Trojan War Happened In England.

[Montmorency]

Exactly, the Spartans were not Spartans. They were descended from the Dorians, Peloponnesians, and migrants. So Homer was exaggerating, if there was a shred of truth to his story.

Yes, which tends to refute the point to which I replied.

And some of the narratives in the Iliad are really far-fetched. When Achilles was about to fight Hector, Hector ran away. Achilles went after him, and circled Troy 7 times. That's quite alot of running. But there's also the story of Pheidippides, who ran from Athens to Sparta in a single day.

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What does this have to do with a "English" Trojan War? You're going off on tangents. Anyway, no one disputes that ancient epics are exaggerated in nature.

[spankythehippo]

Yes, which tends to refute the point to which I replied.



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What does this have to do with a "English" Trojan War? You're going off on tangents. Anyway, no one disputes that ancient epics are exaggerated in nature.

It doesn't have anything to do with the English Trojan War, it's just some examples of some of Homer's tales.


The evidence that Wilkens is providing is predominantly the landscape and the naming of places in England. Caer Troia is the Celtic city of Troy.

Taken from the website in my first post:

The Achaeans built 1186 ships for their attack on Troy, they could have travelled the short distance overland far quicker and cheaper if Troy really had been in the Greek and Turkish Mediterranean setting.
The Turkish setting had no nearby bay or port large enough to accommodate anything near the size of Achaean fleet.
The Turkish setting plain is not large enough to accommodate the invading army of about 100,000 men and the long pursuits in horse-drawn chariots.
No bronze weapons have been found at the Turkish Troy site.
The Greek (Mycenaean) civilisation died out at the beginning of the Trojan War, so where not in a position to launching or sustain a large long term war.
Agamemnon took a full month to sail from his kingdom Argos to Ithaca, we know the trip takes less than 24 hours in the Mediterranean setting.
Odysseus claimed to have got home by travelling as a passenger on a ship going from Crete to Sidon (present day Saïda in Lebanon), but that is the opposite direction he needed to go in the Mediterranean setting.
The philosophy of Homer is very different from the beliefs of the Greeks who thought there were two opposite elements such as good and evil, Homer's writings reveal three such forces which are known Celtic notions, suggesting Homer was a Celt.



Please note, that I am taking neither side in this historical debate. Just bringing forward evidence from both sides.

[CountArach]

In my opinion and from the reading I have done, the Trojan war never actually occurred and the poems are just a reflection of a mytho-historical narrative. To attempt to derive any modernist version of history from poems that changed over centuries of word-of-mouth compilation within a society that we know very little about would be absolutely impossible.

Also Homer never existed.

[spankythehippo]

In my opinion and from the reading I have done, the Trojan war never actually occurred and the poems are just a reflection of a mytho-historical narrative. To attempt to derive any modernist version of history from poems that changed over centuries of word-of-mouth compilation within a society that we know very little about would be absolutely impossible.

Also Homer never existed.

To support this statement, Homer (if he lived) was alive around 300 years after the event in question. So this could possibly be the equivalent of making grandpa's stupid stories into "facts".


When you say "Homer never existed", do you mean that he isn't who everyone says he is?

[CountArach]

When you say "Homer never existed", do you mean that he isn't who everyone says he is?

I mean what I said. It is a very rare Homeric scholar who believes that Homer ever existed. The poems were being composed by word-of-mouth for centuries on end in all parts of the Hellenic world, and many different versions abounded, with no single 'canon' version. If my memory does not fail me, what we have was put together by the Athenians who wanted a uniform version that could be sung at the Olympic games. If you want evidence for this look at the catalogue of ships and note that Athens is mentioned, despite the fact that it would have been nothing at the alleged point of the war.

[spankythehippo]

I mean what I said. It is a very rare Homeric scholar who believes that Homer ever existed. The poems were being composed by word-of-mouth for centuries on end in all parts of the Hellenic world, and many different versions abounded, with no single 'canon' version. If my memory does not fail me, what we have was put together by the Athenians who wanted a uniform version that could be sung at the Olympic games. If you want evidence for this look at the catalogue of ships and note that Athens is mentioned, despite the fact that it would have been nothing at the alleged point of the war.

Fabled scholars are very common in ancient times. Lycurgus is one of them. There happens to be very little evidence of his existence, yet there are stone busts of him, like there are of Homer.

[CountArach]

Fabled scholars are very common in ancient times. Lycurgus is one of them. There happens to be very little evidence of his existence, yet there are stone busts of him, like there are of Homer.

Indeed, but that is still not evidence for his existence. Every city needs to have a founder, just as every poem has to have a poet and if no historical one exists then myth-making will suffice.