First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan

[Major Robert Dump]

Before eevryone goes defending him about his 4 deployments we may step back, take a deep breath and consider a few things:

- He may have volunteered for additional deployments prior to his in-between grace period. Some of us do back to back deployments. It is very stressful, but the army doesnt deserve the blame for something I did.

- 4 deployments (if you factor in the grace period) covers well over the time frame of two four-year enlistments, which means that this guy has re-enlisted, maybe even done it twice.

- 4 deployments makes it fairly safe to assume one has marriage problems. His kids are likley headcases as well

Stress, mental disorder, none of this changes my opinion. I still call for his head.

The guys who raped the little girl and killed her family in Iraq did not recieve the death penalty, and a couple of the got off pretty easy while the other few got life, and their action even resulted in the direct retaliot attack at a checkpoin in which 5 soldiers were killed, 12 injured and 2 abducted and later killed.. The kill squad in Afghanistan who killed men in front of their families then posed with their bodies got long prison sentences, and their actions resulted in soldiers being killed in retaliation. The Taliban and HAqqani are not the only ones with access to RPGs and IEDs: Afghans communicate through violence, and when there is a surge of IED activity in an area it can often be attributed to locals (teachers, farmers, random joe) planting the IEDs because they want something or don't want something. The IED activity in the provinces where the kill team operated got so bad the convoys stopped. Way to take ten steps backwards, yay!

I have no reason to believe that this guy will get death. If we want to talk international politics and the worlkds perception of america, executing our soldiers who did bad things would work wonders. If it were up to me I would have been executing soldiers in some of the more brutal rape cases in south korea.

From me to you guys, from people who have to deal with the fallout of this on a daily basis, I can assure y0ou wholeheartedly that the average military member wants this guy hung out to dry, shot in the face, and brushed under the rug. We are tired of this war not making progress, we are tired of the stupid politics, we are tired of being hamstrung by a corrput government who siphons all of our aid (employments in direct support of bases provides far more jobs than the "aid" money given to Karzai, and these jobs incidentally don't figure into the foreign aid package as they are considered a military expenditure, just like FOO money and CERP money -- this is cooking the books, so to speak), and we are tied of paying afghans $6500 for a set of sidewalk stairs and $40,000 for a plywood B-hut, while meanwhile our families back home are unemployed and our election boils down to the old Abortion/Religion/Foreign Oil/Gas Prices debate. You want resluts in Afghanistan? Stop protecting troops who do bad things, as it only breeds more insurgents

And yes, the afghans do not typically prosecute their american killing cops and soldiers because those guys end up dead or whished away to an american detention facility. However, I will point out there is a huge difference between a cop killing a soldier of an occupying force and a soldier of an occupying force committing premeditated killing of civilians.

Kill him. Please.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

A sudden and deadly onset? He snuck out of the post and assassinated people in cold blood. This was not a crime of passion, nor something that was unpreventable. The blame is with the shooter.

Exactly...He killed some people, and then walked nearly a mile to another village and killed some more.

[PanzerJaeger]

TBI does not cause people to sneak out and assassinate two households full of people. That is insulting to people who actually have TBI and actually suffer real symptoms of TBI.

You cannot say that with any certainty whatsoever. TBI, especially long term cases, can cause all sorts of cognitive changes, especially in one's ability to discern between right and wrong, process emotions, and act rationally. Those symptoms can manifest slowly or rather suddenly. Again, it is way too early to blame this wholly or partially on the condition, but it is exactly the kind of thing that would make a seemingly normal, long-time combat veteran sneak out of his base and kill a bunch of strangers. As has already been said, it is highly doubtful that this man joined the Army, worked his way up to staff seargent, and served four tours with the intention of killing 16 Afghanis on his fourth. Something snapped.

Why is everyone trying to make excuses for this dude?

I can only speak for myself, but I am not trying to make excuses. He killed 16 innocent people and his life is effectively and rightly over for all intents and purposes. I am interested in understanding why this happened. There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle yet to be uncovered, but the picture that has emerged so far is certainly not black and white. There is little that can be gained from writing him off as an evil killer and hanging him.

MRD,

As you surely know, re-enlistments are more than often the result of economic necessity. Is it not the Army's responsibility to screen such folks? (And in fact, I know that they do to a certain extent.) This guy seems to have had more red flags than should be acceptable.

Also, it makes perfect sense that those most angered by this guys actions would be his fellow soldiers. He has set their cause back in countless ways. However, that should not be the standard used to judge his actions.

[CountArach]

In my opinion, the people calling for this soldier's head are being extremely short-sighted. From what we have learned about him thus far, it appears that he is just as much of a victim as the Afghans he killed.

That a bit of an over-exaggeration.

People want less money for the services while we are STILL fighting a war and it results in more men dying and being destroyed by the rigors and horror of war with nary a break in between.

What has funding got to do with this? Don't tell me there weren't people who had done fewer than 3 tours already who were willing to go out there. This isn't a funding issue.

[rory_20_uk]

If the man was a schizophrenic then he should be sent to a mental health institution for the safety of himself and others for the rest of his life. There is no cure, he's already proven incredibly dangerous, and schizophrenics tend to relapse in a bad way as soon as they stop taking their meds. So, if you're saying he deserves to be put under constant care and supervision for the rest of his life then I agree--but if he's not crazy at all then all you're doing is insulting millions of schizophrenics by putting this guy in their camp.

I was postulating to a cause. I am not a psychiatrist, nor have I interviewed the person.

I think Rory is stating that a sczhoid break would have this sudden and deadly onset that no amount of Pre pep talks could have prevented.

Exactly.

TBI does not cause people to sneak out and assassinate two households full of people. That is insulting to people who actually have TBI and actually suffer real symptoms of TBI.

Why is everyone trying to make excuses for this dude?

A sudden and deadly onset? He snuck out of the post and assassinated people in cold blood. This was not a crime of passion, nor something that was unpreventable. The blame is with the shooter.

Oh, you're an expert in psychiatry now? Amazing how the more ignorant one is the more one can talk with confidence.

And for the record, I am looking for a reason, not an excuse. As far as I am concerned if he did this of sound mind he should be executed, and if he is this mentally ill... he should be executed.

[Husar]

Geez, I learned from any other murder threads that people shouldn't talk so much about the murderer and how bad his childhood was and care more about the 16 victims he killed and their families' need for justice to be served.
Why should tax payers pay for the mental facility costs for a guy who is essentially broken anyway? Death penalty is the cheaper and more humane option.

[Centurion1]

TBI does not cause people to sneak out and assassinate two households full of people. That is insulting to people who actually have TBI and actually suffer real symptoms of TBI.

Why is everyone trying to make excuses for this dude?



A sudden and deadly onset? He snuck out of the post and assassinated people in cold blood. This was not a crime of passion, nor something that was unpreventable. The blame is with the shooter.

You have no idea what the effects of TBI are. I don't know why your posturing as some sort of know all about TBI.

Schizophrenia can manifest itself suddenly and without warning in an adults life. Often environmental concerns exacerbate this. You will notice that schizophrenic children are an aberration. So no it isnt a stretch that with all of the pressure on him his schizophrenia suddenly decided to manifest itself.

As for TBI, are you kidding me? You know all the effects of TBI? Better publish your findings because most professionals in your field still don't know all the effects. Some people have short term memory loss, others become nearly useless to society, some have motor problems. It's really that unimaginable that those huge blasts could rattle something loose int he brain that results in an atrocity like this?

A sudden and deadly onset? He snuck out of the post and assassinated people in cold blood. This was not a crime of passion, nor something that was unpreventable. The blame is with the shooter.

The blame always lies with the shooter no one is denying that. However, the crime is so heinous and doesnt make enough sense that SOMETHING had to be seriously wrong with this individual. If he had only killed full grown men I would be more easily able to understand his actions. However, he killed women and children which makes it much more bizarre.

Anyways, my views lie along with PJ's. I don't give a damn what happens to him live or die as long as he sees a just punishment for his crime. What I really care about is WHY it happened and what we can do to safeguard against it. I will rest far easier if it was something like psychosis because it will have been an oddity rather thn something that could become more common.

What has funding got to do with this? Don't tell me there weren't people who had done fewer than 3 tours already who were willing to go out there. This isn't a funding issue.

Oh it is to an extent. There isn't enough money to go around so there are increasingly less men and women serving which means that there are more tours per head. Simply because some men would be WILLING to do uncountable tours doesn't mean they should be. The four tours this guy did isn't an unheard of number to begin with. Also the government is leaning far too heavily upon reserve and guard elements with those guys shipping out far too regularly. They conduct commendable service on their tours but to be shipping out this often is not in their job description.

[a completely inoffensive name]

In this thread:

The murderer is the victim, and this is coming from.....PJ of all people.

and

Everyone who has actually been in the US military and dealt with buddies who have suffered from the war are ignored and called ignorant by armchair generals/psychiatrists.

[Centurion1]

In this thread:

The murderer is the victim, and this is coming from.....PJ of all people.

and

Everyone who has actually been in the US military and dealt with buddies who have suffered from the war are ignored and called ignorant by armchair generals/psychiatrists.

You think I haven't dealt with buddies and family that have suffered or even died in war ACIN? Alot of people on this site have been in the military who do not necessarily talk about it and plenty more know loved ones and friends who have suffered in combat. Regardless, as we all know anecdotes are worthless on the internet so lets stick to facts and verifiable information.

Just because GC was in the Army and served does not mean he is the be all end all when it comes to the effects of TBI. My cousin "has" a mild form of TBI and now he has migraines. I place the "has" in parentheses because we assume its from an IED blast he got while he was overseas since he never got them until after that. It has varying degrees of severity and what precisely it can result in is a pretty broad category.

And as I said in the very first page. I am not excusing this mans actions. As I said I expect him to get the death penalty and will consider anything less than that a travesty of justice. However, I would like to know why and what caused this man to do this because as others have said I find it hard to believe he served for ten years and went on four different tours all for the express purpose of killing some afghan civilians on his fourth tour.

[tibilicus]

In this thread:

The murderer is the victim, and this is coming from.....PJ of all people.

and

Everyone who has actually been in the US military and dealt with buddies who have suffered from the war are ignored and called ignorant by armchair generals/psychiatrists.

This. Whack me over the head ACIN till something comes loose, give me a gun, let me kill 16 people and then make me out as the victim. You guys are seriously defying logic here, even if he was clinically insane, of which the evidence does not suggest he still murdered, in cold blood 16 people. He coldly calculated this and made the active choice to leave the base and carry out these actions. It's sad really, I think half of you are defending him just because he's a guy in uniform. If you stopped defending your nut cases who knows you might have a better military, one which has a better reputation. Maybe then this war would be going better and 6 guys from 3 Yorks on our side wouldn't have got killed this week because the sheer animosity for your actions and by extension our actions wouldn't be as god damn high as it is now. get some perspective for Christ sake guys..

[rvg]

If you stopped defending your nut cases who knows you might have a better military, one which has a better reputation. Maybe then this war would be going better and 6 guys from 3 Yorks on our side wouldn't have got killed this week because the sheer animosity for your actions and by extension our actions wouldn't be as god damn high as it is now. get some perspective for Christ sake guys..

We can't change the past. You are assuming that if we behaved impeccably 100% of the time the locals would somehow appreciate it and treat us differently. I believe you are mistaken: they'd still hate our guts and backstab us whenever possible. Keep in mind that no matter how nice you try to play, to them you are still an infidel, i.e. subhuman. As far as they are concerned, any evil that they might inflict on you is morally okay.

[tibilicus]

We can't change the past. You are assuming that if we behaved impeccably 100% of the time the locals would somehow appreciate it and treat us differently. I believe you are mistaken: they'd still hate our guts and backstab us whenever possible. Keep in mind that no matter how nice you try to play, to them you are still an infidel, i.e. subhuman. As far as they are concerned, any evil that they might inflict on you is morally okay.

The road may be bumpy but there's things which could be done to make the ride smoother. the Last month or so has done nothing of the sort however.

[Centurion1]

This. Whack me over the head ACIN till something comes loose, give me a gun, let me kill 16 people and then make me out as the victim. You guys are seriously defying logic here, even if he was clinically insane, of which the evidence does not suggest he still murdered, in cold blood 16 people. He coldly calculated this and made the active choice to leave the base and carry out these actions. It's sad really, I think half of you are defending him just because he's a guy in uniform. If you stopped defending your nut cases who knows you might have a better military, one which has a better reputation. Maybe then this war would be going better and 6 guys from 3 Yorks on our side wouldn't have got killed this week because the sheer animosity for your actions and by extension our actions wouldn't be as god damn high as it is now. get some perspective for Christ sake guys..

Oh my God I am so sick of this European crap. You act like your some sort of enlightened race. Then why the hell do you people constantly engage in these **** measuring contests about how superior your armed forces are. Guess what, regardless of your "super training" your militaries aren't as powerful, give it up. You couldn't even conduct an air campaign without our JDAMs.

If you stopped defending your nut cases who knows you might have a better military, one which has a better reputation. Maybe then this war would be going better and 6 guys from 3 Yorks on our side wouldn't have got killed this week because the sheer animosity for your actions and by extension our actions wouldn't be as god damn high as it is now. get some perspective for Christ sake guys..

You want to throw around insulting swill like this boyo? You think your military has been behaving any better? Your laughable, remember a little incident with a man named Baha Mousa? What happened to those involved again?

Guess what of all your men investigated for Baha Mousa were cleared with a couple getting slaps on the wrist.

Go hide your own bloody rag before you point at ours.

And as I said in the very first page. I am not excusing this mans actions. As I said I expect him to get the death penalty and will consider anything less than that a travesty of justice.

What I really care about is WHY it happened and what we can do to safeguard against it. I will rest far easier if it was something like psychosis because it will have been an oddity rather thn something that could become more common.

Read from now on.

[Major Robert Dump]

This was a highly pre-meditated act.

Some of you forget that things like this happen in the civilian world all the time, as some people are simply sociopaths, some are delusional, some are evil, and some simply get drunk and do jacked up stuff, and they do not have the luxury of blaming combat stress and IEDs.

I should also point out that the amount of counseling shoved down our throats regarding injuries, mental conditions and hurt feelings is enough to make me want to kill myself during the 80th suicide brief I had this year. As GC said, the help is there, and there is no stigma to using it anymore, in fact, the VA and our command cells actively EXPECT us to use it, and everytime something bad happens to me or my friends I am flooded with chaplains and commanders trying to talk about my feelings. If this guy went crazy -- which I highly doubt -- then his entire chain of command failed for not catching it.

It happens, but not like this. A more typical result is that he hurts himself.

People with TBI and PTSD have done some pretty wierd things, some of them worse than others, and virtually all of them had some sort of catalyst and lead-up, a burning fuse if you will.

What none of them had in common was a guy who had to virtually SNEAK or BS his way out of a FOB that is on 100% lockdown, SNEAK a mile into a sleeping community, and then go house to house killing people.

In fact, why didn;'t he just wait for a patrol or mission and do it then? Was he expecting to be SNEAKY and get away with it? Did he not want to be gunned down by his fellow soldiers? Or maybe he is a FOBBIT and his combat stress amounts to Outlook problems and by god he just couldnt take it anymore. sounds like he put some thought into it. Wow, not very PTSD-ey or TBI-ey of him, planning it and all....

I seem to recall 2 NavyPRT enlisted who stole a State Department Vehicle in 2010, scored some hooch, and decided to drivedrunk outside of Kabul and go looking for brothels and try to fight the Taliban all by themselves. Wow, what a crazy stupid thing to do. Those guys must have had TBI...... oh you guys didn't know they were drunk? Well, the government doesn't always tell us everything because they don't want to ruin the image we have of our soldiers, of whom the public incidentally has a far mroe wholesome view of than the soldiers do of each other

You need to chill out Centurion and take it easy on GC.

[CountArach]

Please remain civilised, there is some good discussion in this thread and I don't want to lock it

[Sarmatian]

This. Whack me over the head ACIN till something comes loose, give me a gun, let me kill 16 people and then make me out as the victim. You guys are seriously defying logic here, even if he was clinically insane, of which the evidence does not suggest he still murdered, in cold blood 16 people. He coldly calculated this and made the active choice to leave the base and carry out these actions. It's sad really, I think half of you are defending him just because he's a guy in uniform. If you stopped defending your nut cases who knows you might have a better military, one which has a better reputation. Maybe then this war would be going better and 6 guys from 3 Yorks on our side wouldn't have got killed this week because the sheer animosity for your actions and by extension our actions wouldn't be as god damn high as it is now. get some perspective for Christ sake guys..

There is just one problem with this theory. If this

he was clinically insane

is true then this

murdered, in cold blood 16 people. He coldly calculated this and made the active choice to leave the base and carry out these actions.

doesn't make any sense.

I'm not trying to defend the guy, but only way I see him killing 16 civilians with a healthy mind is if it was a misguided sense of revenge (Afghans killed my buddies!) or deep hatred/racism (they don't deserve to live!).

Any other explanation revolves around him having psychological issues.

I understand GC's position - he's there, working his ass off and risking his life to win hearts and mind of those people and then one man does something like this and resets everything.

On the other hand, I have really little faith in American justice system in cases like this. I'm willing to bet that this guy either way won't get the chair or life in prison. 20 euros! Any takers?

[Major Robert Dump]

He won't get the death penalty. We are harder on 4th-tier terrorists who entrap with dumb plots that never had a chance of working to begin with, than we are on soldiers who completely abandoned the militry values and set the mission back years, negating all progress and sacrifice that was made by others.

Do you know what commanding officers during the civil war did to soldiers who were caught raping locals when the army looted the town for food? They hung them on the spot. I want those days back.

[gaelic cowboy]

He won't get the death penalty. We are harder on 4th-tier terrorists who entrap with dumb plots that never had a chance of working to begin with, than we are on soldiers who completely abandoned the militry values and set the mission back years, negating all progress and sacrifice that was made by others.

Do you know what commanding officers during the civil war did to soldiers who were caught raping locals when the army looted the town for food? They hung them on the spot. I want those days back.

Does America allow extradition to countries with the death penalty, I expect the Afghans will want him to appear before whatever kinds of courts the have after he faces the American ones.

[Sarmatian]

Does America allow extradition to countries with the death penalty, I expect the Afghans will want him to appear before whatever kinds of courts the have after he faces the American ones.

Nope, America doesn't allow extradition of its citizens and in cases like Afghanistan, I'm guessing that exterritoriality for Americans in Afghanistan was one of the first documents Karzai had to sign.

[tibilicus]

Oh my God I am so sick of this European crap. You act like your some sort of enlightened race. Then why the hell do you people constantly engage in these **** measuring contests about how superior your armed forces are. Guess what, regardless of your "super training" your militaries aren't as powerful, give it up. You couldn't even conduct an air campaign without our JDAMs.



You want to throw around insulting swill like this boyo? You think your military has been behaving any better? Your laughable, remember a little incident with a man named Baha Mousa? What happened to those involved again?

Guess what of all your men investigated for Baha Mousa were cleared with a couple getting slaps on the wrist.

Go hide your own bloody rag before you point at ours.






Read from now on.

Don't act like a whiny child. Yes we've had our problems but why do you think the number of detestable incidents involving our troops is significantly less than those involving your troops? Even then I don't defend the actions of murderers, unlike you, falling hand over foot trying to defend this guy who murdered 16 people.

And yes, we aren't as powerful as you, I didn't ask to get into a manhood measuring contest, you spend vast amounts of money on your military, money us "lesser" powers don't have. I like your attitude though, I guess you don't need our support in these wars though. Maybe you should go back to funding US sponsored terrorism the UK had to fight on its own soil for 30 years.. You only stopped doing that when you needed our help didn't you?

[gaelic cowboy]

Don't act like a whiny child. Yes we've had our problems but why do you think the number of detestable incidents involving our troops is significantly less than those involving your troops? Even then I don't defend the actions of murderers, unlike you, falling hand over foot trying to defend this guy who murdered 16 people.

And yes, we aren't as powerful as you, I didn't ask to get into a manhood measuring contest, you spend vast amounts of money on your military, money us "lesser" powers don't have. I like your attitude though, I guess you don't need our support in these wars though. Maybe you should go back to funding US sponsored terrorism the UK had to fight on its own soil for 30 years.. You only stopped doing that when you needed our help didn't you?

British governments have been funding and allowing state sanctioned barbarism for centuries there is none of us thats white knights.

And for the last time the IRA funds itself privately through bank robberies, protection rackets, tiger kidnapping, taxing organised crime and smuggling any private fundraising in the US was never that big.

The country most at risk from the Provisionals was and is always my own country.

[tibilicus]

British governments have been funding and allowing state sanctioned barbarism for centuries there is none of us thats white knights.

And for the last time the IRA funds itself privately through bank robberies, protection rackets, tiger kidnapping, taxing organised crime and smuggling any private fundraising in the US was never that big.

The country most at risk from the Provisionals was and is always my own country.

Yes, our country has acted badly, but in the modern period we never funded terrorists which damaged our "allies". It's the double standards I have a problem with. I expected no better from Gadaffi's Libya but the point is a mere 2 years after the US government essentially stopped endorsing the IRA, they expected our help in fighting there own terrorist security threat. And yes, they did have sanctioned US government support. By giving visas to known IRA members, arguing openly that the "armed struggle" was part of the "liberation" of Northern Ireland and the various actions of US congressmen who gave moeny both directly and indirectly to arm the provos.

Yet 2 years after the Good Friday Agreement we were unilaterally brought into the war on "terror", in response to a terrorist atrocity. I have a problem with this US sponsored terrorism and the fact successive UK governments have chained our foreign policy to the USA's despite they funded terrorist organisations who killed and murdered UK troops and funded a bloody conflict on our own soil. What makes the IRA claim to Northern Ireland a more legitimate cause than Bin Laden's desire to impose Islamic law in an Islamic region and remove all US presence from the Middle East? I say this not because I support Al-Qaeda, but because i deplore terrorism in all forms. Unlike certain elements of the US establishment.

[rvg]

Yet 2 years after the Good Friday Agreement we were unilaterally brought into the war on "terror", in response to a terrorist atrocity. I have a problem with this US sponsored terrorism and the fact successive UK governments have chained our foreign policy to the USA's despite they funded terrorist organisations who killed and murdered UK troops and funded a bloody conflict on our own soil.

Can you be more specific about the sources of aforementioned funding and their relation to Uncle Sam?

[Vladimir]

Can you be more specific about the sources of aforementioned funding and their relation to Uncle Sam?

It's the same people at CIA that sold crack to black people in Los Angeles. In fact, part of the proceeds were used to finance these attacks.

[tibilicus]

Can you be more specific about the sources of aforementioned funding and their relation to Uncle Sam?

Peter King, just one such lawmaker who was never brought to justice for his role in arming a group which killed hundreds of British and Irish.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...rorism-problem

Clinton by granting visas to Sinn Feinn members who had connections with and actively supported the PIRA gave them a platform of legitimization which provided further endorsement for their cause which legitimized groups such NORAID, a group which gave more money and arms to the PIRA than Libya itself. Imagine giving a platform to radical Islamist politicians (i.e the Taliban) who supported Al-Qaeda and then see why I see double standards.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-1410627.html

[rvg]

Peter King, just one such lawmaker who was never brought to justice for his role in arming a group which killed hundreds of British and Irish.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...rorism-problem

Clinton by granting visas to Sinn Feinn members who had connections with and actively supported the PIRA gave them a platform of legitimization which provided further endorsement for their cause which legitimized groups such NORAID, a group which gave more money and arms to the PIRA than Libya itself. Imagine giving a platform to radical Islamist politicians (i.e the Taliban) who supported Al-Qaeda and then see why I see double standards.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-1410627.html

Interesting... a quick look at wiki puts the claim of NORA being the front for PIRA as questionable at best. You're besmirching the name of American government because one congressmen supports a non-profit organization that *might* have been linked to PIRA, even though in its mission statement it clearly disavows violence.

As for Clinton and Sinn Fein, Sinn Fein has been a political movement while IRA did the dirty work. We support PLO but consider Al Aqsa Martyrs brigade to be terrorists, same deal here.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes, our country has acted badly, but in the modern period we never funded terrorists which damaged our "allies". It's the double standards I have a problem with. I expected no better from Gadaffi's Libya but the point is a mere 2 years after the US government essentially stopped endorsing the IRA, they expected our help in fighting there own terrorist security threat. And yes, they did have sanctioned US government support. By giving visas to known IRA members, arguing openly that the "armed struggle" was part of the "liberation" of Northern Ireland and the various actions of US congressmen who gave moeny both directly and indirectly to arm the provos.

Thats pure rubbish no american government not even Kennedy's one ever supported any IRA campaigns, if members of congress spoke some words out of the side of there mouth for electoral reasons then they were more than willing to ignore them once inside the corridors of power.

Lets remember though that plenty UK politicians are more than capable of doing the same pronouncements out of the sides of there mouths too.

Also I think you will find visas were only given to known IRA members AFTER the peace process had started as part of the process(no doubt they were talked to on the sidelines over there on there intentions).

Yet 2 years after the Good Friday Agreement we were unilaterally brought into the war on "terror", in response to a terrorist atrocity.

I suppose you could say governments and people just couldnt see how you could ever talk with Bin Laden he was quite clearly a looper.

I have a problem with this US sponsored terrorism and the fact successive UK governments have chained our foreign policy to the USA's despite they funded terrorist organisations who killed and murdered UK troops and funded a bloody conflict on our own soil.

Not one US government ever funded terrorism in the North not one however US governments I will grant you they have funded terror elsewhere. Also if US private citizens gave money thats a far different kettle of fish and seeing as plenty UK citzens give and have given money for terrorism I see little difference.

What makes the IRA claim to Northern Ireland a more legitimate cause than Bin Laden's desire to impose Islamic law in an Islamic region and remove all US presence from the Middle East? I say this not because I support Al-Qaeda, but because i deplore terrorism in all forms. Unlike certain elements of the US establishment.

Strictly speaking there is no difference, but it's like anything else in life you will just know it when you see it.

It's easy to understand the IRA though there are ordinary people up and down the North who support them, and crucially there never going to just go away enough they can be ignored.

Terrorism has being used as a tool by government for centuries we shouldnt be surprised about it, but I can say with all honesty that IRA campaigns were never funded or helped by American governments.

[gaelic cowboy]

Peter King, just one such lawmaker who was never brought to justice for his role in arming a group which killed hundreds of British and Irish.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...rorism-problem

Clinton by granting visas to Sinn Feinn members who had connections with and actively supported the PIRA gave them a platform of legitimization which provided further endorsement for their cause which legitimized groups such NORAID, a group which gave more money and arms to the PIRA than Libya itself. Imagine giving a platform to radical Islamist politicians (i.e the Taliban) who supported Al-Qaeda and then see why I see double standards.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-1410627.html

It's also worth remebering that the Americans would have had members of congress and it's security establishment engage in contact with the IRA in order that if they did somehow drive the British out they would not end up in the soviet camp.

A soviet satelite in the Atlantic could not be allowed ever as it would give soviet subs an ice free, blue water harbours less than a hours flight from London.

It would have destabilised the NATO plans which no doubt were based on complete control of sea access to the UK.

So yes some shadowy evil in the CIA prob sat down and wargammed IRA senarios on what might happen, and sometimes they might even have engaged in a bit of double dealing.

It's a stretch however to say there was ever full or real governmental support, it's like saying the UK governments supported IRA terror on themselves because all the spies in it's ranks who continued to engage in terror activities to maintian cover.

And I already explained the visa situation with regard to Gerry Adams, that visa was acknowledged as really driving the agreement forward. (afterwards of course) I understand you dislike having to treat with Gerry Adams but thats the game and you know that yourself.

[Kagemusha]

Because I know that if I were a relative, I would aim for the stomach or nads. You shouldn't have that much passion being involved with an execution.
Professional firing squad, aiming for the head would do just fine. Of all the ways one can be executed, I think I would find that the easiest and least humiliating.

Firing squads are not aiming for the head, but chest.

[Major Robert Dump]

Maybe in addition to TBI, this soldier who kept volunteering for deployments was also sold crack by the CIA. And here I didn't even realize he was black.