Support for Gun Control in US at its Lowest Level in More than 50 Years

[PanzerJaeger]

Someone said that we have the right to bear arms because the first US government wanted the civilians to be able to rebel in case the government becomes bad.

Yes, but who said 'gun control automatically means dictatorship'? No one did, apart from the straw man you seem to be arguing against.

By the way, as I alluded to earlier, using comparative circumstances of different countries as a basis for policy positions (in this case crime rates and gun control) involves a number of fallacies; so many, in fact, as to render such arguments virtually worthless. Heavy reliance on anecdote is even worse. What you need to provide are statistics from the same test group both before and after a gun ban has been implemented. Those stats still ignore a lot of headwind-type trends and other potentially misleading information, but are at least somewhat more demonstrative.

Here are some examples of the kind of information that, while not perfect, is a bit more useful.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Shaka_Khan]

I live in NYC for one, in the Bronx which im almost certain was likely worse than where you lived.

You're the one who's making an assumption.

I have lived in 5 different states throughout the US. I have been to Seoul, Singapore, and Tokyo (doesnt count was at the airport). Seoul's safety is more a product of the south korean culture than anything else, tokyo has some of the worst organized crime in the world and singapore is one of the strictest countries on earth. Oh and I spent quite a few of my teenage years 30 minutes away from DC.

If you lived in those countries then why did you posted these earlier?

name one country with no gun crimes or murder.

yeah and britains violent crime rate is 2.5 times higher than the US' and the murder rate has been climbing since 1997 when the total handgun ban was enacted. American murder rates are the lowest in 20 years. i would hope a country which bans guns would have lower gun murders what a completely worthless statistic and point to demonstrate.

This sounds like someone who never left your neighborhood. I'll repeat what I said to MRD: I find it sad that you need to carry a gun to feel safe. I want you to experience the feeling of being safe enough not to carry a gun everywhere you go. I like how I can trust any stranger even when that stranger knows that I don't have a gun. There are many places out there where you could experience this even in many parts of the US. I have experienced many of these places and I'm experiencing one right now. Surprise surprise, I never carried a gun everywhere I went even in the dangerous areas of certain US cites.

also do you realize how much easier it is to control guns in places like japan, singapore, and the uk.......... simply because of geography alone.

I did mention that it would be hard to ban guns in the US because of geography and the US is already saturated with guns. But I believe it's possible. There are countries like Cambodia that banned guns when a lot of the Cambodians owned these. A lot of the civilians in China (which is larger and more populous than the States) don't own guns. I felt pretty safe there.

Yes, there are places we are not allowed to carry guns, like federal property and schools, and no, the "majority" of gun crimes in the US do not happen in places where you cannot carry a gun.

I mentioned schools because I saw some gun crime in US schools on the news. Even before Columbine, some schools had metal detectors at the entrance to ban guns because gun crimes were happening. Gun crime in a school is unheard of in places like the UK, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, etc.
I mentioned that a normal summer camp in the US bans guns because someone in this forum mentioned the need for everyone to own guns after that tragedy in Norway happened. I also saw someone claim that this wouldn't happen in the US because of the right to bear arms.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, but who said 'gun control automatically means dictatorship'? No one did, apart from the straw man you seem to be arguing against.

By the way, as I alluded to earlier, using comparative circumstances of different countries as a basis for policy positions (in this case crime rates and gun control) involves a number of fallacies; so many, in fact, as to render such arguments virtually worthless. Heavy reliance on anecdote is even worse. What you need to provide are statistics from the same test group both before and after a gun ban has been implemented. Those stats still ignore a lot of headwind-type trends and other potentially misleading information, but are at least somewhat more demonstrative.

Here are some examples of the kind of information that, while not perfect, is a bit more useful.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Judging from those graphs, banning guns had no ill effect on the level of crime.

[Shaka_Khan]

Yes, but who said 'gun control automatically means dictatorship'? No one did, apart from the straw man you seem to be arguing against.

Someone mentioned the Constitution having the right to bear arms so that the people can rebel against a dictatorship.

By the way, as I alluded to earlier, using comparative circumstances of different countries as a basis for policy positions (in this case crime rates and gun control) involves a number of fallacies; so many, in fact, as to render such arguments virtually worthless. Heavy reliance on anecdote is even worse. What you need to provide are statistics from the same test group both before and after a gun ban has been implemented. Those stats still ignore a lot of headwind-type trends and other potentially misleading information, but are at least somewhat more demonstrative.

Here are some examples of the kind of information that, while not perfect, is a bit more useful.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You're only showing the US and the UK. The US still has guns outside those cities, which makes it difficult to ban guns in those cities. And the UK still has a lot less gun crime than in the US.

I'm saying what I experienced in the US and my different experience in other countries that clearly has zero gun worries.

I'm not picking a side just to annoy you. I was angry that a person I knew when I was a kid was shot. I was angry when I saw a girl run into the lobby and cry that her boyfriend was shot. (Both of these happened many years ago). It's ridiculous and a humiliation that innocent people go through this. In both of these cases, the crime wouldn't have happened if guns were harder for the criminals to obtain. Having been to safer areas, I don't think it's normal if there is a situation that makes the general population need to own guns. That situation just shows how dangerous a country is because of guns.

[Major Robert Dump]

Offering anectodotal evidence of where you have been in the US, even bad neighborhoods, and felt safe w/o a gun has no bearing on the argument at hand, though. Get back to me when you have ventured into East St Louis or the rural meth belt. I might also point out that the only time I have been the victim of a potential deadly violent crime happened to be the one time I was unarmed because the place I was coming from did not allow personal firearms. Kind of funny, when you think about it.

I agree that it's sad I need a gun to feel safe. That is not my fault. It's also not going to change anytime soon. I don't make the world, I just live in it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Someone mentioned the Constitution having the right to bear arms so that the people can rebel against a dictatorship.

Yes, that does not equate to 'gun control means dictatorship'. The idea is not that taking away guns automatically leads to dictatorship (as your straw man would suggest), but that if at some point in the future the government does become authoritarian, the citizenry will have no means to resist.

You're only showing the US and the UK. The US still has guns outside those cities, which makes it difficult to ban guns in those cities. And the UK still has a lot less gun crime than in the US.

That's the point. The US and UK have historically had different violent crime rates long before gun bans came into existence, thus comparisons aren't worth much. Claims that x country has 'zero' gun worries are not evidence of the success or failure of gun control efforts. Remember, correlation does not imply causation. If you're willing to look beyond such poorly thought out comparisons and really dig into the data, you'll be surprised at how little an impact gun control efforts seem to have had on generalized crime trends of various places around the world.

I'm saying what I experienced in the US and my different experience in other countries that clearly has zero gun worries.

I'm not picking a side just to annoy you. I was angry that a person I knew when I was a kid was shot. I was angry when I saw a girl run into the lobby and cry that her boyfriend was shot. (Both of these happened many years ago). It's ridiculous and a humiliation that innocent people go through this. In both of these cases, the crime wouldn't have happened if guns were harder for the criminals to obtain. Having been to safer areas, I don't think it's normal if there is a situation that makes the general population need to own guns. That situation just shows how dangerous a country is because of guns.

Anecdote is just as worthless as false comparisons. You know, I feel really safe in the US and never feel the need to carry a gun for personal protection. That and a dollar will buy me something off the dollar menu at McDonalds.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'm not picking a side just to annoy you. I was angry that a person I knew when I was a kid was shot. I was angry when I saw a girl run into the lobby and cry that her boyfriend was shot. (Both of these happened many years ago). It's ridiculous and a humiliation that innocent people go through this. In both of these cases, the crime wouldn't have happened if guns were harder for the criminals to obtain. Having been to safer areas, I don't think it's normal if there is a situation that makes the general population need to own guns. That situation just shows how dangerous a country is because of guns.

I heard a story on the radio once about a woman whose ex-husband had been in the KKK. She got introduced to everyone in the local organization. After they broke up she volunteered for the police, wearing a wire to events and gatherings and such. Eventually they got caught on and she started getting threatening phone calls "we're going to kill your dogs, we're going to kill you"...when they showed up at her house one night with crowbars or something she met them on the porch with a shotgun and they scrammed.