Murders in France

[Hax]

So the fact those Algerians were targeted makes perfect sense, they supported the Infidel

And yet these same Algerians will now be regarded as somehow inherently hostile to France. That makes a lot of sense, right.

Algeria not being French confused France as well.

You're not seriously claiming Algeria is an Islamic country, right?

[rvg]

You're not seriously claiming Algeria is an Islamic country, right?

Why not? It's almost 100% muslim and has a very significant salafist presence.

[Noncommunist]

Yes, he did claim to be an al Queda member/sympathiser, and that's what it is, please spare us the rhetoric about multiculturalists thinking he's an enrichment and blablabla, I've yet to find such a person outside the violent fa-left fringe that is just as lunatic as the violent far-right (which includes islamic terrorists).

It's a case of right wing terrorism and no left-blaming rhetoric is going to change that.
On the other hand that he shot two african soldiers doesn't prove Fragony's basic point (that it was right wing terrorism) wrong because as he said they were soldiers and represented the french state and it's involvement in other countries. At the same time this proves Fragony's other lame point wrong because they were actually an enrichment for France and fought for french values.

What about FARC and other communist terrorists? Shouldn't they count as left wing terrorists?

[Husar]

What about FARC and other communist terrorists? Shouldn't they count as left wing terrorists?

Sure, and how is that relevant here?

And why does Fragony keep playing captain obvious in stating that violent islamic extremism is bad?
Who exactly disagrees with that?
And since when does "islam" mean "violent islamic extremism" anyway? It's like saying the problem is catholicism and then claiming you just mean the IRA but that should've been obvious.

[Hax]

Why not? It's almost 100% muslim and has a very significant salafist presence.

Hey, have you taken a look at the government there lately?

[rvg]

Hey, have you taken a look at the government there lately?

Umm...same guy running the show since 1999, what's your point?

[Hax]

Right, go ahead and tell me all you know about Algeria; tell me about how the secular government murdered entire villages that were supposedly connected to the FIS or when they assassinated dissidents in Spain and France. Algeria is not an Islamic state. Not at all.

Let's face it, you don't know a whole lot about Algeria; neither do I, but at least I don't pretend to. There's a lot I don't know about the Middle East, but what I do know is that saying something like "Algeria is an Islamic country" is an unfounded and ignorant thing to say. Let's just leave it at that, because this thread evidently is not really about the Algerian state.

[HoreTore]

When "one of your own" sides with "the enemy", they are always regarded as worse scum than the enemy itself. An enemy is an enemy, but when "one of us" supports them, they are traitors and much lower on the scale. This is why Quisling was shot and universally hated, while Terboven was shipped back to Germany and largely ignored.

So killing Algerians serving in the French forces fits a war-scenario nicely.

I have to say that I too suspected a nazi. A group of three nazis were suspected after all, and the method fits ABB's description of how to conduct a "bonus operation". On one level, I'm relieved we didn't get a copycat so soon.

Oh, and as for a muslim killer not fitting a "leftie government/media agenda", consider this: ABB has already insipired killings. Two neo-nazi's in Sweden claims to be inspired by him when they whacked a few immigrants. How much news coverage did that get, hm? Forgotten the day after it happened, that's what happened.

Sorry, the media conspiracy to glorify Islamic extremists and villify right-wingers just doesn't exist. Make a good story though, one could almost wish it was true, it would've been a great movie...

[rvg]

Right, go ahead and tell me all you know about Algeria; tell me about how the secular government murdered entire villages that were supposedly connected to the FIS or when they assassinated dissidents in Spain and France. Algeria is not an Islamic state. Not at all.

Sure it is. A lot of its laws are based on sharia, especially when it comes to family law, women's rights, religious freedom, etc.

Let's face it, you don't know a whole lot about Algeria; neither do I, but at least I don't pretend to.

Yet, you claim to know things about me, which I assure you, you do not.

There's a lot I don't know about the Middle East, but what I do know is that saying something like "Algeria is an Islamic country" is an unfounded and ignorant thing to say. Let's just leave it at that, because this thread evidently is not really about the Algerian state.

It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Is it as bad as Saudi Arabia? No. It is still run on islamist principles though.

[gaelic cowboy]

Sure it is. A lot of its laws are based on sharia, especially when it comes to family law, women's rights, religious freedom, etc.




Yet, you claim to know things about me, which I assure you, you do not.




It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Is it as bad as Saudi Arabia? No. It is still run on islamist principles though.

They might have an elected government but millitary are still the ones really in charge like in Eygpt or Pakistan.

[Hax]

Sure it is. A lot of its laws are based on sharia, especially when it comes to family law, women's rights, religious freedom, etc

Right. So actually Algerian law is pretty much based on French law, seeing how it was actually part of France up until 1963. Not a colony, not a protectorate, it was a part of France. In fact, unlike many other countries in the Middle East, the law stipulates that women and men have the right to equal pay. If you want to base this on shari'a, be my guest, but it's actually so far removed from the truth that the very concept is laughable.

Usually I can pretty much understand why people think this way about certain countries in the Middle-East, and I'm really sorry to say it, but your idea of Algeria as being founded on Islamist principles is so ludicrous in its own right that I don't even know where to begin to dispell that myth. If you take a glance at the history of Algeria after the War of Independence, the violent crackdown on the FIS movement in the 1990s springs out immediately. The Algerian government is doing everything to keep Islamists out of the government.

No, I don't know you personally and really, I'm not that interested. But please refrain from making generalising statements about a country like Algeria, and as someone whose father was born in Algeria and whose family members and personal friends were detained, tortured or sometimes even assassinated because government officials merely suspected them of being sympathetic (!) to Islamist movements, it's not just ignorant, it's actually quite offensive.

[rvg]

Right. So actually Algerian law is pretty much based on French law, seeing how it was actually part of France up until 1963. Not a colony, not a protectorate, it was a part of France. In fact, unlike many other countries in the Middle East, the law stipulates that women and men have the right to equal pay. If you want to base this on shari'a, be my guest, but it's actually so far removed from the truth that the very concept is laughable.

http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/legal/Algeria.htm Here, have a laugh then.

Usually I can pretty much understand why people think this way about certain countries in the Middle-East, and I'm really sorry to say it, but your idea of Algeria as being founded on Islamist principles is so ludicrous in its own right that I don't even know where to begin to dispell that myth. If you take a glance at the history of Algeria after the War of Independence, the violent crackdown on the FIS movement in the 1990s springs out immediately. The Algerian government is doing everything to keep Islamists out of the government.

The government is islamist. They are trying to keep hardline islamists from power, but that doesn't mean that the government is secular. It is not.

No, I don't know you personally and really, I'm not that interested. But please refrain from making generalising statements about a country like Algeria, and as someone whose father was born in Algeria and whose family members and personal friends were detained, tortured or sometimes even assassinated because government officials merely suspected them of being sympathetic (!) to Islamist movements, it's not just ignorant, it's actually quite offensive.

I'm merely stating facts. If the facts are offensive to you, then so be it.

[Fragony]

'I have to say that I too suspected a nazi. A group of three nazis were suspected after all, and the method fits ABB's description of how to conduct a "bonus operation".'

Maybe you are right, it's perfectly possible these two incidents aren't even related in the first place

[gaelic cowboy]

RTE news is reporting that he is dead and apparently he admitted to all the murders.



Gunman dead as Toulouse siege ends

Suspected French gunman Mohammed Merah died during a police assault on his flat after jumping out the window while still shooting.
A 23-year-old gunman suspected of killing seven people in France in the name of al-Qaeda has died after a two-day siege.

Mohammed Merah jumped from a window to his death in a hail of bullets after police stormed his apartment.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"At the moment when a video probe was sent into the bathroom, the killer came out of the bathroom, firing with extreme violence," Interior Minister Claude Gueant said, adding that Mr Merah was firing several guns at once.

"In the end, Mohammed Merah jumped from the window with his gun in his hand, continuing to fire. He was found dead on the ground," he told reporters at the scene.

Two police commandos were wounded.

Special forces entered the five-storey building in a suburb of Toulouse after surrounding Mr Merah since early yesterday morning.

Mr Gueant said earlier police hoped to capture Mr Merah alive.

He had confessed to police negotiators to killing three soldiers as well as three Jewish children and a rabbi at a school.

President Nicolas Sarkozy had vowed justice would be done and urged people not to seek revenge.

There had been a long silence overnight from Mr Merah, who said he wanted to avenge the deaths of Palestinian children and French army involvement in Afghanistan.

"Despite renewed efforts all through the night to re-establish contact by voice and radio, there has been no contact, no showing from him," Mr Gueant said.

Mr Merah, a French citizen of Algerian origin who had been under intelligence surveillance for years, shot at police as they closed in on him in the early hours of Wednesday.

He later boasted to negotiators that he had brought France to its knees. He said his only regret was not having been able to carry out more killings.

[Strike For The South]

DIRTY DIRTY MUSLIMS

Where is my prize?

[PanzerJaeger]

What a way to go... out a window in a hail of gunfire. You've got to give it to AQ types, they know how to go out in dramatic fashion. Whether it be planes, trains, or automobiles, when your life’s goal is martyrdom, you can apparently come up with some whacky modi oporandi. Deep down I kind of hope my own demise will be equally as epic, although of course not proceeded by the killing of several innocent people.

[rvg]

Deep down I kind of hope my own demise will be equally as epic, although of course not proceeded by the killing of several innocent people.

Epic exits generally go together with dying young(ish). Screw that.

[gaelic cowboy]

Epic exits generally go together with dying young(ish). Screw that.

seconded

[Hax]

The government is islamist. They are trying to keep hardline islamists from power, but that doesn't mean that the government is secular. It is not.

Calling the FIS party hardline Islamists is actually really misguided, they have more in common with the Tunisian al-Nahda party or with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt than with the Islamic Jihad movement or the old Mujahideen-ê Ghalq in Iran.

So when you look at the kind of line the government has been utilising, of course they pander to the predominantly Muslim population, in fact, they're probably willing to call any law they pass as being consistent with Shari'a, which is actually a popular trend that has existed in the Islamic world for more than a hundred years now. Does this mean it's actually taken from the Qur'an? Not at all. You're confusing rhetoric and practice here.

[rvg]

Calling the FIS party hardline Islamists is actually really misguided, they have more in common with the Tunisian al-Nahda party or with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt than with the Islamic Jihad movement or the old Mujahideen-ê Ghalq in Iran.

So when you look at the kind of line the government has been utilising, of course they pander to the predominantly Muslim population, in fact, they're probably willing to call any law they pass as being consistent with Shari'a, which is actually a popular trend that has existed in the Islamic world for more than a hundred years now. Does this mean it's actually taken from the Qur'an? Not at all. You're confusing rhetoric and practice here.

I am calling GIA and GSPC hardline islamists. FIS is more or less part of the establishment. Still very much an islamist movement.

[Hax]

As I said, I think you're really confusing rhetoric and practice here. Of course the government will try to do its best to pander to that part of the population, they're not stupid. However, when you look at the way they're effectively controlling the country, there's virtually no trace of political Islamism there.

[HoreTore]

I am calling GIA and GSPC hardline islamists. FIS is more or less part of the establishment. Still very much an islamist movement.

Algeria's rise as an independent state was a part of a liberation wave that swept most the arab world in the 50's and 60's. It.s politial makeup was quite unique to the region. We had the Baath party, Nasserism, etc, and they all shared three main components. Firstly nationalism, in that they sought to create independent states, or in the case of pan-arabism, independent unions/blocs. Secondly, the anti-oppression aspect of socialism, as well as some form of protection to the poor. It's important to note that they were not at all marxist, Nasser sought "positive neutrality" in the cold war Thirdly, a positive stance towards religion, in that they did not seek to abolish it like the commies.

Labelling the ideologies that emerged in the arab world after the war simply "islamist" is a gross oversimplification, and quite simply wrong as well. Oh well, I'm sure that there are those who would happily call the Baath party, founded by a greek orthodox, islamist as well...

[rvg]

Algeria's rise as an independent state was a part of a liberation wave that swept most the arab world in the 50's and 60's. It.s politial makeup was quite unique to the region. We had the Baath party, Nasserism, etc, and they all shared three main components. Firstly nationalism, in that they sought to create independent states, or in the case of pan-arabism, independent unions/blocs. Secondly, the anti-oppression aspect of socialism, as well as some form of protection to the poor. It's important to note that they were not at all marxist, Nasser sought "positive neutrality" in the cold war Thirdly, a positive stance towards religion, in that they did not seek to abolish it like the commies.

Labelling the ideologies that emerged in the arab world after the war simply "islamist" is a gross oversimplification, and quite simply wrong as well. Oh well, I'm sure that there are those who would happily call the Baath party, founded by a greek orthodox, islamist as well...

Well, the thing is that I provided a link with the information on the Algerian legal system which looks rather blatantly islamist. All you're providing is an opinion....

[HoreTore]

Well, the thing is that I provided a link with the information on the Algerian legal system which looks rather blatantly islamist. All you're providing is an opinion....

I have no desire to debate with people who obsess with links. When discussing the politics of a given country after a specific claim has been made, I take it for granted that the people who engage in said debate already has the required pre-knowledge.

[rvg]

As I said, I think you're really confusing rhetoric and practice here. Of course the government will try to do its best to pander to that part of the population, they're not stupid. However, when you look at the way they're effectively controlling the country, there's virtually no trace of political Islamism there.

So... the Salafist Front for Preaching and Combat in your opinion is not an islamist organization? Alrighty then!

I have no desire to debate with people who obsess with links...

Especially when those links provide facts that invalidate your opinions.

[HoreTore]

Especially when those links provide facts that invalidate your opinions.

If you say so.

[rvg]

If you say so.

I just did.

[Fragony]

I have no desire to debate with people who obsess with links. When discussing the politics of a given country after a specific claim has been made, I take it for granted that the people who engage in said debate already has the required pre-knowledge.

Good for you, Nasser is an Egyptian by the way

[Major Robert Dump]

I like it how all the witty speculation dries up when the badguy turns out to be exactly what folks were hoping he wasn't for the sake of proving that others commit crimes just as bad as "those people."

[Brenus]

When you have a Christian Democrat Party, do we considered the country as a Christian Republic? I am not a lover of Islam (err, religions in general in fact) but because there are Muslim Parties it doesn't mean that the country is Islamic.
As the murderer who built his fantasy world around what he read in the Net, he is dead, a shame for his family and a burden for his co-religionists who are most of them atheist, and just follow the Islamic way as part of the family tradition.
You did notice that the ban of the burkha didn't result in a wave of emigration from France, nor mass demonstration or riots...
That is the answer to this stupid murderer, who got caught because he used his mother's computer and din't know how to switch off the GPS of the motorbike he has stolen to his first victim. I wonder what they are trained for, in Pakistan...
He will finish forgotten as Kelkhal, and only useful as temporary fertilizer for plants and food for bugs.