the contribution, please come back tomorrow too! :)

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...UBgSsQ&cad=rja

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...TwrKtg&cad=rja

[Adrian II]

thanks for the contribution, please come back tomorrow too! :)

Same to you. We don't need a young lady from the Cato Institute, Bulgaria office, rubbing our noses in the long-discarded Laffer curve.

AII

P.S. Sorry, Ms Adriana Mladenova was quite enough and I can'be bovvered to read all of that other stuff. So lalalala I can't hear you

[Furunculus]

that is why you live in the netherlands and me elsewhere. :D

[Adrian II]

that is why you live in the netherlands and me elsewhere. :D

Furunculus, I love you in a manly, stock markets aren't for wuzzes sort of way. But 2 + 2 just doesn't equal 5, regardless of where you and I reside.

AII

[Furunculus]

sure it is.

the laffer curve is as relevant today as the day it was invented, but importantly, it is merely a bell-curve and not a cliff-edge and therefore it is up to society to determine at which point along the bell-curve they want to sit, with all the attendant benefits and problems that brings.

that is quite evident on page ten here:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...xerc_A&cad=rja

britain has traditionally aimed to occupy the 37%-42% region, depending on who is in power, as you sort of recognise with your Growth = (skirt length x Justin Bieber) / Tory seats calculation.

[Ironside]

sure it is.

the laffer curve is as relevant today as the day it was invented, but importantly, it is merely a bell-curve and not a cliff-edge and therefore it is up to society to determine at which point along the bell-curve they want to sit, with all the attendant benefits and problems that brings.

that is quite evident on page ten here:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...xerc_A&cad=rja

britain has traditionally aimed to occupy the 37%-42% region, depending on who is in power, as you sort of recognise with your Growth = (skirt length x Justin Bieber) / Tory seats calculation.

The problem with the laffer curve is that there's no conclusive studies on how it looks like. The 25% is optimal for growth report, that someone linked to earlier (I think it was you) had a nice reference to other studies. Less than half showed that it even existed at a position where we need to bother about it, even if more studies said it was better to reduce to the state than the opposite (aka that bigger state is always better). Short version: It's a mess to study and that draving all conclusions from one study is like hoping that your god is the only correct one.

[Adrian II]

britain has traditionally aimed to occupy the 37%-42% region, depending on who is in power, as you sort of recognise with your Growth = (skirt length x Justin Bieber) / Tory seats calculation.

Make that Elton John instead of Bieber

Germany's tax level is around 50% and they're doing much better growth-wise than you, don't they?

Linky

AII

[Sarmatian]

In Finland one of the key economist said in interview today that the only cure might be a significant drop of living standards in Western World.

Thank you very much. Finally someone who understands the issue. The entire western idea that debts don't matter if there's enough growth failed to account what to do when there's very little or no growth. Billions of people in Asia, Africa and various other parts of the world bought almost exclusively what we made 60 years ago, all the while supplying us with raw materials and energy for practically free. 30 years, they bought most stuff from us but started charging a little more for resources and selling us bits and pieces. Nowadays they sell us more than we sell them, we have to pay almost fair price for resources due to, mostly Chinese, competition.

And things are about to get worse. We can't spend now what we're going earn in the next five years because we're not going to earn much in the next five years. Waging wars and setting up coalitions of the willing are only going to slow things down, and even that only by a small margin. This is not a temporary hickup caused by irresponsible bankers or governments that will go away and things will return to old. The world is changing, days of cheap resources and energy and huge exports are over for the West. Nowadays and in the future, it's fair-priced resources and huge imports. Understand it and deal with it. The only real solution is significant drop in the standard of living in the Western world in the near future. Cutting military expenses (US I'm looking at you mostly), taxing the rich properly (no, they shouldn't be excused because they contribute to the economy, whoever thought of that maxim was obviously rich), cutting expenses, reducing debts. This will naturally reduce the standard of living but the current one is unsustainable. Do it properly and we might get through, somewhat poorer but still on our feet. Don't do it and will just have a bigger balloon bursting in ten, twenty or thirty years.

[Furunculus]

i agree with the prognosis, but not the cure.

promote growth.

[InsaneApache]

Evan Davies did a fascinating program on the BBC about how the UK exports changed in the last 30 years. From low end tech such as clothing to high end tech such as engineering.

We still do make clothes but not in the UK.

Interesting stuff.

http://www8.open.ac.uk/platform/news...ts-and-exports

[rory_20_uk]

We need low tech for the low tech member of society as there are not enough jobs cleaning the toilets of the high-tech offices.

Where and doing what?

[Adrian II]

We need low tech for the low tech member of society as there are not enough jobs cleaning the toilets of the high-tech offices.

Where and doing what?

Plumbing and construction (city infrastructure all over the west is derelict). Carpentry (i.e. making better furniture than IKEA's crap). Public transport (turning it into the success it should be instead of privatised failure). There are loads of useful employment possibilities of we decide that we want to be a society after all, not just a bunch of autonomous citizens.

Much of this will require more public investment and fewer bail-outs for banks. In fact, it will require a restructuring of the financial system. If that happens at all, it'll be years and years before we get there.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

I know the areas the UK is deficient in.

But in the UK, fame is around the corner, isn't it? Everyone is going to get rick quick by becoming a celebrity or someone famous. Trades appear to be sneered at in the UK - everyone needs a degree, right? Better to have a BA in Sociology than have the ability to build something. Scrap a lot of funding for the Universities (I'm sorry, but and have better links with Industry - especially smaller companies that focus on vocational roles.

Most of the possibilities require people to want to undertake these activities - possibly working for low wages until their skills improve and quite possibly accept that they will never be a squillionaire. Germany has a lot more respect for Engineers than the UK manages.

Most public transport was privately built and often worked quite well back then. After making it into a public enterprise and then dividing it in a nonsensical way managed the current English art of managing to make something that fails in both categories. One company owning all facilities in one area of the UK for example, rather than several which is nonsensical. Concerning the Underground, automating all the underground trains would be another aspect that should be addressed. In these days having trains that do not require drivers should be simple... Oh, we do on the Docklands - it is being delayed by the unions. What a shock. Considering the cost per driver per year is about £35,000 in salary, I am sure we are looking at a cost of over £40k each. Multiply that by the number of drivers and that is a vast sum that would be better invested.

Perhaps it needs saying again: the governments bought into the banking system at almost the bottom of the market. The bank profits remain depressed as they are paying billions to the government in insurance premiums. It was not a blank cheque of money that disappeared into salaries without any payback from the banks. If a vulture fund had done this there would be squeals of protest about the Evils of Capitalism.

[Adrian II]

Concerning the Underground, automating all the underground trains would be another aspect that should be addressed. In these days having trains that do not require drivers should be simple...

Not if you want to re-establish social control, respect for public property &cetera. People are sick of talking to machines already. Scrapping drivers, replacing ticket-sellers and ticket-controllers by machines, replacing surveillance by CCTV - that's exactly the sort of depersonalisation of public space that invites daily violations of order and the law. One of the reasons why public transport in the west is not taking off as it should is that we have turned it into a social wasteland. We have privatised it, we want the cheapest fares, and then we are surprised when carriages collide for lack of maintenance and train and subway stations become hoodlum territory.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

I specifically said drivers. You could have the money spent on more people on say £15k who just walk the stations and / or trains to give out help / advice and act on low level crime. A driver has almost no human contact as it is with anyone.

In the UK carriages have usually collided when the (human) driver missed a red light or a warning noise - the computer noted it, the human screwed up.

Privatised does not have to mean inhuman. If you've been to a private hospital they are often more pleasant environments. If state institutions there is often little thought as to the best make up of staff. In my example above, one could almost double the number of staff in the system by getting rid of obsolete expensive ones and getting in more useful cheaper ones.

I'm currently doing some work on reorganising hospitals. One glaring thing is often how the staff mix is not what is required - from poor allocation of cleaners of all staff paid to work until 7 yet theatre stops at 5 - and therefore no one works on a friday and the theatres are not used. Something as simple as getting them to finish at 5pm and work on the next day makes things massively more efficient. Yet it has taken years for this change to be implemented.

[Fragony]

For the Dutchies http://www.artikel7.nu/?p=66185

Somehow 'I told you so' doesn't quite cover it.

[Furunculus]

could the non-dutchies please get a precis of this valuable addition to the eurozone debate? ;)

[Fragony]

could the non-dutchies please get a precis of this valuable addition to the eurozone debate? ;)

It's an old column by Pim Fortuyn, he's warning against what happened. That a universal coin for strong and weak economies is madness, and it goes exactly as he says it would. Smart guy

[Furunculus]

It's an old column by Pim Fortuyn, he's warning against what happened. That a universal coin for strong and weak economies is madness, and it goes exactly as he says it would. Smart guy

apparently so, but in plenty of good company.

[Fragony]

apparently so, but in plenty of good company.

Highly doubtfull if the Dutch left was right about him at the time ;)

[Adrian II]

For the Dutchies http://www.artikel7.nu/?p=66185

Somehow 'I told you so' doesn't quite cover it.

He was a bit late, wasn't he? Until 1996 Fortuyn was in favour of the euro. I have argued against it from the very start, even before the Maastricht Treaty.

Lefties in The Neds were arguing against the euro long before all these latter-day converts like Fortuyn and Wilders.

Kees Vendrik, Robert Went, many many more.

Ook was Vendrik al een lange tijd bezig met het onderwerp van de Europese munt. Al in 1998 publiceerde hij het boekje De prijs van de euro over de financiële gevolgen van de invoering van de euro. In de Groene Amsterdammer vertelt hij over de huidige eurocrisis dat “Financiële markten in de gaten [hebben] gekregen dat de huidige monetaire unie rammelt. Eén munt zonder vergaande economische, fiscale en politieke integratie is geen houdbaar recept gebleken. Als Europa de euro wil behouden, heeft ze een nieuwe menukaart nodig.”

link

AII

[Fragony]

He was a bit late, wasn't he? Until 1996 Fortuyn was in favour of the euro. I have argued against it from the very start, even before the Maastricht Treaty.

Lefties in The Neds were arguing against the euro long before all these latter-day converts like Fortuyn and Wilders.

Kees Vendrik, Robert Went, many many more.



AII

Excuse us rightwingers for not wanting a political union either

[Adrian II]

Excuse us rightwingers for not wanting a political union either

Quick, change the subject.

AII