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Thread: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

  1. #91
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    So when UK was protecting the financial man involved in the attack in France (1995, Network of Khaled Khelkal), France would have been allowed to selective killing in the UK territory, or drone attack?
    Well, if the UK was like Yemen and David Cameron was suffering 40 degree burns after a terrorist bombing in London, two armored divisions had mutinied against him and much of the country was in open revolt, hundreds of people were dying every month in armed conflict, the financial man was protected by armed insurgents, France had drones and the UK did not, the financial man had planned to bring down airliners over France (after 3000 people died, when 3 airliners crashed into La Défense and Hotel de Brienne), then absolutely, en avant mes amis!

    In such circumstances, I am sure we would declare it a Yemeni, I mean British operation.

    On the other hand, if Britain were not like Yemen, then I would hope my country would assist in bringing the man to justice without the need for an outside military operation. I am sorry if that did not happen.

    But I understand you are an ex-soldier, Brenus: how do you think governments should deal with AQ leaders such as OBL and al-Awlaki who take refuge in failed states? Would you send in drones and SEALS or would you wait for a French judge to issue an extradiction request? How do you understand French (or international) law in these kind of circumstances?

    [These are genuine questions, not rhetorical.]

  2. #92
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    So when UK was protecting the financial man involved in the attack in France (1995, Network of Khaled Khelkal), France would have been allowed to selective killing in the UK territory, or drone attack?
    well...there is no "allowed"..because there is no authority to decide what is and isn´t allowed.
    you either have the ability and the power to do something like that without being concerned about the consequences or you don´t.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    I expected the area of law and war to be underdeveloped. Somehow this topic makes me think of Pompey the Great:

    "Don't quote law. We carry swords!"
    Thought so. I could use a cathartic tirade but I suspect others here wouldn't appreciate it too much. You know that much of our law comes from English law; right?


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  4. #94
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    well...there is no "allowed"..because there is no authority to decide what is and isn´t allowed.”
    Yes there is. It called International Treaties. That is why UK can protest when a Russian is probably poisoned by KGB (under new ID) in London.

    you either have the ability and the power to do something like that without being concerned about the consequences or you don´t.” Well, that is bit tricky. In case of French terrorist protected by UK, the French had the possibility to kill him/them. The French didn’t because UK is a friendly country… Then the limits of the UK policy towards Muslim Extremists/terrorists were exposed then the UK extradited the terrorist(s)… But you are right, of course. Russia doesn’t care of UK opinion, so…

    Somehow this topic makes me think of Pompey the Great: "Don't quote law. We carry swords!" His problems came when Caesar got a bigger sword.

    About how would France react in case of terrorism (or even lesser things): We have New Zealanders in this Org who probably remember the Rainbow Warrior? One journalist killed… When Libya was a little bit too much, the French Army launched a raid at Ouaddi Doum (Wadi Dum) and pushed it back. You can find multiple example of this kind of actions…

    Now, how I think about terrorism? How to deal with them? No idea, really: Intelligence gathering, infiltration, liquidation when necessary. But it would be better to have the justice at work.
    No “friendly” governments harbouring criminals could be a good start…

    My problem is not the action, my problem is the moral lecture that we, the West, give to others. If I follow you, nowadays, the Taliban would be legitimated to launch an attack on USA towns. Or the Iraqis… So what about all the South Americans that a lot of them died thanks to the CIA and the “counter-insurgencies” programmes?
    The Army can be part of the solution, but not the entire solution. Nor the Politicians are.
    The use of violence is legitimated by laws, and has to be questioned by the laws.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  5. #95
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    well...there is no "allowed"..because there is no authority to decide what is and isn´t allowed.”
    Yes there is. It called International Treaties. That is why UK can protest when a Russian is probably poisoned by KGB (under new ID) in London.
    International treaties and the UN are good for dealing with "low intensity" issues, or issues where the the "risk vs. reward" analysis doesn´t warrant doing anything too 'forceful' to getting one's way, and risk pissing of even more the other country or the international community at large.
    taking violent and forceful action is something to be done sparingly for obvious reasons, but in limit cases it is the defining factor and not any signed treaty that might exist.
    and about that example, the UK played it's part but wasn´t bothered to take it any further, not for the killing of a Russian national, even if in British soil, so I wouldn´t confuse a protest with you know...actually doing something about an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    you either have the ability and the power to do something like that without being concerned about the consequences or you don´t.” Well, that is bit tricky. In case of French terrorist protected by UK, the French had the possibility to kill him/them. The French didn’t because UK is a friendly country… Then the limits of the UK policy towards Muslim Extremists/terrorists were exposed then the UK extradited the terrorist(s)… But you are right, of course. Russia doesn’t care of UK opinion, so…
    Like I said....how much do you have to worry/care about the reaction of the other side is the main point.
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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Thought so. I could use a cathartic tirade but I suspect others here wouldn't appreciate it too much. You know that much of our law comes from English law; right?
    Vladimir, you can save your tirade: I assure you, you are seeing national insults where none were intended. I was speaking of the sub-discipline of law and war as a universal thing, not the US army's understanding of it. It just happened that googling Pompey's quote led me to the US army's website on the Law of Armed Conflict. I was not aiming at jibe at the military of my country's ally. I don't know how much of what was on that website is international - I rather suspect the whole point of law on war is that is international; one country behaves with restraint because they want other countries to behave with restraint should they enter into conflict with them. That is one reason why I am a little dubious about relying on such law in this kind of case and why 9/11 is so important here. AQ terrorists have shown absolutely no restraint, so there can be no expectation of a quid pro quo.

  7. #97
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Problem isn't the asymmetric threats doing what they do best. It is the rule set being established with the likes of symmetric threats/equals and how they will justify the use of force.

    Looking at th different emerging powers by zone we have China, India and re-emerging Russia. Add in Brazil and Egypt as potential dark horses.

    How happy are we going to be when they apply their own twist to the rules?

    What happens when a Chinese drone accidentally hits a US embassy?
    What happens when India snaps and starts sending in special forces into Pakistan to knock off high value targets? Cashmere sweaters might be nice, Kashmir sweats from nuclear fallout won't be.
    What happens if Brazil decides to start destabilizing elected oil rich left wing parties in it's hemisphere of power?
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  8. #98
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    Vladimir, you can save your tirade: I assure you, you are seeing national insults where none were intended. I was speaking of the sub-discipline of law and war as a universal thing, not the US army's understanding of it. It just happened that googling Pompey's quote led me to the US army's website on the Law of Armed Conflict. I was not aiming at jibe at the military of my country's ally. I don't know how much of what was on that website is international - I rather suspect the whole point of law on war is that is international; one country behaves with restraint because they want other countries to behave with restraint should they enter into conflict with them. That is one reason why I am a little dubious about relying on such law in this kind of case and why 9/11 is so important here. AQ terrorists have shown absolutely no restraint, so there can be no expectation of a quid pro quo.
    No, I'm seeing personal insults and work can be a little dull.

    I was surprised that someone from a country with no written constitution is surprised that a country that does have one has a litigious society. You should also know how many lawyers we have in this country...but anyway. I supposed I'm the one that's getting nationalistic now.

    I don't really know the history of U.S. military legal evolution but suspect it received a jolt when transitioning from prewar isolationism to the postwar, Cold War era. I think you would be correct sixty-some years ago. I doubt out laws developed because we want other countries to show restraint toward us as the possibility of an invasion is remote, but it may have been a factor. We can take a more liberal interpretation on drone strikes because few nations possess the capabilities we do.

    It is really funny to read some people's reactions to this. All this outrage over law, rights, and jurisdiction is nice in their safe and secure environments.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  9. #99
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    It is really funny to read some people's reactions to this. All this outrage over law, rights, and jurisdiction is nice in their safe and secure environments.
    Oh boy, I wish I'd care enough to entertain you with personal insults mister "my country has not been invaded once for over one hundred and fifty years now, nevermind militarily occupied and politically & socially oppressed" /hugs


    I will wish you a time-warp into a safe and secure communist dictatorship like pre-'89 Romania though, your mind would open on these matters like a parachute, instantly and on time Well, hopefully, for your sake!


  10. #100
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    Oh boy, I wish I'd care enough to entertain you with personal insults mister "my country has not been invaded once for over one hundred and fifty years now, nevermind militarily occupied and politically & socially oppressed" /hugs


    I will wish you a time-warp into a safe and secure communist dictatorship like pre-'89 Romania though, your mind would open on these matters like a parachute, instantly and on time Well, hopefully, for your sake!
    It's more like people complaining how bad their life is when the hot water heater breaks when millions don't have running water. That kind of thing.

    The outrage over the perceived rights of someone who facilitates indiscriminate violence is entertaining.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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  11. #101
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    I will wish you a time-warp into a safe and secure communist dictatorship like pre-'89 Romania though, your mind would open on these matters like a parachute, instantly and on time Well, hopefully, for your sake!
    Awesome writing I like

  12. #102
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    It's more like people complaining how bad their life is when the hot water heater breaks when millions don't have running water. That kind of thing.
    The outrage over the perceived rights of someone who facilitates indiscriminate violence is entertaining.
    It's not about the chap personally, for the hundredth time -- six feet under is precisely where one should find him.


    But in the country of legalised lobby and Fox News, not understanding that a legal precendent can be spinned to justify injustice is a pity.
    And in the country hosting the headquarters of the U.N., lacking the foresight to perceive the consequences of a precedent consisting in the expedient disposal of your own citizens is alarming.


    But then again, it's the country of Ayn Rand, the person who thought human self-interest needed endorsement! So I guess we can close the argument with a friendly It takes all sorts


  13. #103
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    But in the country of legalised lobby and Fox News,...
    Sorry, you just lost me there.

    Is Fox news a cause célèbre in Romania too? I thought we already established that there was nothing expedient about the decision to kill him.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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  14. #104
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Sorry, you just lost me there.

    Is Fox news a cause célèbre in Romania too? I thought we already established that there was nothing expedient about the decision to kill him.
    Oh get used to it, everybody knows FOX is evil. Nobody in Europe watches it because they can't recieve it as far as I know, but everybody says it so we say it as well. we think for ourselves FOX can't fool us Euro's and and

    Still would like to know what you omgosh-crowd presents as an alternative to a big fat explosion as a proper ad hominem. Of course you kill them when you can? Wth is wrong with you people

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    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Well, again, lets agree to disagree, because I also think it was pointed out:
    The administration officials refused to disclose the exact legal analysis used to authorize targeting Aulaqi, or how they considered any Fifth Amendment right to due process.
    As to the Fox News tidbit, I was simply pointing out that during, lets say, an administration such as your previous one, if you add pressure groups and tools like such a partisan gutter media, the scenario where the government could have a field day making use of such a legal precedent given by their opposition is more than plausible, it's probable.

    Look, the ones arguing against this action in this thread simply ask for a legal framework to be debated and legislated previously, not for people like Awlaki to be allowed to act with impunity. Currently, your legal framework does not allow your government to punish a citizen for incitement to violence with death, that's all.


  16. #106
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    Look, the ones arguing against this action in this thread simply ask for a legal framework to be debated and legislated previously, not for people like Awlaki to be allowed to act with impunity. Currently, your legal framework does not allow your government to punish a citizen for incitement to violence with death, that's all.
    Indeed. I would like to see the DoJ OLC's opinion for US citizens on the target list made public. The work by the previous administration's lawyers at OLC do not fill me with confidence in their abilities or motives.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    I still want an alternative, if this man commits a terrorist attack somewhere in teh muslimworld AND is an American civilian... good luck fixing that

  18. #108
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    A little more detail:

    American militants like Anwar al-Awlaki are placed on a kill or capture list by a secretive panel of senior government officials, which then informs the president of its decisions, according to officials.

    There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House's National Security Council, several current and former officials said. Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate.

    The panel was behind the decision to add Awlaki, a U.S.-born militant preacher with alleged al Qaeda connections, to the target list. He was killed by a CIA drone strike in Yemen late last month.

    The role of the president in ordering or ratifying a decision to target a citizen is fuzzy. White House spokesman Tommy Vietor declined to discuss anything about the process. [...]

    Other officials said [...] targeting recommendations are drawn up by a committee of mid-level National Security Council and agency officials. Their recommendations are then sent to the panel of NSC "principals," meaning Cabinet secretaries and intelligence unit chiefs, for approval. The panel of principals could have different memberships when considering different operational issues, they said.

    The officials insisted on anonymity to discuss sensitive information.

    They confirmed that lawyers, including those in the Justice Department, were consulted before Awlaki's name was added to the target list.

    Two principal legal theories were advanced, an official said: first, that the actions were permitted by Congress when it authorized the use of military forces against militants in the wake of the attacks of September 11, 2001; and they are permitted under international law if a country is defending itself. [...]

    When the name of a foreign, rather than American, militant is added to targeting lists, the decision is made within the intelligence community and normally does not require approval by high-level NSC officials.

    Last edited by Lemur; 10-07-2011 at 15:56.

  19. #109

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    I know I should be worried about governments killing people without trials, their own citizens or not, but when I weigh it against my close friends being put in danger to fight the threat they represent then I'm all for drone stikes where our guys don't get any risk.

    And, I'm probably alone on here in this, but I'm quite prepared for a few innocents to die if it means my new grand daughter and my nephews can grow up and live their lives.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    And, I'm probably alone on here in this, but I'm quite prepared for a few innocents to die if it means my new grand daughter and my nephews can grow up and live their lives.” Well. Except of course in the few innocents are your grand-daughter and nephews…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    ...they are permitted under international law if a country is defending itself. ...
    That's the line I have been pushing in this thread. If it is legal for your airforce to bomb the enemy's airforce, then it is legal for your airforce to bomb terrorists who have killed 3000 of your citizens and are actively trying to repeat that atrocity. It's national defence. It's not punishing incitment to murder. And the passport of the terrorists is completely immaterial to the law of armed conflict in this regard.

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    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Pardon, but in my opinion there's a fallacy there similar to the "innocents may die as long as my offspring (i.e. future innocents) may live" above. With your statement you just justified the bloody massacres of any government.
    A country cannot defend itself militarily against its own citizens, its own citizens must be charged, tried and found guilty before the punishment provisioned by its legislation (which should be openly under review and should be adapted continuously yet publicly) is applied in response to the crime. Else it's like putting your foot through Pandora's box.


  23. #113

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    And, I'm probably alone on here in this, but I'm quite prepared for a few innocents to die if it means my new grand daughter and my nephews can grow up and live their lives.” Well. Except of course in the few innocents are your grand-daughter and nephews…
    Obviously.

  24. #114
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    In the Independent today: Russian Secret Services are killing Chechen Rebels every where in the world. Do you agree?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  25. #115

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    In the Independent today: Russian Secret Services are killing Chechen Rebels every where in the world. Do you agree?
    I don't really care, people I don't, and would never, know are killing other people I don't, and would never, know.

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    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    While the debate lately went further and further from al-Awlaki himself, I would imagine you lot would be as interested as I would by a detailed report on who the chap was and the al-Qa'ida medium in which he evolved.

    As American as Apple Pie: How Anwar al-Awlaki became the face of Western Jihad
    by Alexander Meleagrou-Hitchens (yep, he's the son of Christopher Hitchens, if you were wondering)
    foreword by Lord Carlile of Berriew QC
    published by ICSR


    I give you the executive summary of the report below, for a quick overview:


    Important Case Study
    • Awlaki represents the most effective and refined version of his English speaking Salafi-jihadi predecessors, who has adapted more effectively to Western political and social culture. However, unlike his forebears, he was also long considered a leading moderate Muslim and critic of al-Qaeda, having cultivated this image in the years both before and immediately following 9/11. The ideological and intellectual journey that is evident within his public discourse makes him a useful and pertinent case study for the radicalisation of Western Muslims.
    • Despite some reports to the contrary, Awlaki was well known as a popular preacher long before the recent media interest in him. According to some sources, by 2000 he was one of the most well known English speaking Islamic preachers in the United States.
    • Although there is a clear shift towards violence in his later work, a close analysis of the corpus of Awlaki’s sermons and articles shows a surprising level of consistency throughout. Little has changed from his earlier years in both his discourse and ideological worldview. Rather, the only significant change has been in the prescriptions for solving the perceived problems faced by the ummah (global Muslim community).


    Connections with the Muslim Brotherhood
    • During his time in the US and UK, many of Awlaki’s main backers and sponsors were closely tied to the international Muslim Brotherhood movement.
    • While in America, much of Awlaki’s work was more comparable with the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood than it was with al-Qaeda’s. His recommendations for Muslims living in the West were almost identical to those put forward by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of the Brotherhood’s spiritual leaders. However, even at this early stage, he displayed an admiration for Sayyid Qutb, one of the intellectual godfathers of Salafi-jihadism.


    Homegrown Jihadism
    • The story of Anwar al-Awlaki, and in particular his intellectual progression to jihad, provides a unique and revealing insight into jihadism in the West. This movement is no longer confined to Muslim majority countries, and through arguments he and others have provided, its message now resonates with small sections of Western Muslims.
    • The movement has achieved this level of resonance through a process which includes the appropriation of contemporary Western political discourse about human rights, injustice and foreign policy, interwoven with the history of Islam and the Executive summary fostering a of global Islamic consciousness which demands violent action in order for it to survive and expand.
    • Using a number of case studies of individuals influenced to act by Awlaki’s work, this report shows precisely how Awlaki has made key Salafi-jihadi theological and ideological dictums relevant and accessible to Western Muslims through translation and his use of language.
    • Throughout his career, Awlaki’s main focus has been to convince Western Muslims that their governments are actively engaged in a multi-faceted war against Islam and Muslims. During his more Muslim Brotherhood-influenced phase, his suggested responses to this threat included political activism within Western Islamist lobby groups, and as he embraced Salafi-jihadism, this gradually became a call for violence.
    • In his earlier stages, Awlaki’s ability to juxtapose key moments from the early history of Islam onto the present situation of Western Muslims made him immensely popular and easily accessible. In his later, more al-Qaeda aligned work, one can see how he employs this skill as a highly effective mobilisation tool, using the examples of Mohammed’s more violent phases to encourage modern day jihad.


    Relevance to al-Qaeda Post-bin Laden
    • A significant feature of much of Awlaki’s work is the lack of direct references to the al-Qaeda network or any of its leading members. This reflects his desire, and that of many other actors within the movement, for the global jihad to move away from a reliance on a particular group or individual, and instead to take the shape of a social movement that transcends personality, culture and organisational affiliation. This is particularly important in the post-bin Laden era, where al-Qaeda and other global jihadists are struggling to remain appealing and relevant.
    • Despite his popularity, there is a large gap between Awlaki and senior al-Qaeda leaders like the late Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abu Yahya al-Libi, in terms of both the depth of his arguments and his personal experiences in the global jihad. Awlaki’s presentation of global jihadist ideology is a simplified version of what these and other men have already formulated, and he has tailored it so as to appeal to as many people as possible within the new ‘Facebook generation’ of young, Western Muslims.
    • The vast majority of Awlaki’s output is spoken and he has written little, especially when compared to Zawahiri, whose lengthy treatises have provided al-Qaeda with its ideological backbone. In addition, Awlaki has no experience in the battlefield, which sets him apart from the majority of leading al-Qaeda members.


    Policy Implications
    • Awlaki’s story, while not providing any definitive answers, suggests that there is no easy formula or grand strategy which will solve the problem of homegrown extremism and radicalisation. In particular, it warns against policies that are predicated on the distinction between violent and non-violent actors within the Islamist movement; these distinctions are unclear, and the boundaries that do exist are blurry and easily traversed.
    • According to intelligence officials who were involved with the initial assessments of the ideologue for the United States government, Awlaki’s main role in the global jihad is ideological rather than operational. Despite his direct involvement in a number of attempted terrorist attacks in the West, it is his ability to project Salafi-jihadi ideology and mobilise Western Muslims through his sermons that represents his greatest threat. Awlaki is therefore a key tactical asset to the global jihad’s strategy for garnering Western recruits and expanding the movement.


    EDIT: I forgot to provide a link towards yesterday's article in NYT on the secret memo authorising the murder. While it will not be made available to the public, it seems there were provisions aplenty to make it a very, very special case at least.
    Last edited by Nowake; 10-09-2011 at 08:19.


  27. #117
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    One can only truly say it's not viable to take him alive if you've tried and failed. It appears that the just said "oh, it'd be impossiblt to do exactly the sort of thing we did in Pakistan - let's use a drone". Oh, good - he's involved in an undeclared war to boot so that means the gloves can really come off.

    So, he was theoretically tried in absentia without the recourse to a court or evidence and then killed...

    The flaws of having a written constitution is one looks so ridiculous when one tries to circumvent it.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  28. #118

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    One can only truly say it's not viable to take him alive if you've tried and failed.
    Why would you think that? And why would failing be good evidence, surely it wouldn't rule out succeeding next time.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Why would you think that? And why would failing be good evidence, surely it wouldn't rule out succeeding next time.
    Oh, I quite agree - so one can never say that it is impossible to do so. Yet, it appears that not even one attempt was made. Makes it look like a kangeroo court where the arguments were made to fit the decision to kill him - just dressed up in high and mightly phrasology.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  30. #120
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    Pardon, but in my opinion there's a fallacy there similar to the "innocents may die as long as my offspring (i.e. future innocents) may live" above. With your statement you just justified the bloody massacres of any government.
    A country cannot defend itself militarily against its own citizens, its own citizens must be charged, tried and found guilty before the punishment provisioned by its legislation (which should be openly under review and should be adapted continuously yet publicly) is applied in response to the crime. Else it's like putting your foot through Pandora's box.
    Reading the account of the internal legal memorandum used to justified the killing, I find the logic quite compelling if you accept that the US is at war with Al Qaeda. If al-Awlaki were serving in the army of a foreign state with which the US was at war, there would be no legal objection to a drone strike on him. The fact that he was serving with a non-state belligerent, Al Qaeda, does not change that in my mind.

    On the pandora's box, being "at war" does not justify a massace. Not every declaration of war is justified. And not every government would want to declare war on terrorist adversaries. The IRA long campaigned to be regarded as legally as being at war with the British state (e.g. to get POW rights for its prisoners) but the UK resisted this and treated them just as criminals. In the context of the more limited armed conflict with between the IRA and the UK government, restraint by the latter was probably sensible. There would have been little more likely to have generated support for the IRA than a drone strike on one of its leaders. (There was controversy over an alleged "shoot to kill" policy in N. Ireland in the 1980s but if such a policy existed it was certainly more covert than the drone strike we are discussing.) You could make the same pragmatic argument about the America's war on AQ. But the reason I keep coming back to 9/11 is that the struggle with AQ is peculiarly unlimited. It's also fundamentally international (if al-Awlaki were operating in the US, a drone strike would not have been appropriate) wherea many other terrorists conflicts are essentially internal.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Yet, it appears that not even one attempt was made.
    According to the NY Times article linked to above:

    Quote Originally Posted by NYT
    Last year, Yemeni commandos surrounded a village in which Mr. Awlaki was believed to be hiding, but he managed to slip away.
    Last edited by econ21; 10-10-2011 at 11:15.

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