Elite Dacian skirmishers... overpriced???

[Nightmare]

To my knowledge, no one has gone through with it, but it is very easy to do yourself. Unfortunately, it's also very tedious, as you have to go through each and every unit. Anyway, I can give you the instructions here. Okay. First off, make a backup of the single player export_descr_unit (that's what edu stands for) file. You will find it in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\sp game edu backup". This is both so you can revert back to regular EB if you change your mind, and so that you can get the correct ownership lines later. Also make a backup the descr_projectiles_new file, which you will find at "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\data" for the first reason.

Then go and download the MP edu here. Unfortunately, you don't seem to get the projectiles file there, so I uploaded it myself here. Put the edu in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\sp game edu backup", and the descr_projectiles_new in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\data".

Fantastic, thanks! I'll do the downloads now.

Just to make 100% sure this does what I want, I'll describe what I'm after because there might be a little bit of confusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your MP mod equalizes factions with each other, right? So that Rome would be equivalent to Saba, for example, and you could put the two head to head MP and no one is at a disadvantage. If so, I totally understand the need for that for MP. For SP, I'm not after that change, although if your mod enacts that change, it's fine (I'm neutral on it). The change I want is as follows.

My prime directive in this game, and pretty much any game, is that I'm not punished for teching up. In fact, I'm rewarded for it. Cost-effectiveness of units should INCREASE as I tech, not DECREASE as is currently the case.

Let's take a pike phalanx as an example. You have the lowly levy pikes, then the medium pikes, then the elite pikes. The medium pikes should be more cost-effective than the levy pikes, and the elite pikes should be more cost effective than the medium pikes. If it doesn't work this way, then I am being punished for teching up, and in fact there is no reason to tech up because cost effectiveness is better where I am at levy.

The same sort of rule applies if there is an odd unit up in the tech tree not part of a "line" (levy pike, medium pike, elite pike), it's just harder to visualize because you don't have other units beneath it to compare it to. For example, assume that chariots pop-in at tech level 3. Okay, we can't see where they are at tech level 1 or 2, because they don't exist there. But when they come in at tech 3 they should be "reasonably" cost effective at what they do, or provide some useful ability that wasn't available before, otherwise there is no reason to tech to them or use them.

At any rate, THAT'S what I want. Does your MP mod do that? If it just equalizes between factions, that's fine, but I don't need that. If it equalizes between factions (or doesn't), AND it does what I just described, THAT'S what I want and I'll be downloading it and modding.

Just off hand, assuming it does what I want, how did you guys come up with the recruitment cost numbers?

Again, thanks!

[Nightmare]

It may be too late, but I still want to share my take on this.

You are not too late my, my friend. By all means, chime in.

You can never, ever command more than 20 units at the same time. So, yes, although some elite units are so expensive that you could instead recruit several decent ones, they have a use, because they will improve the performance of your 20 of choice. If you don't need elite, that's fine, but you'd be even better of with them.

As far as not commanding more than 20 units at a time, I understand the argument, but I don't find it compelling. If I just had one stack I could build and deploy in a game, and only one stack, then I'd find the argument far more persuasive. I'd be dead if that one stack dies, so it might very well pay off to spend whatever I could to put the best units possible (not in terms of cost-effectiveness, but in terms of stats) in that stack. As it stands, I can have as many stacks as I can afford in a game, certain limits applying of course. So I should stock each stack with the most cost-effective units I can, not with the most powerful stat-wise. Yes, my first el-cheapo stack might die to your all-elite stack, and the second one too. But I have a third right behind that (and a fourth, and a fifth).

The pricetag doesn't mean you are not supposed to recruit them at all. It means you are not supposed to as long as you can't afford them, but once you can, you are.

Again, I buy this argument more if I'm just allowed to have one stack. But under the current circumstances, even if I can afford elites, I should just recruit nothing but the lower-end stuff.

There isn't a single elite unit that's cost effective compared to cheaper ones. But that's what improved economy is for.

Agree about the elites, which is why I came here and posted. But the improved economy is for building more stacks of the cheaper stuff, not for building elites.

I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around why you are so adamant about not being able to recruit elite units, even though you have the money for it.

If you can give me mathematics or logic as to why I should recruit the elites when I have the money for it, I'll change my position and do just that. So far, nobody has been able to do that. So far, the mathematics and logic say "stay with the cheap stuff." You said yourself above that "there isn't a single elite unit that's cost effective compared to cheaper ones." That says it all right there, and is my argument in a nutshell. It means if you build elites, you aren't being cost-effective, and you aren't optimizing or maximizing your play.

What's the point of playing a strategy game if you aren't maximizing or optimizing your play? You are losing if you aren't doing that! Of course, you aren't ever "losing" to the AI, but forget about that. Play against yourself, mentally, not against the dumb AI. Play against a perfect game you could play.

Pretend for a minute that you are playing chess instead of EB. You have calculated the best chess move you could possibly make. All other moves are inferior to this one. Do you play the best move, or an inferior one? Well, with EB as it is currently balanced, the best move is almost always "build cheap stuff, don't tech up." So why would I play another move?

Of course, if you are playing chess against a dumb AI, you won't be punished for playing an inferior move. But chess guys don't ever play against the dumb AI, even if they actually are. In their minds, they play against the most perfect game they could play. If they play an inferior move, but still win the game, they know another chess guy standing over their shoulder reviewing the game would say "you could have played such-and-such and come out better."

It just occurred to me that some of this back-and-forth might be between role playing people and strategy game people, because this game seems to have both types, I guess. I treat the game as a strategy game, not as a chance to role play or whatever. I can see the value of building elites if I'm role playing, because in that case I could care less about playing the best game, rationally and logically, that I could play. But I'm not a role playing guy, I'm a strategy guy.

The campaign economy is part of the balancing (that's a reason why balancing for multiplayer is different: there is no campaign and no economy). What is the money for if not for spending it?

For me, as a strategy guy and not a role playing guy, the money is in fact for more stacks of cheap, cost-effective stuff. It's easy to calculate that as the best move. The problem is, it's also not challenging or fulfilling from a strategy perspective - you simply don't tech up, and you continue to mash the "build levy spear" button over and over again. That's why it makes sense to rebalance the units so you actually have to tech up and use higher grade units to win the game.

Thanks for your perspective. If I have something wrong here, or missed something in your logic, by all means tell me where I'm wrong.

[The Celtic Viking]

Before I say anything else I think I should make it clear that it is not, in fact, my mod. All praise belongs to Gamegeek2 for making it.

To your first question though, regarding if all factions have been equaled out, that is a negative. Saba are still vastly inferior to Rome, as you bring out that example. There are a couple of factions that have been made more playable though, such as Sweboz, but the "food chain" is still there.

In answer to your second question, regarding better units being more cost-effective than inferior units, that's not quite true. One of the goals of the modding has been to make elites more cost-effective though, and you will definitely see that. If you're wondering if it's worth it, you can just download the edu and look it up and decide for yourself first. I think that by your criterion this EDU is a clear improvement over the regular one, though still not perfect. (Incidentally, I agree, but from my own criterions. )

As for how the cost is decided, I don't know exactly. There's a documentary that was included with all previous uploads of the EDU (but also was lost together with the projectiles file, apparently), but it's not very specific. From what I understand, basically each unit is designated in a certain tier (which also determines how many men will be in the unit) which gives it a base cost. After that things like training, equipment and factional bonuses and penalties etc. are applied before the final cost is arrived at. Besides Gamegeek2 himself Kival's the guy who understands it the best, so you should hope either of them drop in I guess.

[bobbin]

It wasn't the best option available. In fact, turning what should be great units into utterly crappy units by making them so cost-ineffective is inexcusable. INEXCUSABLE.

If they wanted to force players not to build too many of these elites (perhaps a dubious proposition in itself, but I'm not here to debate that), the best options would have been some combination of 1) taking multiple turns to recruit the units, 2) severely restricting the recruiting area for the units, or 3) severely shrinking the unit sizes of the units. See, that took me all of 10 seconds, and I came up with 3 alternatives that are better than what they chose to do - make the units so grotesquely expensive that they SUCK. Make no mistake, a unit will always suck if it costs too much, irrespective of whatever fantastic stats it may have.

Not a dubious proposition if you intend to follow a little thing called reality.
As for you alternatives,
1) Doesn't restrict the numbers of elite units, allows you to support unrealistically large numbers of elite units.
2) We already do that, a lot. How did you not notice?
3) Tiny unit sizes have a major negative impact on a units performance in battle, it makes them way too susceptible to cavalry charges and missiles.

So surprise surprise, the only option that is a hard limit on unit numbers is cost (you can't build them if you have no money).

Maybe it's fun for you, but it's not fun for me because I simply am not allowed to build the cool units, and thus I have to play the entire game with cost-effective levy spears.

The only person not allowing you to recruit these units is yourself, stop acting like it is being imposed on you.

The designers of this mod had many skills and talents - many. They had imagination, they had historical knowledge, they had map-making skills and modeling skills, even musical skills. One thing they severely lacked was skill with balancing and numbers.

Listen, the whole point of this mod it to follow history as closely as possible, and you may have noticed that history is full of inequality. If you want a finely balanced game go play Starcraft and stop posting insults about people who know a hell of a lot more about the aim of this mod and how to accomplish it than you do.

[athanaric]

One thing they severely lacked was skill with balancing and numbers.

Actually one of the things I like best about EB is its finely tuned stat system and general unit balancing. This coming from someone who's spent quite a lot of time playing EB campaigns. I suggest you get used to the various factions in this game a bit, maybe that'll change your view of things eventually.

[Stark]

Couldn't someone just ban him?

Please?

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Couldn't someone just ban him?

Please?

I for one believe that people have right for differing opinions eventhough this topic is one that stirs strong opinions.

Afterall this is supposed to be forum where different views are allowed ain't it?

On the topic

I think Nightmare has three choices:

1. Mod the units more to his liking
2. Trying to take the historical "ineffective" approach to EB
3. Move to playing games/mods that has teching/blinging makes units better cost-effective approach

You have to remember that RTW engine can't limit recruitment of those cheaper units either, if the MTW2 recruitment system were in place you wouldn't be able to field (for example as getai controlling dacia/thracia) those 6-7 fullstacks of cheaper troops so you would be forced to use units that give at least some edge over the foes levy/semi-professionals.

Human history even in case of warfare is hardly about what's sensible or cost effective.

[Blxz]

Listen, the whole point of this mod it to follow history as closely as possible, and you may have noticed that history is full of inequality. If you want a finely balanced game go play Starcraft and stop posting insults about people who know a hell of a lot more about the aim of this mod and how to accomplish it than you do.

I said something similar and he blocked me. He is deeply convinced he is right and very little seems to sway him. I don't know why he plays a mod that aims to be as historically accurate as possible within the confines of the engine.

Also Athanaric, I have to agree with you. I've found EB to be a very very well balanced game. Each faction is not (as bobbin put it) 'starcraft balanced' but they each have strengths and weaknesses. Overcoming each weakness is the fun of the game.

I understand his point of view about balancing though, but it doesn't make much sense if you consider what the mod is about or what it represents or aims to achieve.

[Nightmare]

Not a dubious proposition if you intend to follow a little thing called reality.

If the intention was to follow reality, this wouldn't be a game, because games allow choices and the opportunity to change reality. This would just be a script running, showing what happened in history, like a movie playing out on the game engine, with no input from the user other than "play movie."

1) Doesn't restrict the numbers of elite units, allows you to support unrealistically large numbers of elite units.

You don't think that making a spartan hoplite take 5 turns to recruit would tend to somewhat restrict how many end up being on the field? Okay, what about 10 turns? What about 20 turns?

Either way, I have news for you. With the current system, I can still field "unrealistically large" numbers of elite units. I've done it - full stacks of druids with Casse. So your system doesn't even stop what you want stopped, it simply makes it impossible to field elites and play the game rationally at the same time. At least with some stat changes, you could introduce more rationality for the people who care about that.

Look, either way, if the choice is between the player choosing of his own accord to recruit unrealistically large numbers of elite units, or making unit prices so ridiculous that you have to suspend rationalism - in a strategy game no less - in order to field certain units, why is it so outrageous to some people to propose making certain prices cheaper and then let the player play his game? If he then chooses to play "unrealistically" or "ahistorically," that's HIS problem, not yours, right? YOU don't have to make that choice.

I mean, if you are against the proposition - fine, more power to you. But why be OFFENDED at such a proposition?

2) We already do that, a lot. How did you not notice?

I did notice. But perhaps you don't do it enough. As an alternative to jacking up the price of certain units so much that you would only build them for the lolz (imagine - a spartan hoplite degenerated to the point where someone says "I built one just for the lolz" - degrading!), I am suggesting that perhaps you can do it even more.

3) Tiny unit sizes have a major negative impact on a units performance in battle, it makes them way too susceptible to cavalry charges and missiles.

I agree it has a downside that must be weighed against everything else. It's still an alternative to doing what you are doing, which has its own downsides.

Personally, I think alternative 1 has the most potential. If we must be history nazis and force the player to "play historically," this could probably be done by making elite units take multiple turns to recruit.

The only person not allowing you to recruit these units is yourself, stop acting like it is being imposed on you.

If I am to play the game irrationally, no, it's not being imposed on me. If I am to play the game rationally, yes, it is being imposed on me. I don't care to play strategy games irrationally.

Listen, the whole point of this mod it to follow history as closely as possible...

Stop kidding yourself. Again, if the real point of the mod is to do what you said, it wouldn't be a game where you could even partipate. It would simply be a script running showing you all the historical events that occurred all the way until Rome took everything - like a movie being played out on the game engine. But the minute you let the player start making choices (apparently the game allows that), you are changing history, therefore you aren't "following history as closely as possible."

Apparently it's supposed to be a game foremost and primarily, and something that has a lot of historical flavor, historical basis, and historical accuracy secondarily. And I support that, because it's the only thing that makes sense as a game. If I want to watch a movie, I'll watch a movie. If I want to play a game, I'll play a game.

If you want a finely balanced game go play Starcraft and stop posting insults about people who know a hell of a lot more about the aim of this mod and how to accomplish it than you do.

Why the personal attacks and insults? Do you always insult people you disagree with? Have I insulted you?

How about I play whatever I want to play, and post whatever I want to post? Furthermore, since I want this thread to remain active and not shut down just because some people can't have a polite conversation, why don't I report you, and then put you on my ignore list?

[Nightmare]

@Bobbin, it says you are a mod or admin, so I can't ignore you? Now THAT's funny!

[Kival]

If you want to use the EB MP EDU by gamegeek in Multiplayer I'd advise you to use WinMerge. This way it's much easier and inflicted with much less errors to copy the changes from MP into SP. I'd not advise to use the MP stats 1 to 1 in SP but that's up to you. Anyway it's so much work I gave up my own trial to mod the SP EDU into my personal liking. You should bring some time and frustration tolerance as it's not the most interesting thing to do in the world

[Intranetusa]

You can't really compare them with Triarii since the Triarii (especially the early Triarii hoplties) are greatly under-priced elite infantry. In earlier EB versions, early Triarii used to be around 2200-2300 (even then it was underpriced) in cost since their stats are basically elite hoplites. The later Triarii are under-priced elite spearmen.

[seleucid empire]

Either way, I have news for you. With the current system, I can still field "unrealistically large" numbers of elite units. I've done it - full stacks of druids with Casse. So your system doesn't even stop what you want stopped, it simply makes it impossible to field elites and play the game rationally at the same time. At least with some stat changes, you could introduce more rationality for the people who care about that.

first he says im not building any elite units cause the game makes them impossible to recruits then he admits to making fullstacks of druids

[seleucid empire]

I did notice. But perhaps you don't do it enough. As an alternative to jacking up the price of certain units so much that you would only build them for the lolz (imagine - a spartan hoplite degenerated to the point where someone says "I built one just for the lolz" - degrading!), I am suggesting that perhaps you can do it even more.

Spartans are already restricted to one province, what more do you want?

[Nightmare]

If you want to use the EB MP EDU by gamegeek in Multiplayer I'd advise you to use WinMerge. This way it's much easier and inflicted with much less errors to copy the changes from MP into SP. I'd not advise to use the MP stats 1 to 1 in SP but that's up to you. Anyway it's so much work I gave up my own trial to mod the SP EDU into my personal liking. You should bring some time and frustration tolerance as it's not the most interesting thing to do in the world

I was actually writing a program just now to make all the changes for me so I wouldn't have to do it manually. I'd say the program is half-finished at this point, but since I have some things to do now I don't expect to finish it until tomorrow. However if there is some other program that can do this for me (WinMerge or whatever) please point me to it by all means!

By the way, could you please elaborate on what you mean by not using MP stats 1 to 1 in SP?

Thanks!

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

For me, playing on huge unit size helps encourage use of the elite units. Two levy units might be more efficient and cost effective than one elite, but when recruiting one unit of spearmen reduces my population by 240, I can't afford to deplete my town populations by recruiting a great many levies - using elites gets me 'more bang per head of population being recruited'.

[athanaric]

Either way, I have news for you. With the current system, I can still field "unrealistically large" numbers of elite units. I've done it - full stacks of druids with Casse.

But why on earth would you do that? They're awfully slow and have a small unit size. Not the most versatile unit either.

Why the personal attacks and insults? Do you always insult people you disagree with? Have I insulted you?

No, actually I believe you're the first person on this board to make bobbin mad. I'd give you +rep for that but I'm afraid that only works on TWC.

[Blxz]

Furthermore, since I want this thread to remain active and not shut down just because some people can't have a polite conversation, why don't I report you, and then put you on my ignore list?

---------------------------------------------

@Bobbin, it says you are a mod or admin, so I can't ignore you? Now THAT's funny!

Can i just say that I called it =) He blocks everyone that doesn't seem to agree with him. Really weird guy.

I mean, if you are against the proposition - fine, more power to you. But why be OFFENDED at such a proposition?

Since I am blocked can someone tell him that the reason people become offended by his 'suggestions' (demands) is because he is acting like an arse. These big wordy monologues where he insults pretty much everyone he can find are the epitome of hypocrisy. He then goes on and blocks people who do't agree with him.

I must admit it is interesting forum play, but the popcorn is running out and he is still talking.

[seleucid empire]

Can i just say that I called it =) He blocks everyone that doesn't seem to agree with him. Really weird guy.

haha i think i said this first in another of his posts

[seleucid empire]

also since im also blocked someone point out to him that he says he refuses to buy elites and then makes an army of them

[Blxz]

double post

Hey man, not meaning to step on toes but its generally considered bad forum etiquette to post twice in a row. You have done this quite a few times, what you can do is just use the edit button that is on the bottom right of your post and then you can add in some more stuff. Obviously editing once other replies have been posted below yours is also bad etiquette, but...... you get the picture =)

[seleucid empire]

oh i had no idea that was bad etiquette, sorry ill try to keep that in mind and say all i need to say in one. im new to the forum after all :)

[Nightmare]

But why on earth would you do that? They're awfully slow and have a small unit size. Not the most versatile unit either.

You really want to know why I would do it? I had already won the game, and did it for the lolz, because there really isn't any other reason to make elites except for the lolz.

Or perhaps you wanted to know why druids and not some other unit? I won the game so fast that, at the time, it was the best unit I could produce. People talked about some uber-elites available after reforms, but I never got anything like that.

No, actually I believe you're the first person on this board to make bobbin mad.

I didn't make anyone mad. If people were made mad, they did it to themselves. I have been polite to all, and have treated all with respect UNTIL someone personally attacked me or insulted me first. That's simply a matter of record.

Okay, normally I wouldn't give in to an armada of trolls, but it's getting boring scrolling through messages that are hidden from people on my ignore list, plus it just seems more and more trolls keep coming out of the woodwork. I think I've done all I can do with this thread, and have gotten all I can from it in terms of modding information. To whoever else is interested, I think we can take the rest of the discussion offline to private messages where the trolls aren't privy to what's said and can't keep filling up the message board with insults.

I hope Celtic Viking and others don't mind if I send a private message if I need to consult on these mods. Also, once I have finished modding the files, you guys (Celtic Viking, CA Putts, whoever) are welcome to it. You can either keep it in an archive, use it yourself, or make a mod out of it and distribute it if you think others are interested.

Peace out.

[Lazy O]

But you really need to stop thinking that EB is anything like Starcraft and that all factions will be balanced and a dragoon will indefinitely be better than a zealot, history did not exactly work like that. Thing is, you might have the elitest units in the game, but I would not give a damn, since I have 5 cataphracts and 15 other Horse Archers which are 10x cheaper and basically invincible :D .

[XSamatan]

Nightmare, you need to calm down.

This forum is a place to discuss EB and things around the mod in a polite manner, adding half the members to your personal blocking list because you don't agree or listen to their opinions and comments is very unpolite and the team won't tolerate such behavior.

You made some qualified posts here, some thoughts are worth the reading but the whole direction of your threads is not what we want to see here.
Therefore I will personally check any new posts from your side until you learned how to behave in our forums, if you can't behave you have to leave.

To give you a guideline what we generally tolerate and what not:
- insulting other members, aggressive posts and the absence of understanding that other opinions exist is negative
- threads about the valence of units, factions or strategies are well seen by the team, in most of the times other members learn new things, but everyone has to accept other opinions and the discussion has to be polite
- I doubt you had read the forum rules before starting your arguments here, so please read it prior to posting here again

Regards,
XSamatan

[KyodaiSteeleye]

I think posters need to bear in mind that putting down strongly worded opinions tends to wind people up with differing views, creating an argument rather than a discussion. Nightmare has every right to have views on certain things and to express them here. Everyone else has the right to disagree with him - which they do :)

[Nightmare]

Nightmare, you need to calm down.

XSamatan, I'm not wound up. In fact, I left this thread until you sent a message to my inbox telling me to come back. I see that you want to pick a fight, and since you look like a mod, admin, or some other sort, it seems you have the power to do just that :-(

This forum is a place to discuss EB and things around the mod in a polite manner, adding half the members to your personal blocking list because you don't agree or listen to their opinions and comments is very unpolite and the team won't tolerate such behavior.

XSamatan, whoever said I added anyone to a list because I didn't agree or listen to their comments? Do you even know what you are talking about? While I believe it is perfectly within my rights to add anyone to a blocking list for whatever reason I want, I have only added anyone because they have personally attacked or insulted me, period, paragraph, end of story. This is a matter of record and it is documented.

Now, you might not be interested in any documentation, or fairness. In fact, I'm sure you aren't. But it's there. Anytime you've seen someone added to my list, you will also see that they personally attacked me or insulted me or were rude right there in the very thread where I add them to the blocking list. There have been plenty of people to disagree with me on this forum on whatever topic. But they have done so in a polite and cordial manner, and they have not been added to any lists, nor will they be.

Ironically, you call me out for adding people to a blocking list (something perfectly within my rights), but I have been doing this SO AS TO ELIMINATE PROBLEMS AND POTENTIAL PROBLEMS on the forum, because once all the people who insult and personally attack are on my list, they can no longer be seen by me, and I can no longer respond to them, therefore the problems should be gone. That was my thinking, anyway. And yet you call me out on it.

Whoever you are, it's amazing how biased and blind you are. You can read this entire thread and see that I never personally attacked or insulted anyone. Others did it to me first, then I responded and put them on my blocking list. You could have attacked the troublemakers and called them out. But who did you attack and call out, publicly to boot? Me. Boy, you have some nerve, I have to say that.

This entire thread is full of the background chatter of people who I put on my blocking list previously, making insults and snide comments amonst each other as the thread progressed. All of it is pretty nasty stuff. Yet I haven't said a word to any of them or addressed any of it. If you wanted to call someone out for being a troublemaker, you could and should have called any of them out. Did you? No, you called me out. For nothing. Or, rather, for ignoring the troublemakers and their attacks on me. That's truly amazing.

Therefore I will personally check any new posts from your side until you learned how to behave in our forums, if you can't behave you have to leave.

Check away buddy, each and every post. I'm not going anywhere. Go ahead and ban me if you want, but I'm not going anywhere on my own, because I have done absolutely nothing wrong. Again, some nerve and gall. Utterly amazing.

insulting other members, aggressive posts and the absence of understanding that other opinions exist is negative

1) I have not insulted anyone, at least not until they insulted me first. You want to level an accusation, buddy? SHOW ME THE POST where I insulted someone who didn't insult me first.

2) I don't know what an "aggressive post" is, unless it's the one I'm reading from you.

3) I kindly regard all opinions except the opinions of troublemakers on my ignore list who have a history of personal attacks and insults. I will continue to ignore those people because they don't post opinions, they post attacks and insults. This is a matter of record.

threads about the valence of units, factions or strategies are well seen by the team, in most of the times other members learn new things, but everyone has to accept other opinions and the discussion has to be polite

Discussion on my end is always polite until someone personally attacks or insults me. If you want to level an accusation, show me where I was impolite to someone who wasn't impolite to me first.

I doubt you had read the forum rules before starting your arguments here, so please read it prior to posting here again

I didn't need to read them, then or now. You see, I'm always a pleasant guy unless provoked or attacked. That's irrespective of anyone's rules.

Regards,
XSamatan

Now you can go ahead and delete my post, delete the thread so no one can see the real record here, and ban me.

Kindest regards,
Nightmare

[Stark]

Don't you find it weird that absolutely no one agrees with you? You even angered EB team members (first time I ever saw that).

[Ludens]

To whoever else is interested, I think we can take the rest of the discussion offline to private messages (...).

That's probably best. Since this thread is getting more about you and less about EB, I am going to close it.

And again: if you feel I or another staff member has treated you unfairly, you can take it to the forum admins. If you want to leave, just leave.

Thread closed