what price exactly? I always hear Americans and Brits speak of this supposed price but I am not aware of any.
I am supposing you mean a price in terms of restrictions to your liberty...or do you mean actual monetary expenses??
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
what price exactly? I always hear Americans and Brits speak of this supposed price but I am not aware of any.
I am supposing you mean a price in terms of restrictions to your liberty...or do you mean actual monetary expenses??
"If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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"That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
- Calvin
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
It's a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law thing.Originally Posted by Ronin
There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.
"The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Very easy for the government to frame you if they have your fingerprints and DNA. They aren't getting mine I don't trust the police. Nor do I trust judges. I don't trust anything government, you can't
Last edited by Fragony; 09-28-2011 at 12:24.
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Calm down Jason Bourne :P
and btw...my government doesn´t have my DNA....that have 1 picture and the fingerprint of my right index finger...that's it.
It's way cheaper than that over here....that price does sound steep for something that is mandatory
It just seems natural to me that if you are a citizen of a country, then the government issues you a document identifying you as such.....
if they don´t then what is a valid form of identification if you don´t drive a car or don´t want to travel internationally? You simply don´t have a legal id? doesn´t that raise all sort of problems?
And btw, I am 29 years old and live in the biggest town in my country, we have (cue ominous music) a national identity card.
Total number of times I was required to show ID just for walking down the street -> 0 I´m feeling I can live with that.
Last edited by Ronin; 09-29-2011 at 08:01.
"If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
-Josh Homme
"That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
- Calvin
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
i know Andres has disagreed with me on this, but i remain unconvinced by his argument, and remain convinced that it is fundamentally a Common Law thing:
English Common Law with its roots in the concept of Natural Law has led to a presumption of negative liberty; I am free to do anything that which is not specifically proscribed by the law. Rights are defined as being against interference by the sovereign in the liberty of individual on matters of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
Continental Civil Law with its closer association with Legal Positivism has led to a presumption of positive liberty. It is my right, as codified in the system of laws, to be able to act in this manner. Rights are defined as things you are allowed to do by the sovereign such as freedom of religion, speech, press, and assembly. You are enabled to do these things.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
@Ronin And if you are suspect of a crime, police is sure you did it but they can't proof it, no thx. Prosecuters tend to 'make' a case. Plenty examples of that.
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
zero reported cases of such a thing happening over here don´t give me cause for alarm....there have been a couple of cases of interrogations getting kinda "heated" let's say...but nothing as clever and sophisticated as you are suggesting.
on the other hand look at the number of prisoners in the united states being cleared while they are sitting in death row....and they don´t have ID cards.
If a state wants to **** you over I hardly thing the existence or not of a small card with some bio data is the thing that is gonna make a difference.
Last edited by Ronin; 09-29-2011 at 12:29.
"If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
-Josh Homme
"That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
- Calvin
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.
Bollox.
There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.
"The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
That case (I assume you're talking about Lucia de B) had nothing to do with ID cards, DNA or fingerprints.
Seriously, if the government had the intent of framing you by planting all sorts of evidence, having a registry of fingerprints would probably save them a haf day's work and nothing more. The only potential problem I see, in free democratic societies, is that the police will make it their modus operandi to build a case around the first fingerprint they find while disregarding all other clues, and I don't think that's in itself a particulary strong argument.
It's compulsory to carry one in the Neth's, but I don't remember anyone I know getting fined for not carrying one. The only times I was ever asked to show my ID was to get into bars or to buy liquor (I don't look my age, or so I've heard...which was something of a problem when I was in my early twenties) and once while I was on vacation in Hungary, when me and my drunk friends were being loud and annoying. I always carry mine on me just in case, can't say that it makes me feel opressed or anything.
Care to argue against it based on its merits, instead of saying it's not [-insert nationality-]?
The bolded parts are, put mildly, mischaracterisations. Codifying a right to do something is an extra garantue against government intervention and does not necessarily imply that people weren't free to do that particular thing before. There's no statute that garantues the right to breathe, eat food or sleep. It's not that civil-style governments don't see any reason not to allow it. It's that they don't see any reason to ban it. Historically governments on both sides of the channel have restricted what people could say, what they could believe and whatnot, but as TA noted, only the UK lacks constitutional garantues against such things.
Murder is prosecuted by both British and continental justice systems. But only the latter have actual statutes that define them as crimes. If it wasn't explicitly defined as a crime, it would have been legal to do.
About "negative liberty", you do realise that stuff like property (the ability/right to own, use and controll goods at your discretion), right to privacy and whatnot exist because we have laws and the authorities to enforce those laws; i.e. government intervention in the behaviour of the people?
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Comprehensive identity documentation is not a threat to anything; it's a convenience to all those involved.
If the government wanted to frame you, they'd just plant child pornography on your hard drive.
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Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
@Krazelic No it has to do with how incredibly screwed you can be once you got the wrong people against you. And you trust these guys with your fingerprints?
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
This is my take.
Liberty in the UK? Maybe - until they decide to suspend it. London and other major cities had a stop and search without cause laws. Kettling was found to be illegal months afterwards. The police not having ready access to fingerprints is only a hindrance. If the police wanted mine they merely have to arrest me on suspicion of whatever. Then yes, if they really want me they can plan those fingerprints wherever they want.
The Government knows where I live, what car I drive, my job, where my family is - and my entire medical history is only a court order away. They only don't have certain things that might be useful in emergencies such as fingerprints.
If the government really wanted me gone, they'd call in a favour with Mossad or the CIA for me to be disappeared - both of whom have expertise in this.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
I believe i just did............?
They two statements may be overstated to highlight the distinction, but i fail to see how the point is incorrect, and the first paragraph (which lacks any highlights from you), does a very adequate job explaining why i refuse to help legitimise the governments attempt to push the authority of the state where it does not belong by accepting a mandatory ID card.English Common Law with its roots in the concept of Natural Law has led to a presumption of negative liberty; I am free to do anything that which is not specifically proscribed by the law. Rights are defined as being against interference by the sovereign in the liberty of individual on matters of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
Continental Civil Law with its closer association with Legal Positivism has led to a presumption of positive liberty. It is my right, as codified in the system of laws, to be able to act in this manner. Rights are defined as things you are allowed to do by the sovereign such as freedom of religion, speech, press, and assembly. You are enabled to do these things.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
The police don't need to plant anything on you they hit you a few times and book you for assaulting a police officer game set and match.
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Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
It's incorrect, not overstated.
Legal positivism and positive liberty are completely unrelated concepts. Legal positivism holds that all substantive law should be codified in positive law; i.e. written law or statutes. Positive liberty entails the freedom from starvation, ignorance etc. which is realised by government intervention such as social security, subsidised education and whatnot.
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
There's birth certificates which I remember us using when getting my passport for the first time. And at the moment, I've got a state ID which I've found useful when I need some sort of ID. Plus, beyond a certain age, pretty much everyone has a driver's license. At the moment, I don't since I'm on a small campus but I'm sure once I get a "real" job, I'll probably have one.
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
I think the £50 required for the card was what put people off the most. End of the day, lots of people agree and consent because they feel it will help them stop criminals opposed to turning into a corrupt-police state.
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"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
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Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
I'm happy to carry papers which prove I'm qualified to drive a motor vehicle. I'm happy to carry papers which enable me to travel internationally. I'm not happy to carry papers simply to walk down the street.
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
"The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Indeed.
There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.
"The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
But don't we have that already?
I thought the National ID card simply merged several different documents into one format. So instead of possessing a passport, national insurance number, etc, they were simply inbuilt on the same ID card with biometric data so you can easily prove who you are.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Counterpoint: What if those papers could be used as the previous two?
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Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Irrelevant. The first is basically a certificate of qualification. The second is a way of easing travel to and from foreign countries (it also identifies me as a British citizen). The first I only have to carry when driving, the second when travelling abroad.
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
"The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
and you don't need to have your ID card with you at all times neither.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
Britain effectively has a national ID, or rather it has numerous overlapping schemes which require you to provide ID and they are not schemes you can typically opt out of (i.e. tax forms). Worry not about a national ID as such, if this fear of the government or the impingement of your privacy or other (valid) concerns are you point. In that case worry about your current anti-terror type laws which go well beyond, lack of accountability of parliament vs your rights as citizen (you did know that Habeas Corpus can legally be suspended at the mere whim of your political overlords? can and has happened rather a lot actually), and of course CCTV & data gathering laws...
Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 09-30-2011 at 00:25.
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Re: Proof of what a national ID service is good for.
lol, sorry, who were those "lots" of British people who agree and consent to use compulsory ID cards?
i ask because i am having trouble identifying them................
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07...ard_astroturf/
money was never a terribly significant reason to object to ID cards, people felt it was no business of the government to enforce the carrying of ID's, i.e it wasn't terribly British.A cackling Phil Booth, No2ID National Coordinator, writes to tell us that six months after he first pestered the Identity & Passport Service about its quotes from ID card-toting happy campers in its publicity material, it has confessed - um yes, all but one of those quoted worked for the government.
End of.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
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