Shogun 2 Realism + | Main Thread: Feedback & Discussion

[DaVinci]

... on a second thought, Gervasi, you mean the later game around 1575 alone, right? That you can't recruit more Samurai units from on a certain stage?
Well, if my Sengoku history lessons don't fail on me, then many clans (rather all) just had issues to field enough Samurai units in the later period due to the massive losses of them in all these years of the civil war ... this alone was the REASON, that Ashigaru units were massively deployed. This is reflected in S2R+.

Edit:
The other point is, that in reality, a unit of Ashigaru would consist also of some Samurai within the same unit ... unfortunately, we can't create a mix of Ashigaru and Samurai soldiers within one unit. However, the mod offers certain Ashigaru units (ie. GeSakunin/Sakunin), which reflect this to a degree.

[Atalay]

Firstly, I'd like to say congratulations on designing a superb mod that really adds lots of flavour and excitement to an already great game. I've been playing around with it for a few months and I really like how it's progressed. The game is a lot more challenging.

Right now I'm playing as Ikko Ikki on Legendary mode with the latest patch - 2.6. I'm around the 56th turn (1560 or so?). All the great clans are going strong, with the exception of Uesegi, who was killed early by Takeda, and the Hojo, who seem to have been conquered by the Oda. Ikko holds 8 provinces and I've managed to build a strong economy by having good trading relations with almost every clan I've met and choosing my fights wisely.

A little chink I noticed: I can't recruit the Yari Warrior Monks (additional unit from AUM-sho mod) - I have a yari dojo but on the recruitment queue it states that I need to build a buddhist temple - which is obviously impossible seeing as I'm Ikko.

Also, are the Mangonels and Fire Rocketeers recruitable as Ikko Ikki? In the custom battle it lists them as unavailable, so I assume it is likewise in the campaign. I have the powder maker in one of my provinces and there's no mangonels available in the recruitment queue. Can you make them recruitable? For two reasons:

1) Seeing as historically, gunpowder weapons were available in Japan during the Sengoku Jidai, why shouldn't these weapons be available to the Ikko? If they can recruit matchlocks, it follows that they can also manufacture simple projectile weapons such as a fire rocket or catapult. I'm not saying they should get cannons, as that requires a considerable amount of engineering, but all sorts of gunpowder weapons including rocket projectiles saw widespread use in Asia as early as the 12th century - it would be easy for the Ikko to capture these weapons during uprisings, or convert artisans who have the skills to build them.

2) Gameplay wise the Ikko have a very limited variety of units, and with the S2R+ additional restrictions especially on archers it kind of boils battlefield strategy down to point-click-charge with massive units of cheap ashigaru, which in the later stages of the game can get kind of boring. Though neither the mangonels or fire rockets are very pivotal in their effectiveness, their animations make the game quite a bit more exciting, especially in siege battles, where they add a completely new dimension of long range artillery > archer fire > then close combat assault.

And what happened to the Naginata Ashi for Ikko? Historically the naginata was one of Ikko's preferred weapons - give it to the peasants too!

I don't mean to be nit picky, I just think these few minor changes would make Ikko more of a worthwhile clan to play in the long run verses other clans who can field a much wider variety of troops. Once again congrats on a magnificent interpretation of the game.

[Gervasi]

Honestly i don't know what you are playing there, if you have a bow dojo you are able to recruit archers, if you have the according dojo, you are able to recruit the according Samurai units ... "in this mod you can ONLY recruit yari ashigaru" ... wtf you are talking about?
I believe your install is somehow wrong, perhaps mixed with other mods.

I´m sorry, i did of course exagerate, but I was playing as Chokosabe and was expacting more emphasis on bowunits. I own 14 provinces on very hard settings but in total I can only recruit about 5 yumi ashigaru units + 3 Arquebus and 3 Yumi Samurai. When I said only Yari, I ment that for most of the other units it would say: you can´t recruit because you already have too many or something...

I didn´t really know about a lack of samurai in late Sengoku, while it sounds plausible, i find it a strange decission gameplaywise. However I would like to be able to recruit 1/3 Archery&Arquebus insted of a meagre 12 units all together...

greetz

[DaVinci]

Firstly, I'd like to say congratulations on designing a superb mod that really adds lots of flavour and excitement to an already great game. I've been playing around with it for a few months and I really like how it's progressed. The game is a lot more challenging.

Right now I'm playing as Ikko Ikki on Legendary mode with the latest patch - 2.6. I'm around the 56th turn (1560 or so?). All the great clans are going strong, with the exception of Uesegi, who was killed early by Takeda, and the Hojo, who seem to have been conquered by the Oda. Ikko holds 8 provinces and I've managed to build a strong economy by having good trading relations with almost every clan I've met and choosing my fights wisely.

A little chink I noticed: I can't recruit the Yari Warrior Monks (additional unit from AUM-sho mod) - I have a yari dojo but on the recruitment queue it states that I need to build a buddhist temple - which is obviously impossible seeing as I'm Ikko.

Also, are the Mangonels and Fire Rocketeers recruitable as Ikko Ikki? In the custom battle it lists them as unavailable, so I assume it is likewise in the campaign. I have the powder maker in one of my provinces and there's no mangonels available in the recruitment queue. Can you make them recruitable? For two reasons:

1) Seeing as historically, gunpowder weapons were available in Japan during the Sengoku Jidai, why shouldn't these weapons be available to the Ikko? If they can recruit matchlocks, it follows that they can also manufacture simple projectile weapons such as a fire rocket or catapult. I'm not saying they should get cannons, as that requires a considerable amount of engineering, but all sorts of gunpowder weapons including rocket projectiles saw widespread use in Asia as early as the 12th century - it would be easy for the Ikko to capture these weapons during uprisings, or convert artisans who have the skills to build them.

2) Gameplay wise the Ikko have a very limited variety of units, and with the S2R+ additional restrictions especially on archers it kind of boils battlefield strategy down to point-click-charge with massive units of cheap ashigaru, which in the later stages of the game can get kind of boring. Though neither the mangonels or fire rockets are very pivotal in their effectiveness, their animations make the game quite a bit more exciting, especially in siege battles, where they add a completely new dimension of long range artillery > archer fire > then close combat assault.

And what happened to the Naginata Ashi for Ikko? Historically the naginata was one of Ikko's preferred weapons - give it to the peasants too!

I don't mean to be nit picky, I just think these few minor changes would make Ikko more of a worthwhile clan to play in the long run verses other clans who can field a much wider variety of troops. Once again congrats on a magnificent interpretation of the game.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Bold parts: Done :)

Note, Ikko is historically not a clan or unique faction - they are designed in a special way in S2R+, next update will make that still more clear (ie. Ikko AI won't anymore steamroll anywhere). Anyways, yes, they are a special challenge compared to other factions.

[DaVinci]

I´m sorry, i did of course exagerate, but I was playing as Chokosabe and was expacting more emphasis on bowunits. I own 14 provinces on very hard settings but in total I can only recruit about 5 yumi ashigaru units + 3 Arquebus and 3 Yumi Samurai. When I said only Yari, I ment that for most of the other units it would say: you can´t recruit because you already have too many or something...

I didn´t really know about a lack of samurai in late Sengoku, while it sounds plausible, i find it a strange decission gameplaywise. However I would like to be able to recruit 1/3 Archery&Arquebus insted of a meagre 12 units all together...

greetz

Chosokabe has emphasis on bowunits: Most and best Ashi and Samurai archers in the mod.
And i just recommend the Jidai unit pack (DLC), so you'll get one more excellent Bow Samurai.

[Gervasi]

Chosokabe has emphasis on bowunits: Most and best Ashi and Samurai archers in the mod.
And i just recommend the Jidai unit pack (DLC), so you'll get one more excellent Bow Samurai.

sorry for posting again, just trying to get my point through. Those unit limits are really restricting. Chokosabe has emphasis on bowunits, so why, even if i have united the whole of Japan i can only recruit 5 Yumi Ashigaru and a grand total of 3 Yumi Samurai (looked it up in the pack file)? This seems pretty ridiculous to me (about 800 standard Archers for all of Japan) I would find it much better if you would have to have a ratio like you could have 1/3 samurai units, 1/3 ranged units and 1/3 Spear to reflect historic conditions and being limited by income, but than i don´t know if this is doable.

To mee it seems like the wrong approach to dictat armycomposition via unit limit.

[GShock]

I have witnessed first hand and agree with your thoughts in line of principle but take the example of shimazu. They have 4 katana sam and 2 ashi sams.
When you get higher in the tech tree, you can build the Nag ashi and one extra lesser kat sam. You also get the yari ashi with another tech but you need to have the blacksmith (which is in Satsuma).

So, as Chosokabe, you must access some resource + tech and conquer the provinces with blacksmith in order to be able to build more unit types. I can't relate to Chosokabe because I played only Shimazu and, occasionally and only for testing purposes, Date but I suppose the concept is the same.

You get more troopers once you have more provinces with different dojos and own the right resources... given the complexity of this recruitment system I recommend you to play for long and conquer different provinces in each game, then report back.

I am sure if something has been missed it will be added. I repeat, this IS a difficult recruitment system and it is both for the player AND for the modder. :)

[DaVinci]

GShock is talking about an internal wip-version, he relates it above to Shimazu's factionspecific units, that is not valid for other factions.

I might add some explanation to the Units Guide thread, when i've released the update.

[DaVinci]

sorry for posting again, just trying to get my point through. Those unit limits are really restricting. Chokosabe has emphasis on bowunits, so why, even if i have united the whole of Japan i can only recruit 5 Yumi Ashigaru and a grand total of 3 Yumi Samurai (looked it up in the pack file)? This seems pretty ridiculous to me (about 800 standard Archers for all of Japan) I would find it much better if you would have to have a ratio like you could have 1/3 samurai units, 1/3 ranged units and 1/3 Spear to reflect historic conditions and being limited by income, but than i don´t know if this is doable.

To mee it seems like the wrong approach to dictat armycomposition via unit limit.

In terms of realism-modding approaches, you are just wrong.

Here, check that, for a quick rough idea (DeMolay's post #6): http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=479507
And this for a closer picture: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=441983

If i would not use unit limitation, then the game would go with an ahistorical vanilla/campaign arcade system. There are mods like Darth Mod or Radious Mod mere of that direction, maybe those are more of your taste, they have no unit limitation, afaik, campaign-balancing is just not based on realism backgounds.

[Gervasi]

Apparently I constantly fail to make my point clear. So I try one more example of what buggs me.
Say Japan is devided in 5 clans, all those clans together could have about 20 Yumi Ashigaru. If I were to conquer all those clans and thus make them one huge area i could all of a sudden only have 5 Yumi Ahigaru (in case of Chokosabe). That doesn´t make sense.
Unfortunately I do not know about the mechanics of modding this game and if what I wish for could be achieved, but with the current system, I cannot compose my army historically (in what I perceive as historically correct mainly based on books of the Osprey Series). I would e.g. like to have 1/3 Archers and Arquebus without taking stupid Wakko pirate Archers, but if you have more than one major army that is near impossible.

I do very much like a hardcore realism approach to games, thats why I chose this mod and gameplay felt quite good, until I hit those severe restrictions.
What I would like to see, isn´t it possible to have kind of fixed recruitment lists for the KI? So they wouldn´t spam one unit or whatever? And wouldn´t it be a better approach to restrict access to units by regions owned, say province a -> 2 Samurai units 2 Archer and 4 Spear?

I´m sorry if I sounded too negativ or something, I just felt that to be a bad design choice that takes away a lot of fun in gameplay, it might be the best aproach to realizing realistic army compositions but i do not find it satisfying.

The one reason why I could not play any other mod is your Bow Samurai Units! Finaly someone who understands that a samurai using a bow would still be a capable melee fighter. I do love this design decission of yours!!!!

[DaVinci]

Say Japan is devided in 5 clans, all those clans together could have about 20 Yumi Ashigaru. If I were to conquer all those clans and thus make them one huge area i could all of a sudden only have 5 Yumi Ahigaru (in case of Chokosabe). That doesn´t make sense.

Right, i'm working on that.
The modding of the game into this direction needs unit-additions, and the recruitment of those unit additions via certain buildings. I'm currently working on the system, that allows a kind of ZoR/AoR units, but i won't really make them region-resource dependent, but building- and art-researchment dependent to delay their availability. While also, i'm doing it with faction-consideration, not all factions shall have the same abilities.

A system with region-resource-dependence is in TROM3, needs a lot of time modding that approach, and is just another approach, i like it, but i won't realise that, because S2R+ is not at the start, plus it would mirror TROM3 with a slight other design only .. however, main reason is, S2R+ is vastly advanced, and starting from scratch would need another half-year (or longer) until i have it balanced like i want it.

[DaVinci]

Just info:

S2R+ version 2.9 will be released after CA's big patch release.

V 2.9 will have a lot alterations. Modding contents are (again) overworking the gameplay, realism, BAI and CAI aspects.

We developed and tested/discussed internally, since the public release of v2.6.
Means, we have dozens 2.7x.x versions and currently multiple 2.8x.x versions in the making.

[GShock]

11 days to go for the patch. :)

[Hister]

They say it's never wise to say in advance it will be the best mod of them all but I will never the less! ;)

[DaVinci]

S2R+ 2.9 released.

[GShock]

You were waiting for the forums to be updated?!!?! :) :) :)

[Hister]

Nope, release was done prior to update.

[DaVinci]

Testing internal versions:

If somebody is an avid S2R+ player of the recent published versions, has time and fun to help with betatesting, please leave a post here.

Afterwards i would give instruction how to access the dev forum for participation in the dev group.

[dbzvl]

Testing internal versions:

If somebody is an avid S2R+ player of the recent published versions, has time and fun to help with betatesting, please leave a post here.

Afterwards i would give instruction how to access the dev forum for participation in the dev group.

Hello!

I play S2R+ about 12.5 hours a week. I've been playing since 2.0 and I really like it.

[DaVinci]

... welcome here, dbzvl. And you wanna help with betatesting?

Then go to Settings (most right at the top of the forum), and search for 'Groups', apply 'Membership' on S2R+, afterwards i can accept your access to the dev forum (when i check the section).
The dev forum will become visible for you in the S2R+ public forum after i have accepted your access, then you can enter the dev forum, and leave a first post in the Welcome thread. A recent int. version 2.95 waits for download/playtesting.

[Hister]

Welcome dbzvl, hop aboard.

[DaVinci]

Welcome dbzvl, hop aboard.

No application by him as of yet. If he appears in the 'group join request' section, you can give him access (with your new moderator power, if provided by the administration), when i'm not around.

[DaVinci]

Just accepted dbzl's request, welcome once more. I have not time now ... later.

[buujin]

Hi I havn't posted in the ORG in years!

I got this mod 2 days ago and have played about 10 years into a Uesegi campaign on H/H

I understand and really like the concept behind the mod and the new variety of units is appealing and exiting.

But It does seem that archers in general (in terms of ranged effectivness) have been nerfed almost to the point where they are not worth aquiring.
Several units such as Samurai Archers, Wake Archers and Bow Cavalry have only 3 ammo!. I think the max ammo ive seen of any bow unit so far is about 12, are you sure this is 'realistic'?

It it seems like ranged combat as a core element of the game play has been practically removed.

Am i missing something?

Thanks for you all your hard work DaVinci

[DaVinci]

Hello and welcome.

Please read the discussion on S2R+ TWC thread about it, some of the recent posts are about that point.

Realistic is imo., if Samurai's with bows have some lethal arrow shoots (esp. for the mounted ones), not valid for all other bowmen who are support troops. Samurai with bows are no archers per se in S2R+ nor skirmishers, they are Samurai with bows who fight primarily in melee, but initial use their bows. Regular archers are support troops, as said. Reflected in this mod is, that the old days of traditional Samurai fighting (with range skirmishes and following single warrior melee fights, with all belonging warrior ethos) got to its end in this period of Sengoku Jidai, i suggest read about the Sengoku period, and the former art of war in Japan.

The new DLC RotS is more about your idea of

ranged combat as a core element of the game play

... also TWS2 vanilla, but "wrongly" created by CA, just vs. Sengoku historical backgrounds.

Still, in S2R+, the archer support is a vital and important element in the battle mode, can't see how one can think that they make no sense anymore.
And ammo of 12-15 is alright, realism-wise (and gameplay-wise), in the field. The Shiro archers (garrison bows) have much more ammo.

[buujin]

Thanks for you replay.

I agree that bow units in vanilla are overpowered in terms of both accuracy and ammunition. Perhaps 12-15 arrows for ashigaru units is fair enough. But can you honestly believe that samurai who train most of thier lives in the way of the bow and mounted archers would come to battle equipped with only 3 arrows???

Perhaps it would be a good idea to increase ammo for bow units once that faction/province construct the relevant archer dojos? that would simulate a clan archery specialisation well i think.

At the moment the mod feels good to me but i find that even when i have 4-6 bow units i never manage to kill more than 30 or so enemies at range before either they close distance or all my ammo is spent already.

Just a few other general comment about the mod;
Units seem to go red (ie auto-disband after the battle due to casualites) more that in TWS2. I dont know whether this is something you have control of from a moddinng perspective.

But I think samurai eccpecially shouldnt disband so easily (yesterday i had a battle in which 28 of m y 75 warrior monks survived but the whole group disbanded, they didnt rout or shatter during the battle either). I would expect a general/diamyo would do everything he can to keep and reform his elite troops after a battle. If this were only ashigaru I dont think it would be such an issue because they can be replaced quite easily.

I think this might have been mentioned before but it seems strange to me how similar samurai and ashis are in terms of recruit and upkeep costs. I would have thought samurai would require a much higher wage than ashis.

Also why has 'loose' formation been removed? Was it not a tactical formation used historically?

Finally, I notice that Ronin samurai have the same if not more morale than clan sams. I would have thought since Ronin have no true master (other than thier unit leader?) and would be less loyal to the general of the battle, that they would be less inclined to "fight to the death" (ie would have less morale) than clan-loyal samurai.

Many thanks

[Hister]

I agree that bow units in vanilla are overpowered in terms of both accuracy and ammunition. Perhaps 12-15 arrows for ashigaru units is fair enough. But can you honestly believe that samurai who train most of thier lives in the way of the bow and mounted archers would come to battle equipped with only 3 arrows???

First read that thread that was suggested to you by Da Vinci because it seems you haven't yet. Your question has already been answered by him there. Otherwise you have to make abstractions in the games like S2 and not reflect reality exactly as is simply because the game has hardcoded limits which don't allow or cope well with the real figures. Da Vinci is well learned in the historical facts so I'm sure he can tell you exactly how many arrows of which type samurai units took with them on the battlefield. I'm sure there were more then 3 but if you want to simulate that it is not possible in S2. What you can do is make an abstraction of reality back then adjusted to the game mechanics and you get the best possible approximation. Da Vinci is a veteran in this respect so you will hardly have any chance of changing his mind ;)

Just a few other general comment about the mod;
Units seem to go red (ie auto-disband after the battle due to casualites) more that in TWS2. I dont know whether this is something you have control of from a moddinng perspective.

That is intentional and was made especially for this mod. Note that AI can't merge units so it's better that hardly damaged units auto-disband. This is also in line with reinforcement rates. You (and the AI) are better of building new unit then waiting 30 turns for the unit to get replenished.
This is all well thought out and implemented for better campaign gameplay experience.

I would have thought samurai would require a much higher wage than ashis.

Not correct - samurais provided their own equipment and supplies in exchange for the ability to be feudal lords while recruited peasants needed to be armed, trained and fed - all this payed by the guy who summoned them.

Also why has 'loose' formation been removed? Was it not a tactical formation used historically?

New patch from CA changed some parameters and DV would have to mod the loose formation to units anew but he wanted to get rid of it before 'cos AI units don't use it so the player had an advantage over AI in this regard. He would also like to get rid of all other unit possibilitie which aren't used by the AI and those are almost all those special abilities. If you use a special ability that AI doesn't use means you are cheating so you are ought not to use tehm when playing this mod (house rule).

Finally, I notice that Ronin samurai have the same if not more morale than clan sams. I would have thought since Ronin have no true master (other than thier unit leader?) and would be less loyal to the general of the battle, that they would be less inclined to "fight to the death" (ie would have less morale) than clan-loyal samurai.

I'l let DV answer this one.

[DaVinci]

Buujin, when the mod is final, i'll create a new unit guide, where also the unit cost/upkeep are mentioned. Else, did you already read the Gameplay Hints thread, ie. regarding the player-buttons in battle mode?

... so you are ought not to use tehm when playing this mod (house rule).

... here Hister goes a bit too far ;) ... no houserule, a recommendation. Everybody can play as he wants, of course.

Ronin samurai have the same if not more morale than clan sams. I would have thought since Ronin have no true master (other than thier unit leader?) and would be less loyal to the general of the battle, that they would be less inclined to "fight to the death" (ie would have less morale) than clan-loyal samurai.

Next update will adjust those morale things once again for the Samurai class units - in this mod, the elite Samurai (ie. Oban and Sensei) and full retainer Samurai (Shin) will have the highest morale, besides Monks. Anyways, Ronin wouldn't have less morale per se than an usual Samurai. If a Ronin goes into service, he'll be loyal to his master ('Bushido' known?), and due to loyal service they can even become retainers (Kashin or Shin) again, after all a Ronin is not in every case born as landless Samurai. I would assume in some cases a Ronin has even more morale/loyalty than some retainer Samurai, just not every retainer can be assumed as 100 % loyal follower of its overlord.

[Kaiser de Emperana]

I would love, if you would add Multiplayer Campaign Support, because playing Solo isn't as funny as playing with a friend.

[DaVinci]

I would love, if you would add Multiplayer Campaign Support, because playing Solo isn't as funny as playing with a friend.

Using a mod that changes MP unit codes and using Steam MP platform causes bad results for your avatar achievements, they'll be set back to zero (done by CA to prevent MP cheating).
That was reality in the past, i don't know if this is still the case with recent CA MP patches.
If this is solved somehow, then i can create also a complete MP balance along the S2R+ design.
In other words: if you or somebody else confirms 100 %, mods can be used on Steam MP platform without the said issues, then report back here about it, and modding on that part can be started.

This would be generally:
All unit cost/upkeep which are there for MP mode (still vanilla), along the S2R+ SP design.
Putting back all MP unit entries (which i removed recently), and balancing them accordingly in S2R+ design.

LAN: Assumed, at least all LAN MP games could be playable exactly with S2R+ design then, without to cause Steam issues, i could do that also independent from the Steam platform issue.
But, i would do that separatly for LAN only, if there is a relevant number who plays S2R+ actually on LAN mode, or however, independent from Steam MP mode. And i don't know if this is realistic.