With Great Sacrifice [Concluded]

[edse]

If there actually is a pure sacrifice in this game and you know it could you please tell us who you are. I feel that we both benefit if we lynch the mafia.

As Montmorency says, BSmith is most likely to be scum if you look at who got killed.

[Montmorency]

Who are you talking to?

There's only one townie besides you, and I doubt he's exceptional in any way.

[edse]

Who are you talking to?

There's only one townie besides you, and I doubt he's exceptional in any way.

I'm talking to them. I just mean that the pure sacrifice doesn't have to be afraid to step forward.

[Visor]

It's lewwyn!

[Montmorency]

[edse]

It would surely have been Lewwyn if I (or BSmith if he's innocent) would have been killed.

[Lewwyn]

If I'm the pure sacrifice, I don't know it. I never received a PM giving me any role. It's probably a red herring at this point.

Yesterday, I was willing to take BSmith down, but it's freaking a lot harder when you know this is the lynch that seals it. Between edse and BSmith, neither one has really engendered a lot of villager vibes in me.

Vote: BSmith

I hate voting with mafia, even if they are dead. But Monty makes a few points. Monty is there something else that makes you so sure?

[edse]

Vote: BSmith

You can't be mafia if you openly decline to be the pure sacrifice. Seems like the mafia are just unpure souls that need no be killed for the rain to return.

[Montmorency]

I'm not Mafia:I'm lawful-transcendant.

BSmith exhibits, for instance, the same sorts of tells that got Chaotix wagoned and alerted the other Gods to my identity.

To say nothing of his hollow and one-note denials...

[LazyMcCrow]

I'm kind of glad I don't have to make the choice. Could be any one of ya.

[BSmith]

This is all unbelievably predictable. I was already coming around to the fact that the last killer was either Lewwyn or Lazy, and that the results of the night would tell me who it really was. Let’s face it, neither Edse or I would have been killed last night, as we have both garnered a lot of attention in the thread and it would be dumb to kill one of us.

Lewwyn – you have played remarkably well this game, so if you are successful in lynching me today, hats off to you. You really do deserve the win.

But I am going to make one last stand here.

First off – what exactly is the case against me? The fact that I am still alive and am a capable mafia player that could have pulled this off to the last day? Or is it something more concrete? So far every accusation against me has been an unsubstantiated case with nothing solid.

Here are some recent examples of what I mean:

BSmith exhibits, for instance, the same sorts of tells that got Chaotix wagoned and alerted the other Gods to my identity.

To say nothing of his hollow and one-note denials...

What tells exactly? Lazy votes? This is an empty accusation that sounds good on the face of it, but really is a bunch of hogwash. And how exactly am I supposed to deny these accusations in a way that you wouldn’t consider hollow or one-note. It’s not like I have a role PM to share with you all or a way to independently confirm my innocence.

Between edse and BSmith, neither one has really engendered a lot of villager vibes in me.

Why? This is also an empty accusation. One that sounds good, but is nothing more than a feeling at best. Nothing to back it up. Think about this for a minute, only one of the three us is the killer, yet both edse and I don’t “engender villager vibes”. Not only is this a baseless accusation, but it is meant to spread the wealth as far as possible. How do we not seem like villagers. Examples would be helpful here.

I challenge anyone still paying attention to this game to build a solid case against me.

Speaking of solid cases. Here is one for you. Subject: Lewwyn.

He has played a great game and has not really been the subject of much scrutiny most of the game. He came close to being lynched early on, but was pretty masterful in getting out of it. He didn’t crack under the pressure. Hell, even I have been fooled by his towniness until recently. But there are some convincing things that do stand out:

1.) The DaveShack kill. Despite the general unease many expressed about talking at night, this may have been the best thing to do, as a lot of discussion about the remaining players was had, with specific attention to DaveShack and Edse. DaveShack was top of my list and was certain to get some play vote-wise the next day. But he got killed. Not a very smart move for a killer as he would rather off someone who isn’t likely to be lynch bait.

But this is the kind of “mistake” that someone who wasn’t online to see the discussion could have made. He would have sent in his orders early in the night, and then woken up to see that his choice in kill was actually a blunder.

The next day I thought of this, and checked to see who had been online last in hopes of finding one of the players had not been online for a while and could have made this “mistake”. Well most of you have the last activity function turned off on your profiles, so this didn’t lead to much, but we do have one post that gives us an answer:

That was a pretty awesome post. Honestly though, I'm not convinced yet. I think the crux here is that post 126. Is that confirming a connection to Yaropolk? I went back and looked, it comes after the kills so yeah I can see where you're coming from. Why would you even bring it up if you're not concerned with his death? On the other hand, I think there's a stronger case that a mafia player would ignore it and try to distance himself from the kill, not lament it. I think you're looking at it wrong.

I've been going back through a bit and I've been focusing on those that are here but are contributing very little, mostly White_Eyes and BSmith. This is not to say that one of them is definitely the killer, but I think what we should put pressure on them today to see if they are paying attention enough to defend themselves.

As for edse I've been on his case a lot this game, but for the last couple days we've had pretty much confirmed mafia to lynch. edse I'm still watching but I've seen more guilt elsewhere for now... It's late in my TimeZone. I will try to arrange some evidence to explain my concerns about White_Eyes and BSmith.

Shortly after this post is when DaveShack defends himself and Lazy buys it. It is completely plausible that Lewwyn saw this retraction and decided that DaveShack was a good choice for the kill, then logged off and went to bed, missing the later discussions on DaveShack that raised his suspicion yet again. Lewwyn even points out the next day how it must have been someone that missed the later discussion in the night. Someone just like him.

I also like how he compares me to White_Eyes in this post as someone who has contributed very little, even though I have many more posts that W_E at this time (I had a similar count to Lewwyn in fact) and most of them have been serious posts that contribute to the thread. This is his way of continuing to build a case against me so that I would be the eventual lynch target instead of him at a later time.

2.) Similar to this last point, is Lewwyn’s attention on edse. He has been consistently suspicious of edse most of the game, but one post sticks out to me on this:

Damn that's a write up. So Jarema and Ishmael are dead and Chaotix is banished to hell?

I'm of the opinion that we have some real lurkers here. I mean throughout the last few days we've had so few posts, lots of people not voting or giving more than one post a day. People that aren't sticking their neck out and are hiding. Someone in that group is likely to be a killer. Of course I also still suspect edse who somehow is able to silently deflect suspicion without raising a fuss every time there's a vote on him.

Vote: edse

For now.

That “silent deflection” was almost always people, Lewwyn included, that were voting for edse moving on to other more suspicious targets. Yet in the context of Lewwyn the Killer this does make sense to post as Lewwyn is working to keep the suspicion level high on edse to keep attention away from Lewwyn himself and to provide a scape goat target to keep alive to the end.

3.) Lewwyn’s repeated attempts to remind us that he didn’t get a role PM. It is public knowledge that the town didn’t get a role PM, so him telling us this means nothing. Yet he has mentioned it several times in the game. It’s almost like he is trying to sound townie and identify with those of us that really didn’t get a role PM.

4.) Lazy’s Killing. What better position to be in as the last scumbag then to have two alternative targets that are much “better” than you? As I mentioned earlier in the post, both edse and I have gotten a lot of attention over the past few days. Either one of us could be the lynch target with a little work. Hell, it is working right now with both of you voting for me.

Edse and I have both been cultivated for this moment. You don’t kill off your carefully cultivated lynch bait when you are in the end game. You kill off the unknown vote – the one who isn’t going to get any attention against them. If edse or I had been killed, then it would have been an open game (especially if edse had been killed). Totally unpredictable – which is exactly what you don’t want if you can do anything about it.

Lewwyn killed Lazy to eliminate this unpredictability and to leave his two carefully cultivated lynch bait targets alive, so that no matter how the day went he would have a good chance at lynching one of us instead of him getting lynched. A masterful play, but perhaps too much so. It is all too perfect.

It is really quite clear to me now that the last killer is Lewwyn. The only thing that remains is to vote: Lewwyn.

-----

@edse It’s all down to you now. Do you want to win this game? If so, then switch your vote to Lewwyn. The game is in your hands.

[LazyMcCrow]

{haunting}Excellent post. If Lewwyn is the scum then hats off to him..whoooooo-hoooooooo{/haunting}

[Chaotix]

Excellent job.

No one can say you didn't go down fighting, scum.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Scum scum.

[Yaropolk]

Vote: BSmith

Vote: BSmith

vote: Lewwyn.

No No No, you're all wrong!

vote: edse

Did I mention my vote counts triple?

[Lewwyn]

Was out at karaoke, just got back but I'm only slightly buzzed so I should be able answer this post.

This is all unbelievably predictable. I was already coming around to the fact that the last killer was either Lewwyn or Lazy, and that the results of the night would tell me who it really was. Let’s face it, neither Edse or I would have been killed last night, as we have both garnered a lot of attention in the thread and it would be dumb to kill one of us.

Unless its you of course.

First off – what exactly is the case against me? The fact that I am still alive and am a capable mafia player that could have pulled this off to the last day? Or is it something more concrete? So far every accusation against me has been an unsubstantiated case with nothing solid.

Here are some recent examples of what I mean:

What tells exactly? Lazy votes? This is an empty accusation that sounds good on the face of it, but really is a bunch of hogwash. And how exactly am I supposed to deny these accusations in a way that you wouldn’t consider hollow or one-note. It’s not like I have a role PM to share with you all or a way to independently confirm my innocence.

Why? This is also an empty accusation. One that sounds good, but is nothing more than a feeling at best. Nothing to back it up. Think about this for a minute, only one of the three us is the killer, yet both edse and I don’t “engender villager vibes”. Not only is this a baseless accusation, but it is meant to spread the wealth as far as possible. How do we not seem like villagers. Examples would be helpful here.

I challenge anyone still paying attention to this game to build a solid case against me.

I admit this is one of those cases where it's really hard to point to something exact and say he's the killer. But the reason I'm voting for you above all the rest of the reasons is pretty simple. I actually think edse is innocent. Move forward to that quote of me voting for edse. That's actually the last time I voted for him. After that post, edse msged me and asked me if I thought Lazy McCrow was guilty and whether I would be interested in voting for him instead. I responded somewhere in the middle, because I still suspected him. Thing was I felt like edse was innocent after that msg. Maybe I'm crazy but it really felt villagery. And after that I never voted for him again. So while I still found some of edse's posts terrible scummy, I mean some of his accusations have been really short and not very informative, I kept thinking about that msg. Basically the only reason I'm not voting edse is because of it.

Oh and actually there is one other reason that I believe edse is innocent. Yesterday he switched off of White_eyes onto you, BSmith. When he did that the vote was tied at 2 on you and himself, but since the vote on edse hadn't changed while the vote on you went from 1 to 2 that put edse as the vote that reached 2 first and therefore if day ended the one to be lynched. Why would edse switch his vote in a manner that put him at risk? That's actually one of the reasons I switched off of WHite_eyes at that time. I was sure that Lazy and edse were innocent. I thought that either you or White_eyes were the last killer. So I switched onto you to protect him even though of the two f you I suspected White_Eyes most. Something you eventually took advantage of by bargaining us all to move to White_eyes.

So let me address your case against me.

Speaking of solid cases. Here is one for you. Subject: Lewwyn.

1.) The DaveShack kill. Despite the general unease many expressed about talking at night, this may have been the best thing to do, as a lot of discussion about the remaining players was had, with specific attention to DaveShack and Edse. DaveShack was top of my list and was certain to get some play vote-wise the next day. But he got killed. Not a very smart move for a killer as he would rather off someone who isn’t likely to be lynch bait.

But this is the kind of “mistake” that someone who wasn’t online to see the discussion could have made. He would have sent in his orders early in the night, and then woken up to see that his choice in kill was actually a blunder.

The next day I thought of this, and checked to see who had been online last in hopes of finding one of the players had not been online for a while and could have made this “mistake”. Well most of you have the last activity function turned off on your profiles, so this didn’t lead to much, but we do have one post that gives us an answer:



Shortly after this post is when DaveShack defends himself and Lazy buys it. It is completely plausible that Lewwyn saw this retraction and decided that DaveShack was a good choice for the kill, then logged off and went to bed, missing the later discussions on DaveShack that raised his suspicion yet again. Lewwyn even points out the next day how it must have been someone that missed the later discussion in the night. Someone just like him.

I also like how he compares me to White_Eyes in this post as someone who has contributed very little, even though I have many more posts that W_E at this time (I had a similar count to Lewwyn in fact) and most of them have been serious posts that contribute to the thread. This is his way of continuing to build a case against me so that I would be the eventual lynch target instead of him at a later time.

2.) Similar to this last point, is Lewwyn’s attention on edse. He has been consistently suspicious of edse most of the game, but one post sticks out to me on this:

That “silent deflection” was almost always people, Lewwyn included, that were voting for edse moving on to other more suspicious targets. Yet in the context of Lewwyn the Killer this does make sense to post as Lewwyn is working to keep the suspicion level high on edse to keep attention away from Lewwyn himself and to provide a scape goat target to keep alive to the end.

3.) Lewwyn’s repeated attempts to remind us that he didn’t get a role PM. It is public knowledge that the town didn’t get a role PM, so him telling us this means nothing. Yet he has mentioned it several times in the game. It’s almost like he is trying to sound townie and identify with those of us that really didn’t get a role PM.

4.) Lazy’s Killing. What better position to be in as the last scumbag then to have two alternative targets that are much “better” than you? As I mentioned earlier in the post, both edse and I have gotten a lot of attention over the past few days. Either one of us could be the lynch target with a little work. Hell, it is working right now with both of you voting for me.

1) Just to clarify my TZ is +8 GMT. I'm in China. If you want to go back and check the times, you're right I did miss the last part of the discussion. In fact I don't even remember at this point which posts I saw when I went to bed. So yeah. I don't even remember. I can't really argue against this because I don't really think there's an argument here.

2) I guess I've already addressed this, but after that post you quoted I've never voted for edse because I felt he was innocent based on the things I mentioned above. And again he sent me that msg after the post you are highlighting. So at the time of the post I was still really suspicious of him.

3) I don't remember saying it so many times. I DO remember saying it today. Mostly because I was specifically claiming that I was the pure one. I mean how else do you claim your role?

4) Actually if you had been killed instead of Lazy I would be voting for Lazy because as I said I think edse is innocent.

Edse and I have both been cultivated for this moment. You don’t kill off your carefully cultivated lynch bait when you are in the end game. You kill off the unknown vote – the one who isn’t going to get any attention against them. If edse or I had been killed, then it would have been an open game (especially if edse had been killed). Totally unpredictable – which is exactly what you don’t want if you can do anything about it.

Lewwyn killed Lazy to eliminate this unpredictability and to leave his two carefully cultivated lynch bait targets alive, so that no matter how the day went he would have a good chance at lynching one of us instead of him getting lynched. A masterful play, but perhaps too much so. It is all too perfect.

I mean wow. As far as last stands go this is pretty awesome. I mean I cultivated you? The only problem with your whole argument is that I already believe edse is innocent. Something I've been pretty careful to avoid mentioning because I wanted whoever was the killer to think I still suspected him. I mean unless edse actually is the killer, in which case, HE"S the one that played the masterful game. But I'm feeling really confident in my vote on you. I was really hoping that if White_eyes wasn't the killer that I would survive the night for just this reason. So yes as you say you kill off the unknown vote. You couldn't know if I would vote for edse, but you knew for damn sure that Lazy would vote for you. If I were the killer I would have killed edse. Lazy was voting for you all of yesterday and he would have voted for you again today. Based on your own argument, I would have been better off killing edse.

Man, its an awesome attack, awesome last stand but in the end it was either you or White_eyes for me and I've got you in the end.

[BSmith]

I need to correct an inconsistency here:

Oh and actually there is one other reason that I believe edse is innocent. Yesterday he switched off of White_eyes onto you, BSmith. When he did that the vote was tied at 2 on you and himself, but since the vote on edse hadn't changed while the vote on you went from 1 to 2 that put edse as the vote that reached 2 first and therefore if day ended the one to be lynched. Why would edse switch his vote in a manner that put him at risk? That's actually one of the reasons I switched off of WHite_eyes at that time. I was sure that Lazy and edse were innocent. I thought that either you or White_eyes were the last killer. So I switched onto you to protect him even though of the two f you I suspected White_Eyes most. Something you eventually took advantage of by bargaining us all to move to White_eyes.

Edse switched off of me to White_Eyes only after I came off of him. The count was 3-2 against me when Edse posted this:

If you change your vote to White_eyes I can do so as well. I don't want to risk my own life however so one more vote would be needed.

I switched off of Edse to White_Eyes making it 3 for me, 1 for edse and 1 for White Eyes. You and Edse then followed making it 3 for White Eyes and 1 for me in the end.

Edse was never in danger with his vote switch, and in fact voted for White Eyes only after both you and me voted for him. I never bargained you all to move to White Eyes. I responded to edse’s offer and you both followed.

2) I guess I've already addressed this, but after that post you quoted I've never voted for edse because I felt he was innocent based on the things I mentioned above. And again he sent me that msg after the post you are highlighting. So at the time of the post I was still really suspicious of him.

If you thought that edse was innocent, then why the statement about neither one of us “engendering a lot of villager vibes”? That statement was today, and not earlier when it would make sense to hedge your bets in letting on that you thought he was innocent.

3) I don't remember saying it so many times. I DO remember saying it today. Mostly because I was specifically claiming that I was the pure one. I mean how else do you claim your role?

You claimed it twice in this game. Post #87 and the one today. And here is another inconsistency. In this quote you are saying that you ARE the pure one. Earlier today you said you are not:

If I'm the pure sacrifice, I don't know it. I never received a PM giving me any role. It's probably a red herring at this point.

Which one is it?

I mean wow. As far as last stands go this is pretty awesome. I mean I cultivated you? The only problem with your whole argument is that I already believe edse is innocent. Something I've been pretty careful to avoid mentioning because I wanted whoever was the killer to think I still suspected him. I mean unless edse actually is the killer, in which case, HE"S the one that played the masterful game. But I'm feeling really confident in my vote on you. I was really hoping that if White_eyes wasn't the killer that I would survive the night for just this reason. So yes as you say you kill off the unknown vote. You couldn't know if I would vote for edse, but you knew for damn sure that Lazy would vote for you. If I were the killer I would have killed edse. Lazy was voting for you all of yesterday and he would have voted for you again today. Based on your own argument, I would have been better off killing edse.

Two things: Killing Lazy would be such an obvious tell that I wouldn’t do it. Second, it is such an obvious tell that it would be a good kill for someone else to make so they could frame me. It wouldn’t be too hard as I was already a suspect (and seems to be working today as well).

Man, its an awesome attack, awesome last stand but in the end it was either you or White_eyes for me and I've got you in the end.

You may well have me, but if I am wrong here and you are indeed the other innocent one, then you will be sorely disappointed with the loss when edse kills you tonight and wins this game.

One of you two is the last killer. Both of you have played well, and either one of you deserve to win this game. But mark my words. I am one of the innocent ones here.

[BSmith]

I would like to hear what some of the dead (and presumably innocent) players have to say on all of this. Your win or loss is tied up in this decision as well...

[Lewwyn]

I need to correct an inconsistency here:

Edse switched off of me to White_Eyes only after I came off of him. The count was 3-2 against me when Edse posted this:

I switched off of Edse to White_Eyes making it 3 for me, 1 for edse and 1 for White Eyes. You and Edse then followed making it 3 for White Eyes and 1 for me in the end.

Edse was never in danger with his vote switch, and in fact voted for White Eyes only after both you and me voted for him. I never bargained you all to move to White Eyes. I responded to edse’s offer and you both followed.

You're looking at the wrong vote switch. I'm talking about when edse and I were on White_eyes. You and White_eyes were on edse. Then Lazy voted you. edse then switched to you. When he did he put White_eyes at 1 while the votes on him were still at 2. In that case the vote for you came after the vote of 2 on edse so the tiebreaker would have killed edse.

If you thought that edse was innocent, then why the statement about neither one of us “engendering a lot of villager vibes”? That statement was today, and not earlier when it would make sense to hedge your bets in letting on that you thought he was innocent.

True! Mostly I said it because I was still in the habit of keeping the fact I trusted him under wraps. Also, I kinda like the idea of keeping edse on his toes.

You claimed it twice in this game. Post #87 and the one today. And here is another inconsistency. In this quote you are saying that you ARE the pure one. Earlier today you said you are not:
Which one is it?

Ah, twice. I knew I'd said it once before. Also that 'was' was a typo. Wasn't* I have never claimed to be anything other than the villager I am. And it's pretty silly that you are trying to make something out of typo that isn't.

Anyway last post before I head off to bed. I'll be back tmr afternoon to check in, but I'm pretty sure I'm not switching my vote.

[BSmith]

Well if you are who you say you are, and I am most certainly who I say I am, then it means that edse is our guy...

I am not planning on moving my vote either, but think about it. I'd also like to hear from edse on this, and of course the dead players opinions would be welcome. We do have some time here to work this out.

[Montmorency]

Are you guys really wasting so much breath trying to convince ech other?



There's only one factor of any importance here...

[BSmith]

I do still have a not-insignificant sliver of doubt about this.

[Csargo]

Hi!

Vote:Lewwyn

[Montmorency]

Hey Pretzel, I suggest, if you want to at least have the pleasure of seeing your opponents lose, you place your vote on the Champion.

[White_eyes:D]

I knew edse was going to have a cakewalk if he killed lazy...totally fits his MO throughout this game. Town is just going down without a fight.

[Montmorency]

Oy gevalt.

[White_eyes:D]

Well...you won your victory with Chaotix and edse...I would be happier personally.

"Pro-town roles", what a joke.

[Montmorency]

Did you not note that there are multiple teams?

How exasperating...

[White_eyes:D]

Did you not note that there are multiple teams?

Did you not note that your all scum with your own agenda?

How infatuating....

[Montmorency]

I think you may be deeply confused.

[White_eyes:D]

I think your trying too hard....you won after all.