The Counter-Jihad goes full fascist - like we didn't know that before.

**spankythehippo** · 02-22-2012, 07:42

Whoa, double post.

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Well, those Greeks deserve everything they get, right? They're corrupt, and they elect corrupt politicians, so maybe they're stupid too?

Blaming an entire demographic for the actions of corrupt politicians? Now you're just attacking a straw man. Of course, my words mean nothing, since I don't live in EU.

But I find this informal fallacy rather distasteful.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 02-22-2012, 12:16

Originally Posted by spankythehippo

Whoa, double post.

Blaming an entire demographic for the actions of corrupt politicians? Now you're just attacking a straw man. Of course, my words mean nothing, since I don't live in EU.

But I find this informal fallacy rather distasteful.

I find the penury the Greek people are being driven into more than distasteful, and the restrictions being placed upon them are EXPLICITELY stated to be to make sure they keep up their end of the deal.

As I said - if its about the politicians, get rid of them, don't crash the whole ******** economy, it's pointless.

Also take a look at this:

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No one forced anyone into anything. We're dealing with countries here, who are not supposed to walk into scams.

When I was 18 I was offered a Platinum credit card with a limit of £25k. I had no job. I chose not to take it. Not only did Greece decide to take something that was worse than this, but also lied on the form to become a member.

Rory, I think if we're honest, this is much more like every time you wanted something your girlfriend gave it to you, and she was using her dad's credit card.

**rory_20_uk** · 02-22-2012, 19:15

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I find the penury the Greek people are being driven into more than distasteful, and the restrictions being placed upon them are EXPLICITELY stated to be to make sure they keep up their end of the deal.

As I said - if its about the politicians, get rid of them, don't crash the whole ******** economy, it's pointless.

Rory, I think if we're honest, this is much more like every time you wanted something your girlfriend gave it to you, and she was using her dad's credit card.

The penury is still above the vast majority of the world's population. Deal with it.

The example you give again removes all responsibility that the Greek government had to the situation. To extend your metaphor, even if one's girlfriend is giving one gifts, one should be asking where the money is coming from - and as an adult realise that there are very things free in life. If it wasn't an explicit gift from the source of the money, changes are there will be a bill to pay.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 02-22-2012, 23:50

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The penury is still above the vast majority of the world's population. Deal with it.

The example you give again removes all responsibility that the Greek government had to the situation. To extend your metaphor, even if one's girlfriend is giving one gifts, one should be asking where the money is coming from - and as an adult realise that there are very things free in life. If it wasn't an explicit gift from the source of the money, changes are there will be a bill to pay.

The only people paying though are the Greek poor, and reducing them to third world status and saying "deal with it" is not sensible, because if we go on like this we might well have to "deal" with a new Junta.

**Kralizec** · 02-23-2012, 00:36

Every layer of the population evades taxes, the rich just are more succesful at it because they can afford professional help.

"Third world status"? The fact of the matter is that Greece has acquired the level of development it has today by financial practices which are obviously unsustainable. I realize that pushing Greece into economic servitude isn't desirable or feasible. Ask again when Greece's minimum wage drops to the level of Poland or Slovakia, at which point your words may have some merit.

I still don't see why the Germans (or anyone else) are racists for demanding that Greece displays financial sense in return for loans.

Carthago delenda est.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 02-23-2012, 00:51

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Every layer of the population evades taxes, the rich just are more succesful at it because they can afford professional help.

"Third world status"? The fact of the matter is that Greece has acquired the level of development it has today by financial practices which are obviously unsustainable. I realize that pushing Greece into economic servitude isn't desirable or feasible. Ask again when Greece's minimum wage drops to the level of Poland or Slovakia, at which point your words may have some merit.

I still don't see why the Germans (or anyone else) are racists for demanding that Greece displays financial sense in return for loans.

Carthago delenda est.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I'm sorry, how have I not been clear?

I know Greeks who pay taxes, some of them are over here wondering if, you know, they should be going home.

You are making a blanket generalisation about an entire country - all Greeks are lazy and dishonest, just like all Italians and licentacious cowards, and you ask where I detect the whiff of prejudice?

In Greece, people need soup kitches to survive, we're talking lines around the block here. Sure, Greek wages were inflated, but so were Greek expenses, and the latter have continued to got up while the former have fallen.

you are also subscribing to "people = Government", what is happening is that the Greek people are suffering for the sins of Greek politicians, it's not like there was a referendum on the Euro.

For that matter, they're also suffering for the sins of the German politicians who let Greece join despite knowing the books were cooked and were subsequently the first to run defecits that broke the existing fiscal compact.

Lets he who is without sin cast the first stone, eh?

This WILL NOT WORK. More austerity placed on Greece will cause the economy to continue to contract, requireing more austerity to meat loan repayments, causing further contraction, requiring more loans, requiring more austerity to meet repayments, requireing more contraction.

Read Dickens on Debtors Prison, once you go in you can never escape unless someone else pays your way out.

**Beskar** · 02-23-2012, 01:06

Still amazes me that intergovernment lending and debt within the UK alone is far more than the Greek Debt. I am surprised that the Greek debt is really such a massive issue everyone is making out it is, especially when there are 27 countries involved.

I am guessing it is mainly due to the lack of fiscal union which makes it a gear-wrenching mess.

**Kralizec** · 02-23-2012, 01:29

Oh please. Get off your high horse.

I never, never said that all Greeks are lazy, dishonest or whatever. I said that tax evasion is prevalent in all layers of their society - and that is pretty obvious, because it's the same in the Netherlands, and presumably everywhere else. Off the top of my head, I could name 5 personal friends/acquaintances right now who have held jobs that weren't on the employer's books. And allthough few people would deny the necessity of taxes as such, our fiscal agency isn't exactly the most popular institution of our government. Fact: in Greece, it's worse.

Yes, the other European countries are partly responsible because they were aware that Greece's bookkeeping practices were dubious. You seem to be singling out Germany especially for some reason (are you an anti-German racist?), but whatever. It's still primarily the Greek state which was at fault. And I still maintain that the Greek population carries a lot more fault for what happened to them than German taxpayers, who by the way weren't able to vote on the Euro either, let alone on the entry of basket case countries like Greece.

The truly heartless approach to Greece would have been to let it go bankrupt from the outset, kick them out of the EMU and into certain doom and use the money to bail out affected financial institutes instead. In fact I remember some economists who suggested exactly that when the whole mess started collapsing on itself. Instead, the EU and IMF is lending them money at interest rates which are generously low considering the fact that nobody else would lend to them at all. Yet somehow Germany (in particular) is racist for not helping them enough, and for not providing help without strings attached.

**PanzerJaeger** · 02-23-2012, 05:54

Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

This WILL NOT WORK. More austerity placed on Greece will cause the economy to continue to contract, requireing more austerity to meat loan repayments, causing further contraction, requiring more loans, requiring more austerity to meet repayments, requireing more contraction.

...until Greece reaches a state in which the public sector economy is a manageable proportion of the whole economy. It will be a long, painful process and it will probably bring Greece back to a more realistic GDP, but it is the only viable long term solution, other than permanent European welfare for the nation.

There is certainly room for sympathy in the form of write-offs, but the essential function the repayments represent - that of dismantling the public sector economy - must remain in place. The Greeks will not do it themselves. Reducing the public sector will definitely cause contraction in the short and medium terms, but suggesting that that reality means that it must continue to be propped up ignores the long term and condemns the Greeks to a future of dependence on those awful, racist Germans.