Byz, High, Expert

[RRMike]

The complete lack of any decent spear is going to suck.

Wish me luck.

[Gilrandir]

Hire mercenaries (Italian infantry, chivalric sergeants, billmen), tech up for Varangians, capture Constantinople, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia asap, watch out for the Turks and abandon Georgia to the imminent Horde. Good luck.

[RRMike]

Started a quick one last night, without a lot of planning, just to see how it went and, wow! I was out of $ fast and got hammered by the turks right after I got big C. What killed me is that 5 years in I still didn't have a single governor named. The luck of the draw gave me 1 3accumen and no 4 or higher accumen unit leaders. I restarted and am going to try things a little different. Will report back.

[dickey1331]

I never liked playing with them. Prob my least favorite.

[drone]

Welcome to the Org, dickey1331!

Good luck, RRMike, you have chosen a torturous path indeed.

[Martok]

I never liked playing with them. Prob my least favorite.

I love playing as the Byzantines, but mostly in the Early period. (Gotta love them Varangians, not to mention the Comnenus Jedi-Emperors. ) I agree they're very tough in the High and Late periods, though.

[Gilrandir]

I love playing as the Byzantines, but mostly in the Early period. (Gotta love them Varangians, not to mention the Comnenus Jedi-Emperors. ) I agree they're very tough in the High and Late periods, though.

I wouldn't call them very tough, one can manage them if you are cautious enough and make a blitz in the direction of Constantinople-Bulgaria-Greece-Serbia. I did, for once - in high. Never tried late - nor with any other faction. My belief that I wouldn't have time to conquer all the map hinders my attempts thereof.

[Martok]

I wouldn't call them very tough, one can manage them if you are cautious enough and make a blitz in the direction of Constantinople-Bulgaria-Greece-Serbia. I did, for once - in high.

I've managed to be successful with the Byz in High as well -- but only once (at least that I can recall). I still maintain they're one of the most difficult factions outside of the Early period.

Never tried late - nor with any other faction. My belief that I wouldn't have time to conquer all the map hinders my attempts thereof.

Yeah, same here.

Another reason I've hardly ever played in the Late period is due to the prevalence of gunpowder units. Once they start to become common, I start to lose interest.

[Gilrandir]

I've managed to be successful with the Byz in High as well -- but only once (at least that I can recall). I still maintain they're one of the most difficult factions outside of the Early period.

I agree. I can call tough any high faction that is under immediate threat of the Horde. Thus, my list of tough factions in high (from the toughest and to the easier ones): Russians, Turks, the Byz, the Polish. I guess Russian game in high is the very essence of challenge. Never had the courage to try them myself. Another kind of tough faction in high is the French through having to split your attention between the sundered parts of the empire.

Another reason I've hardly ever played in the Late period is due to the prevalence of gunpowder units. Once they start to become common, I start to lose interest.

I never train gunpowder units - their efficiency is pathetic. When I reach the late I just disregard them (for myself) and make fun of them (for the AI).

[Vladimir]

Gunpowder units make for an unbeatable army due to a battle AI flaw. If you hold a tight formation with them just ahead of pikes the AI doesn't like to attack. Keep your flanks secure and you can obliterate them while they're confused. Just keep your flanks secure.

This was in XL.

[Trapped in Samsara]

If you hold a tight formation with them just ahead of pikes the AI doesn't like to attack. Keep your flanks secure and you can obliterate them while they're confused. Just keep your flanks secure.

Hi

Not being a fan of pikes (too little frontage, pathetically vulnerable to missiles [excepting SAPs of course], very high build requirements) I have not tried the tactic you describe, Vladimir. But it is not the case when you deploy Arqs in front of spears. I regularly see my Arqs (which I really enjoy using 'cos of the smoke and roar, and find quite effective) getting badly mauled in the early stages of a battle.

So is it ONLY the pikes+arqs combo that sees this AI behaviour, in your experience?

Best regards
Victor

[Vladimir]

Hi

Not being a fan of pikes (too little frontage, pathetically vulnerable to missiles [excepting SAPs of course], very high build requirements) I have not tried the tactic you describe, Vladimir. But it is not the case when you deploy Arqs in front of spears. I regularly see my Arqs (which I really enjoy using 'cos of the smoke and roar, and find quite effective) getting badly mauled in the early stages of a battle.

So is it ONLY the pikes+arqs combo that sees this AI behaviour, in your experience?

Best regards
Victor

I took a little liberty by taking the standard pike unit from 100 to 150. My *best* experience came from using pikes+arqs combo with both normal and modified pike sizes. I noticed similar behavior with armored spearmen but my memory with them is that it didn't work as well; no specifics.

Of course, this is late in the game with as many armor upgrades as possible. There were times when the AI did attack head on yet I was always able to win, albeit with more casualties and a harder fight than a traditional army. As long as I kept solid formation and moved forward slowly and as organized as possible I was fine. The AI liked to move toward me when I broke formation to move my army.

In all it felt like an exploit but I was near the end of my experience with the game and wanted to have a little fun and try something new.

[Gilrandir]

The complete lack of any decent spear is going to suck.

Wish me luck.

Just an afterthought. Playing as the Byz (in any period) I try to win it to Switzerland asap to get Swiss halbs and pikemen some time later to compensate for the loss of spears.

[Prince Cobra]

My favourite faction. Playing high and especially late is tricky. In high, you still have the varangians. As I see you are searching for challenge, you can reduce their use once you survive the Horde 1-2 units per stack; not that you have much time to train many Varangians before the Horde arrives... But let's go back to surviving strategy.

The complete lack of any decent spear is going to suck.

Wish me luck.

Don't underestimate their power. They, not the byz infantry, are the infantry backbone of your late/high armies. Reason for that is simple: they are very effective in engaging the enemy troops such as other spears and esp. cavalry. They have also a large unit number, gain strength from the ranks so they do it better than the Byz infantry. Your other strength are the archers. Byzantines enjoy arbalests, which are anti-armour but also extremely reliable archer unit such as the Trebizonds (+1 valour in Trebizond) or the Bulgarian brigands, which are cheaper as an upkeep, + 1 valour in Bulgaria and have relatively the same status. These are excellent against less armoured targets and horse archers. Actually, the key fighting the horde is spears + many arbalests and archers. Varangians are your killing machines but are slow to train and it will take time to build the infrastructure in Constantinople or other places. Well, they definately have a good use. Urban militia is also a good shot: it can be used very well as a flanking unit vs. armoured troops. The Pronoiai and Byzantine cavalry are your best shots for cavalry. The second are mobile, multi-purpose horse archers, the second are your best mobile cavalry (Kataphraktoi are slow and with lower attack; they are also more vulnerable to armour piercing units; redundant, in my style for high/late; I only train them if I need to refill my general unit). Use Nicaea exclusively and only to build pronoiais and built there a Master Horse breeder to increase the valour bonus from the province. There could even be about 5-6 cavalry units (with the general) in each of your full stack army, later on.

Problem: spears, Byz infantry, urban militia have low morale. Solution: build churches, build armour upgrades (if the units are for the West) as well. Byzantines were pious people, actually their Empire was based on religion.

Byzantines used to have Eastern and Western Domestikos that assumes different type of organization as well. West is a challenge: in High, and esp. if you dare to play in late (no Varangians there as well), you will face challenges: Chivalric men-at-arms are one of the most dangerous units. You don't really have much to counter it. The Pronoiai don't always cope with them, the same is true for your other units. Kill it with arrows! It's not very honourable but it's effective. Fighting in the West you should try to bring high-star generals. And yes, you will see many costly victories. Key is to have the base to replace the huge losses you will have. That's why my eyes always look at the East, at least at first. In the Western stack, Byzantine infantry should be reduced to around 2 units per stack, and can even be completely replaced by the Varangians, if available.

East: Arid ground, hills, nice sights and weather, olives! What can a man not dream of? After I fulfil my duty and conquer Constantinople and try to take Greece and Bulgaria (but not at any rate); I prefer bribing one of them. Sometimes, I leave Greece to the Italians for the time being or Bulgaria to the Hungarians (when this happen it is for longer). So assuming you've captured Constantinople (defeat the army, starve it by siege or bribe it!), you move towards Trebizond and at the same time prepare for war against the infidels that is the Turks. Asia Minor is too small for both of us. Turks are dangerous and are getting stronger over time so you should kill them fast, preferrably in the first ten turns of your High/late campaign. Once you capture Constantinople, build spies as these guys are quite good in keeping the loyalty of your newly captured provinces high. In the High era, you still have a better armies than the Turks (which need infrastructure for their best units). Byzantine infantry is still a monster in the east. They do well against the muslim infantries, perfect in the forests. Your single unit of Varangians can fight perfect in arid (not desert) ground. You have decent cavalry, though you should try to engage the enemy bodyguards in the woods or with spears; you know what your foot archers do with enemy horse archers? Right! High duel with the Turks is a challenge as it requires fighting on numerous forms. I personally follow Shades Wolf advice and move from troops to Trebizond and then attack Rum (works perfect also for late). For High, I often attack also Anatolia. Sometimes, the enemy also attacks and you see how this chess-board system works... You will sometimes be outnumbered, in other times you will outnumber. I have quite good memories from resisting a Turkish raid in Nicaea with inferior army comprised of Byz infantry. These guys do well in the woods and the clock is always on your side and stimulates the attacker to be more active as it should be!

Once you finish with the Turks, you limit your hunger for lands, develop your economy, increase your army as much as you can feed it with spears, crossbows and archers and a little bit cavalry and Varangians. Armenia and Georgia offer excellent defensive ground vs. the Horde even in expert. Once you destroy the first waves of the Horde... Well, I would go for the Holy Land. As always, my motivation is not only religious. The Byzantine infantry are superior to the Muslim infantry! By the way, sometimes, the Byz infantry unit leader get good virtues, which increased its valour. In desert these are quite good.

I hope this helps!

Mercenaries: I use them in limited numbers. And mainly as... Billmen!!! I always hire these guys and keep them as a regular army. The other mercenaries are costly and the results are mixed. I am hiring Chivalric sergeants only in critical situation such as a French crusade (Late/Expert; that came as a shock after preferring the English as allies) in the opening turns of the game. Well, I won, and the Chivalric sergeants just fought decently; my other spears also did well. The reason I dislike these sergeants is their low morale. If morale is low, you are not really up to the honour to fight for the Rhomaioi!

Well, sometimes, I get exotic units such as ALan Mercenary or Almughavars. These are worth acquiring, if you have the money.

Governors: A governor is better than no governor at all. For the governor of Constantinople I don't always pick out the best administrator but one with more stars on it and make him a solid general. 2-3 feathers of acumen are just fine. Later one I can marry him for one of my princesses and strip him of titles and give him another title. Fine and happy! And don't forget to invest in agriculture and a little bit in trade (which is nevertheless sufficient if you start a trade with Egypt or Italy)

[Gilrandir]

So assuming you've captured Constantinople (defeat the army, starve it by siege or bribe it!), you move towards Trebizond and at the same time prepare for war against the infidels that is the Turks. Asia Minor is too small for both of us. Turks are dangerous and are getting stronger over time so you should kill them fast, preferrably in the first ten turns of your High/late campaign.
I personally follow Shades Wolf advice and move from troops to Trebizond and then attack Rum (works perfect also for late). For High, I often attack also Anatolia. Sometimes, the enemy also attacks and you see how this chess-board system works...

I played high Byz expert only once and in this game, while I headed westward, the Turks captured Trebizond on the vey first turn. I can't guarantee that it will happen in other games, but one must expect this sooner or later (in my case it was too soon. It reminds me of a historic fact - the Ottoman Empire once had a sultan called Bayzid Yildirim. The latter nickname signifies "lightning-fast" in Turkish. Perhaps the game sultan could be called that as well).

[Prince Cobra]

I played high Byz expert only once and in this game, while I headed westward, the Turks captured Trebizond on the vey first turn. I can't guarantee that it will happen in other games, but one must expect this sooner or later (in my case it was too soon. It reminds me of a historic fact - the Ottoman Empire once had a sultan called Bayzid Yildirim. The latter nickname signifies "lightning-fast" in Turkish. Perhaps the game sultan could be called that as well).

It happened once in a High campaign. Occupation of my beloved trebizond province is a move i can not forgive. The result was war very few turns after I recaptured Constantinople.

By the way, in Late Turks tend to attack Anatolia. I often make spy and send it there to gain stars and foment rebellions. I Unfortunately, unless you are very lucky with defeating the rebel army in Constantinople and bribing the remains quickly, I don't see how you would get a spy quickly. I love spies, by the way, and I am quite happy the Byz have a discount for them.

[caravel]

I love playing as the Byzantines, but mostly in the Early period. (Gotta love them Varangians, not to mention the Comnenus Jedi-Emperors. ) I agree they're very tough in the High and Late periods, though.

Welcome back.

[drone]

And a "Welcome back!" to you as well.

[Martok]

I suddenly have the urge to organize a reunion tour.

Welcome back.

[gollum]

I suddenly have the urge to organize a reunion tour.

Save it for later mate, for later.. ;)

[Martok]

@RRMike: Any follow-up on this? I'm very curious as to how your campaign went/has been going!

Save it for later mate, for later.. ;)

Indeed. I gotta get my old guitar out of hock first anyway.

[RRMike]

Nah, I got frustrated with it and was doing some other stuff and then MW3 came out and I haven't really played since. I have been getting the itch again lately though so I might fire this back up soon.

[RRMike]

Picked it up again last night. I had taken too long in my initial game, getting to Constantinople and thus the Sicilians have Greece and the Huns have Bulgaria. I wanted to secure Treb. before the turks could, for those v1 treb archers, and I was too slow. I launched an attack on the Turks and took all of asia minor, minus Armenia and I managed to get Georgia to rebel so that I wouldn't be automatically at war with the horde when it arrived. The turks went down without too much trouble. I then attacked the Eggies and was in the middle of my campaign against them when I parked the game.

I kinda screwed up by not having a clear idea of the builds I wanted to set up so it's kinda a hodgepodge right now. I have two stacks on big C and the huns hit it every few years and get their asses kicked but I'm focusing my attention on trying to get a one province border in Egypt or Sania, would prefer Egypt, obviously, but the Italians are in Cyr. so I imagine they will grab Egypt before I can. I managed, last night, to get familiar with what I was doing. I now have Antioch and Tripoli under siege, Palestine is mine, as well as the rest of the ME/AM and the only Egyptians left are a single heir and one other unit in Arabia, where I want them to end up, and the Sultan and a big stack on Egypt. Unfortunately there are two stacks of rebels in Sania.

In the NE I have an alliance with the horde and they have 3 stacks between Georgia and Armenia but a lot of it is garbage. I'm facing them with a 2/3 stack in treb and another in Rum. They haven't moved around a lot so I think they're sitting tight for a bit.

I want to get Egypt secured, keep the eggies on life support in arabia and start to move in on the Huns for their iron. I'm allied with both the Sicilians, who are fighting along the Adriatic with the huns now, and the Italians, who are pulling off amphibious landings all over that I can see. I've done everything I can to keep both of those alliances as either can crush my fledgling fleet and I'm very dependent on my little bit of trade to keep out of the poor house. I have my one island (Rhodes?) making boats non stop and I have them from the black almost to Gibraltar.

[Gilrandir]

Head for Bulgaria. Once you hold it you will have a river border to the north and north-east so the Huns (and those who hold Moldova) will have to cross bridges to get at you. But beware a stab in the back from the Sicilians in Greece.

[Martok]

^ In fact, just beware of the Sicilians backstabbing you, period!




Overall, though, I'd say you're doing about as well as could be expected or hoped for at this point. Other than seconding Gilrandir's recommendation of grabbing Bulgaria, you're pretty much already doing what I would be, were I in your shoes.

Thanks for the update, and good luck!

[gollum]

Indeed. I gotta get my old guitar out of hock first anyway.

In the mean time i'll follow that AA program.. then we can talk with the roadies and the tour managers ;)

[RRMike]

Head for Bulgaria. Once you hold it you will have a river border to the north and north-east so the Huns (and those who hold Moldova) will have to cross bridges to get at you. But beware a stab in the back from the Sicilians in Greece.

Now you tell me! :) I haven't been having too much trouble with the huns but the rest has gone to hell. That is good to know about Bulgaria though. I guess I don't remember that from my Hun games. I don't think I could support two armies anyway, with the Sic. in Greece, but still good to know.

Update: As soon as I got Egypt, feeling like I had the tiger by the tail, the Germans launch a crusade at Const. They are the big dog in Europe. Owning from Iberia to Northumbria to Austria. Of course, as soon as they do this it gives the Sicilians and horde pretext to drop their alliances with me so the Sicilians promptly sink a few of my boats and launch a crusade at Egypt, while the horde send two stacks into Rum from Armenia. I stoned the German crusade and they're sitting in Bulgaria. Beat the Horde badly in Rum, Arbalast attack on the general and then routed better army when their morale wavered.

I just hate this game right now though. My only ally, the Italians, had a civil war and I was allied with the crappy side so a bunch of the map went rebel. I have nobody left to trade with and no way to get anything out anyway through all the Sicilian ships. I guess I'm just gonna carry on with my original plan with the change that I'm going to now take Kazahr from the horde and make that my NE border. If I ever do get any trade going it will be nice to have.

[Gilrandir]

When I'm up against a faction with a strong naval power I usually try to concentrate my dispersed ships in a few sea zones and make several strong navies. Then I move them up against any stranded enemy's ships. The AI is normally not smart enough to do the same. But your foremost task I see in securing your maritime provinces from the Sicilian landing. So if I were you I would withdraw all my ships to Eastern Mediterranean and evict all enemy's ships from out of there. Once your maritime provinces are safe you can think offensive at sea.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

And even if you can't evict the enemy's fleets, get your fleets into your coastal provinces' sea zones and start doing the seaborne-invasion-prevention rumba.

Regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

[RRMike]

Yes, I have been consolidating my fleets and am now rolling back the Sicilian fleets. I've figured out a good trick to use to avoid the stupid moving blockade stuff that the AI pulls. It's probably something that all you guys already know but I didn't. My theory is:

Fleets move as fast as the slowest ship. So, when you want to give battle break your fleets apart and put all of your fastest boats together and attack the enemy fleet, which won't be able to withdraw unless they have a higher speed than your boats, and also attack with your big slow Wargalleys or whatever. If they are forced to give battle they must fight all the battles that turn. I'm able to crush on the Sicilian boats by using this method. My hunter/killer groups with a 2 Galley stack and a 3-4 wargalley/firegalley stack. They always move together.

Update on the campaign: Things are actually going pretty well. The AI is incredibly stupid and I forgot that when I was getting worried about this campaign. They don't build enough of the units that I have trouble with and bring tons of militia, spears and similar foot, that I can deal with fairly well. Heavy Cav, which I would struggle to deal with has been almost non-existant. The horde have some but they seem to have used the brunt of it up against the Ruskies, Huns and Poles. There are a couple/few when we have a big dust up but not the massive numbers that would kill my armies. I got tired of waiting and building up armies so I went on the offensive against the Horde. The Sicilian crusade against Egypt is sitting in Bulgaria along with a coupld stacks of Huns and Greece had 4 stacks of Sicilians so I didn't dare split my Const. army up by going offensive over there. The Sicilians just attacked and were beaten handily, yet again, suffering 2200 losses to my 900. Const. is safe for a while. It helps that the Sicilians and Hungarians are at war also. Which makes having the Sicilian crusade sitting in Hungarian Bulgaria all the more comical.

In the East I have from Moscow down to Kazhar. The Horde is still attacking into Poland and Hungary, which I'm all for. I'm going to try to keep pushing them West and let them whittle down some of my other enemies (the huns) in the process. Two birds with one stone and all... Down south, the Elmos have all of North Africa up to Egypt. They won't ally with me but haven't attacked so at least I have somebody to trade with when I manage to get my fleets extended again. I have auto-CF with the Germans after their crusade dispersed, the French have re-emerged and I still see English agents from time to time so they are out there somewhere. It is a slower conquest than I would say is normal for me but I'm still making progress. Once I finish off the Sicilian boats I think things will speed up noticeably.

PS. Getting to Switzerland looks like it's going to be neigh on impossible in the near term. I look upon it lovingly, and even sent an agent there to bring back stories of it's beauty, and halberds, but alas, other matters are pressing.