Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[Zack]

Vote: choxorn

Following from yesterday.

Then as a heads up you kinda need to make sure you've satisfied the living townies with your defense, rather than worrying about whatever you thought you convinced me of or not, because they are the ones who would be lynching you.

You and Andre are the only ones who have been accusing me. Neither of you are living townies; ergo, I am not going to worry over satisfying the living townies with an unnecessary defense, as it has already been made clear in the thread.

[Beskar]

My suspect was night killed... so... yeah. It is 4am at the moment, I will make a new case in the morning if anything comes up that looks interesting from my notes (which are on other computer).

[Riedquat]

Autolycus, Captain Blackadder and Khazaar... I would like to know more from them... I don't remember when was the last time I've read something from them.

Reading night 3 writeup atm...

[Choxorn]

You know, Zack, I'd have to say you had a point: I should probably have followed up on johnhughthom. Maybe I would have caught some of these things sooner:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Riedquat

Welcome newbie.

Standard Day 1 Vote.

If I were mafia I would do this to make it look like I wasn't paying attention.

Posted from a mobile telephony device

etc.

Said in response to ATPG's first vote on woad&fangs. It's almost like he's trying to be scummy.

Because it's rare that a townie would care enough to check up and post in a game when away from their comp. Supposedly.

Explaining to someone the phone = scum connection, could really be either townie or scummy.

What kind of conference could somebody with grammar that appalling possibly be going to?

Fluff.

Vote: God Emperor

Don't forget to insert some stuff here in an effort to pretend I thought long and hard about the vote before posting.

Bandwagons God Emperor a couple of hours before the end of the day (he was the 11th person on the wagon) and inserts fluff in lampshade form.

Vote: glyphz

I believe I have mentioned my penchant for ties on numerous occasions.

You may notice our previous posts were at the same time. I know you think I'm awesome, I didn't realise you believed me to have psychic powers.

unvote, Vote: fluffy

How can I resist such a flattering assumption of mine.

Woah, maybe you're right Roman. Another crosspost kept the tie...

All of these were in quick succession, about midway through day 3. He voted glyphz to tie it up, then switched to fluffy after crossposting twice. This was when everyone was close, instead of just the two runaway wagons on glyphz and Fluffy. He disappeared for the rest of the day. It's the kind of thing a scum could do to look like they were doing something and being a good townie who votes without actually doing much.

No time to read up, so I'm going to follow Renata. Vote: glyphz

Just randomly joins the glyphz wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Askthepizzaguy

Why not?

To see what happens.

And this is one of the first things that really set off my scum alarm. He switched and voted ATPG for no real reason- all of two minutes after Khaan posted a tally showing glyphz was at 7 votes and ATPG at 5. ATPG later ended up being lynched. I find it doubtful he did that for no reason- he saw that he could save glyphz and did exactly that, or he saw that he could lynch ATPG and did exactly that. Doing it to save glyphz makes him scummy because he was voting him earlier- meaning, if he was a townie, he wouldn't attempt to save glyphz for no reason, but if he was mafia, would of course want to save his mafia partner. Doing it to lynch ATPG also makes him scummy, because there was no reason for him to do that as a townie, and mafia often suffer from "Must Lynch ATPG Syndrome"- certainly more than townies do.

Still, this vote switch alone isn't normally something I'd find that scummy. What I find really scummy is that he did it almost immediately after khaan posted a tally, 40 minutes before the end of the day. I highly doubt that was a coincidence.

And now, for a lot of posts he made the following night, his most active period by far:

Like you said, you're new so I fixed that for ya. You're welcome.

Gah, you only quoted me to highlight my poor grammar and make editing the original pointless, didn't you?

Conversation with Zack and Riedquat about grammar. Also fluff.

Hey guys! The way forward for your unresolved sexual tension.

Trying to get Earthling and TLD to shut up. Had you succeeded, I would gladly give your obvious scumitude a pass and just let you win the game, because anyone who can make Earthling stop being Earthling deserves to win the game, and all future games, and also deserves Over 9000 pounds of pizza to be sent to their home every week, as well as Over 9000 Virgins.

But, that feat is impossible, so I must continue with my case, sir.

Ummm, are you volunteering to be Warman's new hobby?

More fluff.

Pretty much my fault for tying the vote to provoke a reaction. Why he was in a position to be tied ( not like that, that's khaan's job), I don't know.

Really? You were paying so little attention you didn't notice the tally that Khaan posted 2 minutes before you switched your vote? I find that hard to believe.

Sigh...

Okay Double A:

If I was mafia trying to appear as town I'd sit on my hands and vote randomly like I usually do.

According to Askthepizzaguy mafia 101 this post makes him scum.

That's about 5 games worth of analysis right there by my usual standards. Zack's been chatty without much substance recently. 8 games.

I do try, I've even managed to bring up all of a persons posts at once, though it was only 3 posts. I'm hoping to graduate to analysing voting patterns sometime in the next decade. After that who knows?

After Andres started getting suspicious of JHT, he asked him about Double A, and this was how john replied. Of note is that he called Double A out on the "If I was mafia..." thing when he did the exact same thing on day 1.

What's wrong with that?

I'm not sure what to think of this.

Vote: White_eyes.

Not sure why I'm following Secura, she sucks at large games.

Like I said the last time I found this to be suspicious, he joined a bandwagon at the end of the day (well, before Khaan extended it 12 hours) for no real reason two days in a row. Now, this time, White Eyes was leading the vote by 7-4 over Earthling, with TLD and Chaotix at 3, and White Eyes was likely a scum himself, but on the other hand, if someone else with a few votes was one of john's teammates and White Eyes wasn't, it couldn't hurt to tack another vote on him, And even if White Eyes was one of john's teammates, it's not like scum never vote teammates after they're already sure they're going to get lynched- as in this case. And regardless, joining a sudden bandwagon at the end of the day is still scummy.

Nope.

His non-response when I accused him.

Hmm, dead Secura. Didn't see that coming...

More fluff.

Vote: Renata

Bandwagoning again? Okay, this time, he was third on the wagon instead of at the end of the round, but "Third on the wagon" is one of the scummiest places to be on the wagon.

Gah, people are capitsing the j when my name is acronymed now...

The vote switch on to pizza when he got killed was just to see how people responded, provoke a reaction, I didn't expect him to be lynched. I can't remember the other one, probably the same reason.

A bit of fluff first when he was again called out on the vote-switching, this time by Ironside, again with that ridiculous excuse.

Vote: Reenk

I don't care if he's dead I want to kill him again.

Yet more fluff.

Unvote, Vote: Diamondeye

Following up Riedquat's FOS.

So, his reasoning for voting Diamondeye is that Riedquat FOS'd him- and voted for Seon.

This vote put the tally at Seon- 4 Diamondeye- 3, for all that matters. It's certainly a scum indicator if Seon was his scum teammate.

Vote: Andres

Bandwagoning again? He was 4th on the wagon and joined it about half-way through the day, before the cult was mentioned. Seems like just a standard bandwagon vote- which is all he's ever done the entire game. Also of note is that he's rates a 6/8 in mafia ESP, ATPG's theory that people the mafia vote for tend to end up dead later. Of the 8 people he's had his vote on at the end of the day, 6 were that day's lynch. The only exceptions were Riedquat on Day 1 (and Day 1 votes hardly count for Mafia ESP, or anything else) and Diamondeye on Day 7. He's also voted for glyphz twice but later changed his vote.

You can disregard that last bit on choxorn, it was my awesome defence that kept him from following up.



Why would anybody follow up after that, totally not scummy at all sir, defence?

Another non-response and fluff post.

TL;DR version: johnhughthom has done nothing all game but bandwagon and make fluff posts, and he's made several really scummy moves- most of all, his vote-switch that ended up lynching ATPG on Day 4.

Vote: johnhughthom

[Ironside]

You and Andre are the only ones who have been accusing me. Neither of you are living townies; ergo, I am not going to worry over satisfying the living townies with an unnecessary defense, as it has already been made clear in the thread.

And this comment is not scummy at all. Dead people got access to all public information like the living. So simply refusing to answer because they're dead, means that you claim that all public events and issues are irrelevant.

I still stick with my theory that Chaotix and White_eyes are linked with eachother -> high odds of Chaotix being the currupted blade killer.

Glyph and Jht are cultists.

And Zack does certainly seem to be something more than a simple townie.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

vote: Chaotix

[johnhughthom]

That's awesome choxorn, I don't think anybody has ever done one of those big long analysis thingies on me. I try to get people to do them but they think I'm mocking them. Much of the analysis was flawed, but I'm not going to spoil such a good case by defending myself. Good luck with lynching your target!

[Death is yonder]

In general I'm inclined to believe that the arrival of the dark attacker means that all four mafia members have killed at least once, giving further credence that maybe at least one was lynched.

He quickly rushed forward and swung his mighty axe in a left-swinging arc. Yaropolk managed to slide under it, and attempted to maneuver around his attacker. But the man turned on a heel and swung his axe down, catching Yaropolk's ankle and smashing it to splinters. Yaropolk planted to the ground in agony, screaming in pain. The man looked down at the doomed victim, and held his axe high for a final blow.

But he shifted his eyes away

Clarification 'khaan, is Yaro dead? I know he's on the killed list, but in terms of the write up, it sounds as if the attacker was distracted from finishing him, unless of course, the burning house collapsed on Yaro which killed him.

Alright, now back to pursuing an earlier gut suspect.

Vote: Chaotix

Glyph and Jht are cultists.

I'd like to inquire as to how you came to the conclusion. On a quick skim I don't really see it mentioned anywhere.

Nevertheless, it would be also good to have jht explain why he's been so fluff-filled.

Post Preview:

That's awesome choxorn, I don't think anybody has ever done one of those big long analysis thingies on me. I try to get people to do them but they think I'm mocking them. Much of the analysis was flawed, but I'm not going to spoil such a good case by defending myself. Good luck with lynching your target!

Nevermind, looks like jht isn't going to explain.

[johnhughthom]

Nevertheless, it would be also good to have jht explain why he's been so fluff-filled.

I haven't had any meaningful contact with anybody else in the game, all I have is fluff.

[Death is yonder]

Unvote; Chaotix
Vote: jht

So does this count as meaningful contact?

j/k

Unvote; JHT
Vote: Chaotix

[Beskar]

Actually, I have noticed something very bizarre.

Why hasn't Khazaar been wog'd yet? He hasn't voted for ages upon ages while other people have been wogged or replaced?

Is it because he sends in Night Orders or similar?

Vote: Khazaar

[Ironside]

I'd like to inquire as to how you came to the conclusion. On a quick skim I don't really see it mentioned anywhere.

Nevertheless, it would be also good to have jht explain why he's been so fluff-filled.

The jht-glyph connection is that jht has switched votes twice saving glyph.

Renata's scan on glyph says he's lying about being a normal townie. While it doesn't say anything about Renata's alignment, her thread behavior is consistant with what she claimed.

Oh, he's also a confirmed lier. Possibly a joke post, but there's things like hiding in plain sight.

Order's coming right up.

Might be my own inexperience, but I did also find the early drive towards TLD a bit odd and glypz post stood out there.

Hmmm....
Isn't it that lynching 'random someone' is potentially a 'disaster' lynch, since everyone, unrevealed, has a possibility of having a pro-town role?

You claim that you are a pro-town civilian...
so I'm assuming you're not a pro-town power role...
But you may be lying & actually be scum...
That means...
Your lynch has the least potential of being a 'disaster!'


Vote: TheLastDays

And than the post that made Renata go after him:

There's probably a 3 vote lead bet G_E & the next canditate, & at least 10 nonvoters.

Vote: God_Emperor for safe measure...

Why I think they're cult and not mafia. After White_Eyes was lynched, the number of night kills dropped, indicating that he was mafia. Glyph and jht haven't acted like they were allied with white eyes though, rather the opposite, so if I'm correct that they're not basic townies, then they are likely not aligned with mafia. Main option left is cult.

Edit: Cult also better explains the high risks glyph took there for a while.

[Earthling]

Bunch of stuff on a bunch of people. We lack far too many votes when just a few more active townies should help wrap this up right now. Living people need to
a) vote
b) provide reasons for their votes

If you're townie and not doing this, you're hurting at this point.

So the case on Chaotix is bad. Specifically, it's just flat out wrong to interpret his votes as a real effort to save white_eyes unless you have some extreme assumptions (say TLD, white_eyes, and chaotix were all scum together.) There's no way a scum, wanting to save his partner, would go out of his way to antagonize random townies and set themselves up for suspicion later when the option of pushing a lynch on clearly scummy alternatives could have saved his partner. Plus, Chaotix really lacks the negative connections to any prior scum-heavy events like the GE or attempted TLD lynches.

It's also just a much better, common sense assumption, that the accusations against Chaotix by a cultist and a serial killer, were just because they were trying to defend themselves and not because of anything inherent to Chaotix's role.

So to summarize that, Chaotix could be anything, but the connection to white_eyes just isn't a good case, it's doubtful he really would have acted like he did as scum and be so ineffective. Of course, choxorn and johnhughthom are hardly better lynches right now either. Out of the three I'd probably take johnhughthom but that's an awful choice to be in, other options are much better.

If Khazaar is not wogged, it would be save to lynch him on the good bet he is mafia.

autolycus and Blackadder I think have fewer votes and actually qualify for the WoK as per explicit game rules. I don't think Khaazar has missed 4 votes total and maybe not 3 in a row either- those two have I think. At any rate, I'd say you're right that they should be left for a day or two more and then if WoK action is not taken we have to get rid of them before the endgame, for now we have better priorities.

I had some more to say about Renata being scummy and assumptions of what went on with her being wrong, but it seemed like that would not really be helping decide anything now and we can't ultimately rule out third party alignment for sure on glyphz. So just moving on to glyphz unless people really think that discussion is needed, I'll leave it be. He could be some cult or third party, but he's been roleblocked so many times that his effectiveness would be nullified if he's anyone that mattered too, and his near lynches suggest at best a mere cult recruit.

Basically, it's not an unreasonable hypothesis that glyphz and jht could be cult, but it also doesn't seem like much to worry about right now and of course could simply be not true and just paranoia anyway. They're clearly not mafia or killers, clearly not allied in one big, dangerous cult with the late Andres and GH, and have been acting and voting against the mafia even if they are cult and ultimately anti-town. Unless we make a brutal assumption of multiple anti-town, cult-like groups we still have to deal with on limited reveals, it's more likely taking out Andres and GH was what we needed and not yet another third party group.

[Beskar]

At any rate, I'd say you're right that they should be left for a day or two more and then if WoK action is not taken we have to get rid of them before the endgame, for now we have better priorities.

Agreed. Because if they are not wogged, there might be explanations such as night actions which have influenced their longevity.

I don't think there might be a john-glyph connection, as far as I have seen. Could you point this out for me or refer to the post you did, so I have a better understanding about your argument of this?

[Chaotix]

Vote: TheLastDays

I'd rather not sit around and be lynched today.

However, can't defend myself from "gut feeling" and "it would be his style".

Do what you will.

[Ironside]

Vote: TheLastDays

I'd rather not sit around and be lynched today.

However, can't defend myself from "gut feeling" and "it would be his style".

Do what you will.

You could explain why you came up with the odd conclusion of not to lynch power roles was the lesson learned from Midgard. Since 2 known powerroles was scum and most of the early townie exposure didn't come from lynching but from duels.

Defending White_Eyes is one thing (although he has pretty much confirmed himself as a non townie based on later behavior), doing it with a flawed defense is another.

[TheLastDays]

The jht-glyph connection is that jht has switched votes twice saving glyph.

The problem is, the first time JHT put glyphz into real danger in the first place, late in the day. That would be some ballsy play were they allied. Doesn't say anything aobut them, they could still both be scum (1 Mafia and 1 Cult) but I doubt they are allied.

Can someone enlighten me what the case on Zack was? I'm not too thrilled with the Chaotix case anymore and Yaro's post makes me want to look into Zack but I'm at work so my time is limited.

[Earthling]

Can someone enlighten me what the case on Zack was?

Zack deflected a scan ability when someone tried to scan him, and was attacked by a serial killer and survived. (well, possible sk-ish neutral, no perfect guarantee of what Axeguy was as a character). Zack still has given no explanation, other than "the killer must not have a 100% chance of killing." We had two townies killed by said killer while the other surviver was GE, a non-human, non-townie.

Also, Zack has voted to lynch several townies and in defense of a couple of possible cultists/scum.