Things Strike Doesn't Understand About Modern Literature

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The size of the wall is aprox 700 ft, about 213 meters. According to wikipedia the longbow's range is between 165 to 228 m, also, "a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds" or 365 meters. Now, whether this is the same firing at a high angle at a tall target is unlikely, but by looking at those stats I think there is a fair chance a lightweight arrow could reach the archers on the wall and with a strong southward wind they may even be capable of piercing light chainmail. With enough archers firing I dont find it unlikely the wildlings could have gotten a few lucky killing shots in.

By "flight arrow" I assume they mean a "normal" arrow, but war arrows are heavier - the modern longbow has a draw weight of probably 60 pounds, but the historical one was double that and was using a comparatively heavy arrow in order to achieve penetrative power.

Physics eh?

Why do hang gliders jump off cliffs? Because cliffs are perpendicular to land causing the air to push up the cliff face creating an updraft. The wider the cliff and higher it goes in general the stronger the updraft.

I'm pretty sure only one Black Watch died on the top of the wall due to a unlucky arrow being carried up.

Most fiction is wrote at the speed of plot. Not all sci fi stands up to science... Warp speed, lazed swords, lasers beams that slowly track across the screen.

More near future stuff annoys me. Jurassic Park... I looked at how the pens were setup and the lack of redundant systems ie two sets of physical fences. Or the speed of DNA analysis in crime shows.

Anyhow unless it is inconsistent I normally don't get too worried about it.

As for pear shaped and slow ... Ever seen how fast Sumo wrestlers move, pivot and slap?

Still not convinced, especially about the Sumo part, what does a Sumo Wrestler look like next to a Saholin monk?

IT's also pretty explicit that the Night's Watch under fire atop the wall, the "fake" Watchemen they put up are full of arrows.

Actually it's only hard to draw a greatsword from the back if it is in an actual sheath. I always assumed it was simply strapped on to the back.

A fair point, but I'm fairly sure that they are "sheathed" and certainly "drawn", even strapped on it's not going to be a single smooth form as with a draw from the side.

Additionally GRRM is only a writer you cannot expect him to be flawless - while I may criticise some of his recent writing I wont criticise the world he has created for being "too unrealistic"

An interesting fact came up in a recent interview with the guys doing the Computer RPG - they regularly talk to GRRM and show him areas in the game to make sure it matches his vision of the area - when they showed him the Wall his first response was "Its too big!", they pointed out they had made it to his specification. GRRM's response was "I've made it too Big!!"

Right, so he made it way too big. The feeds into my argument though, he doesn't have a physical grip on the world he created, and given that I find the characters regularly flat (not all of them, admittedly) I think that's a serious issue.

[Greyblades]

By "flight arrow" I assume they mean a "normal" arrow, but war arrows are heavier - the modern longbow has a draw weight of probably 60 pounds, but the historical one was double that and was using a comparatively heavy arrow in order to achieve penetrative power.

True, but from what's seen of the nightswatch's armour in the TV series (as the books mention little about thier armour if I remember correctly), the average builder and steward didnt have much armour beyond leather, fur and the odd chainmail shirt, an arrow even a light one at long range can still probably penetrate such, and even then you do have to take into account the nightswatch's habit of not wearing any head protection beyond the odd leather cap. A lucky shot, even with a slow moving(relatively) light arrow, can still kill a man.

Right, so he made it way too big. The feeds into my argument though, he doesn't have a physical grip on the world he created, and given that I find the characters regularly flat (not all of them, admittedly) I think that's a serious issue.

Aye, its an issue but there's still enough good characters to keep me interested. Even if he does insist on killing the villianous characters in rather lacklustre ways (I'm looking at you Joffrey and Tywin!)

[Arjos]

IT's also pretty explicit that the Night's Watch under fire atop the wall, the "fake" Watchemen they put up are full of arrows.

Pretty sure that was during the assault on Castle Black from south of the Wall...
All the fire was at the stairs and towers, way below the top...

As Papewaio pointed out, in the attack from the northern side, arrows barely reached the men and only one managed to kill by happenstance...

forging of Valarian steel. The blades have ripples in them because of the latteral folds as the blade is forged, this has been stated by Martin

He also stated how spells and magic were an integral part of the process...
If you can't accept a "fantasy license", then yes the reforging is bogus :)

the seasons: nice idea but we have heard nothing about a magical or scientific mechanisims which cause it, nor how the people survive the long seasons. This isn't just a problem in Winter, but in Summer also, because many plants need a cylce to both grow and ripen, without seasonal rains and sunshine followed by a winter in which the land lies fallow the crops will fails, and the land itself will die.

In the North there are glass gardens...
By reading how they are preparing for the incoming winter, is apparent that it's more a matter of latitude: for example Essos is able to export great quantities of crops, seems like during winter aswell...
Overall, there are shorter seasons within the "main" ones or phases with precipitations, I think the maesters keep track and inform when to plant or leave the soil to recover...

But really it's fiction :P

[Sir Moody]

The book does mention Night Watch armour in a few places - its mostly ill fitting and old fur and leather with a few exceptions (mostly nobles who brought their own armour when they arrived) - its often described as barely holding together and at several points it is suggested they don't have enough to supply all the watch.

A point on the arrows - the fight was against a disorganised mass of tribesmen - its likely the Wildlings were using the same arrows they would have used in peace time - these were not likely to be War Arrows

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Pretty sure that was during the assault on Castle Black from south of the Wall...
All the fire was at the stairs and towers, way below the top...

As Papewaio pointed out, in the attack from the northern side, arrows barely reached the men and only one managed to kill by happenstance...

I could check the book, but I'm pretty sure they set dummies atop the Wall, and they were full of arrows.

He also stated how spells and magic were an integral part of the process...
If you can't accept a "fantasy license", then yes the reforging is bogus :)

The point is, he's gone, "ooooh this is a cool way to forge a sword..." then just ignored what that means. It isn't a huge issue by itself, but lots of these little issue add up. The kingguard jousting is scale shits is another example, because even a blunt lance could collapse your chest if you aren't wearing a breastplate.

In the North there are glass gardens...
By reading how they are preparing for the incoming winter, is apparent that it's more a matter of latitude: for example Essos is able to export great quantities of crops, seems like during winter aswell...
Overall, there are shorter seasons within the "main" ones or phases with precipitations, I think the maesters keep track and inform when to plant or leave the soil to recover...

But really it's fiction :P

I'm not saying it can't be explained, but there is never any explanation, we know the world works according to scientific laws because the maestors are scientists and they mostly have a grip of things. I'm also not convinced about the "micro" seasons, as, again, that's never said or really implied - I think your mind just rtys to fill the blank.

The book does mention Night Watch armour in a few places - its mostly ill fitting and old fur and leather with a few exceptions (mostly nobles who brought their own armour when they arrived) - its often described as barely holding together and at several points it is suggested they don't have enough to supply all the watch.

A point on the arrows - the fight was against a disorganised mass of tribesmen - its likely the Wildlings were using the same arrows they would have used in peace time - these were not likely to be War Arrows

They most likely are war arrows, the Wildlings are always at war. If they aren't war arrows they aren't likely to penetrate armour at extreme range, given that even a heavy clothyard had trouble historically. I'm also not convinced they don't have enough armour, the Watch are generally described as wearing a "halfhelm" and mail, as well as sometimes a breastplate. How worn down the armour is is open to question, but as soon as they arrived all the new recruits were issued full gear, mail, helm, sword, and they had enough to ruin a mail shirt by cutting it open to fit Sam.

How Sam remains so defiantly fat is another mystery to me.

[Greyblades]

They most likely are war arrows, the Wildlings are always at war. If they aren't war arrows they aren't likely to penetrate armour at extreme range, given that even a heavy clothyard had trouble historically. I'm also not convinced they don't have enough armour, the Watch are generally described as wearing a "halfhelm" and mail, as well as sometimes a breastplate. How worn down the armour is is open to question, but as soon as they arrived all the new recruits were issued full gear, mail, helm, sword, and they had enough to ruin a mail shirt by cutting it open to fit Sam.

How Sam remains so defiantly fat is another mystery to me.

I do believe its because food is one of the only things the nightswatch aren't short on, they do have huge ice storehouses under the wall after all and seeing as sam is a mere steward he's not required to run around regularly enough for major weight loss. Though I would think he'd have lost some pounds after the fist of the first men battle.
As for the arrows I think mance rayder, as an ex nightwatchman, would know that war arrows wouldnt reach the of of the wall so I would be inclined to think that he would order the wildlings to use lighter arrows, presumably they would have a lot of them considering a wildling would have to hunt for food. With a few thousand arrows whistling over the wall and its not hard to believe that the odd arrow would find an unshielded face or neck.

[The Stranger]

You read fantasy books and you end up thinking mining on asteroids is feaseble, the founding fathers were mouthpeices for equality, and Columbus thought the earth was flat

strike hates entertainment...

[Arjos]

I'm not saying it can't be explained, but there is never any explanation ... I think your mind just rtys to fill the blank.

I was recalling events mentioned in the books like the Year of the False Spring or short autumns etc...
How regular and how often they occur, we don't know...

As for the explaination, I read an interview or was an extract on westeros.org, where GRRM said it will be revealed at the end of the story. It must be pretty important to the plot or something...

[Kagemusha]

Talk about offtopic...Philips​, is everything ok? First the kebabs, then the supporting of the other team, now SOIAF. Whats next?

[Beskar]

I believe the world is explained by the presence of two suns. This is why there are seasons within seasons such as summer snows'

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I do believe its because food is one of the only things the nightswatch aren't short on, they do have huge ice storehouses under the wall after all and seeing as sam is a mere steward he's not required to run around regularly enough for major weight loss. Though I would think he'd have lost some pounds after the fist of the first men battle.
As for the arrows I think mance rayder, as an ex nightwatchman, would know that war arrows wouldnt reach the of of the wall so I would be inclined to think that he would order the wildlings to use lighter arrows, presumably they would have a lot of them considering a wildling would have to hunt for food. With a few thousand arrows whistling over the wall and its not hard to believe that the odd arrow would find an unshielded face or neck.

You're stretching to support the points. Mance Rayder would also know the the Watch go armoured and mere hunting arrows would not penetrate at extreme range. As to Sam, even if he bigs out as a Steward, he spent longer as a recruit, being made to run and fight and wear armour. Again, Martin has created a physically absurd charater who, frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you have to make stretches or justify something you're already on a losing wicket. Look what's being said in this thread, "oh that arrow was caught by an updraft" or "they're only light arrows".

Martin's world doesn't make sense.

I believe the world is explained by the presence of two suns. This is why there are seasons within seasons such as summer snows'

Except that they only have one day-night cycle and the seasons don't appear to be remotely regular, the more likely explanation is that Westeros is in the Northern Hemisphere and the lands of "Everwinter" are polar while "Eversummer" are equitorial and the fluctuations have to do with the stirrings of the others, i.e. magic. I can totally get behind that, just like I can get behind Coldhands retaining his soul because he took his vows before the Old Gods (this begs the question of whether the New Gods actually exist).

The problem is that even taking into account what Arjos says, there don't appear to be yearly "micro seasons", which there should be.

My problem with Martin is not one thing, it's this accumulation of things: the world, the combat, the naff breaking of Ice, the flat secondary characters, the habit of introducing interesting characters and killing them off when he could have introduced them a book earlier and actually written some of those scenes he references...

Above all though, it is the bleeding obvious ending and the feeling that rather than the plot and characters building up to that, they are being whittled away to make space for it.

Example: Ned had to die not just to precipitate a war but because Ned would have taken the North to Deanarys, just like his ancestor took it to Aegon.

[Greyblades]

Ok then rational method. I thought it would be a good idea to read through the battle again, Chapter 64 of storm of swords says:

'The wildling archers shot as they advanced: they would dash forward, stop, loose, then run another ten yards. There were so many that the air was constantly full of arrows, all following woefully short. A waste, Jon thought. Thier want of discipline is showing. The smaller horn-and-wood bows of the free folk were outranged by the great yew longbows of the Night's Watch, and the wildlings were trying to shoot at men several hundred feet above them. "Let them shoot," Jon said. "Wait. Hold." Thier cloaks were flapping behind them. "The wind is in our faces, it will cost us range. Wait."'

So with that we know there was a strong southernly wind on at least the first day costing the nightwatchmen range and presumably giving range to the wildlings, and yet:

'Wildling arrows were striking the wall now, a hundred feet below them.'

There's no mention of a hail of arrows reaching the top just the occasional one or two so presumably through out the entire offensive the majority of arrows fell short. By that point there was only one casualty amoung the watch: Spare Boot's wooden leg.

At chapter 69 as the battle had been ongoing for multiple days with one casualty: Red alyn caught an arrow in his leg and fell off the wall.
Later it said 'From time to time an arrow would sail past overhead, but he had learned to ignore those. The range was long and the angle was bad, the chances of being hit was small.'

With this Martin is aknowledging that it was unlikely to hit anyone on the top of this 200+meter wall.

I read the rest up to the point that thorne took command and there were no other deaths to arrows. So with that the result is one death, one inconvienienced amputee and at most 4 arrows in each hay watchman.

In conclusion I surmise that with Martin saying the majority of arrows falling short, and the ones hiting the top only managing to hit two men and not even killing one from direct damage, the scenario isnt all that Jarring. There were presumably 10's of thousands of arrows shot up by horn-and-wood bows with an aerodynamic advantage and only a handful reached them, which I do believe is in a reasonable amount of flukes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok then rational method. I thought it would be a good idea to read through the battle again, Chapter 64 of storm of swords says:

'The wildling archers shot as they advanced: they would dash forward, stop, loose, then run another ten yards. There were so many that the air was constantly full of arrows, all following woefully short. A waste, Jon thought. Thier want of discipline is showing. The smaller horn-and-wood bows of the free folk were outranged by the great yew longbows of the Night's Watch, and the wildlings were trying to shoot at men several hundred feet above them. "Let them shoot," Jon said. "Wait. Hold." Thier cloaks were flapping behind them. "The wind is in our faces, it will cost us range. Wait."'

So with that we know there was a strong southernly wind on at least the first day costing the nightwatchmen range and presumably giving range to the wildlings, and yet:

'Wildling arrows were striking the wall now, a hundred feet below them.'

There's no mention of a hail of arrows reaching the top just the occasional one or two so presumably through out the entire offensive the majority of arrows fell short. By that point there was only one casualty amoung the watch: Spare Boot's wooden leg.

At chapter 69 as the battle had been ongoing for multiple days with one casualty: Red alyn caught an arrow in his leg and fell off the wall.
Later it said 'From time to time an arrow would sail past overhead, but he had learned to ignore those. The range was long and the angle was bad, the chances of being hit was small.'

With this Martin is aknowledging that it was unlikely to hit anyone on the top of this 200+meter wall.

I read the rest up to the point that thorne took command and there were no other deaths to arrows. So with that the result is one death, one inconvienienced amputee and at most 4 arrows in each hay watchman.

In conclusion I surmise that with Martin saying the majority of arrows falling short, and the ones hiting the top only managing to hit two men and not even killing one from direct damage, the scenario isnt all that Jarring. There were presumably 10's of thousands of arrows shot up by horn-and-wood bows with an aerodynamic advantage and only a handful reached them, which I do believe is in a reasonable amount of flukes.

The implication is that arrows are sailing over the wall even with these "horn and wood" bows, which Martin identifies as of less power than the Watch's longbows. Assuming Martin is thinking of a simple selfbow/shortbow he's concieving of a weapon with about half to two thirds the power of a longbow, but John seems to think the Watch's bows could reach that distance upwards.

Remember, it's not 210 metres and change, it's that plus the diagonal from however far away from the wall they are. So when're falling short during the advance they're probably shooting from closer to 400 metres upwards. Remember also that a lot of a bow's range comes from loosing the arrow upwards, i.e. it gains it's range from the parabolic trajectory, but when you are shooting at a target very much above you, then you are denied that mechanism to increase your range.

Mount and Blade does a pretty good simulation of this - as the attacker you need to be within ~50 metres to get penetrating hits, and the arrows travel relatively slowly; as the defender you can hit your enemy from much greater range, and your arrows travel to the target faster. On the other hand, it's comparatively easy to range your taget when shooting upwards within that close range but hitting targets below you is harder because you have to calculate the elevation.

So I stand by my point, the top of the Wall is a safe place to be, so much so that the Watch could do the naked conga along it and not have to worry, except about frostbite.

[Greyblades]

Yes I concede that the top of the wall is the safest place they could be besides castle black, but I still think there's some plausability, Martin basically tells us there was little to no chance of getting hit, yet I believe there's always the random chance of an arrow getting lucky enough that it goes over the wall and amoung those there are going to be some who are so lucky they hit something And considering the size of mance's army I think there was ample oppertunity for the miracle shot. As for the velocity, the only case of a kill from it in the chapters is a guy who was unlucky enough to fall off the side of a structure made of ice because of the impact. Seeing as the passage say's Red Alyn was "Caught in the leg" it's unknown if it penetrated his leg or gave it a somewhat hard whack. The real question is, with such odds, why mance bothered to send out archers at all, thought that might be the same reason the wildlings attacked with charriots and mammoths the first time when the only attack point is a tunnel.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes I concede that the top of the wall is the safest place they could be besides castle black, but I still think there's some plausability, Martin basically tells us there was little to no chance of getting hit, yet I believe there's always the random chance of an arrow getting lucky enough that it goes over the wall and amoung those there are going to be some who are so lucky they hit something And considering the size of mance's army I think there was ample oppertunity for the miracle shot. As for the velocity, the only case of a kill from it in the chapters is a guy who was unlucky enough to fall off the side of a structure made of ice because of the impact. Seeing as the passage say's Red Alyn was "Caught in the leg" it's unknown if it penetrated his leg or gave it a somewhat hard whack. The real question is, with such odds, why mance bothered to send out archers at all, thought that might be the same reason the wildlings attacked with charriots and mammoths the first time when the only attack point is a tunnel.

I'm sorry, I don't think there's any chance, all the arrows should hit the wall a hundred feet short at best, I wouldn't even expect them to do half that.

Here's another brain teaser: How can a 14 year old wear full plate as Rob does?

21 is the historic age of majority for a very good reason.

[Kagemusha]

I'm sorry, I don't think there's any chance, all the arrows should hit the wall a hundred feet short at best, I wouldn't even expect them to do half that.

Here's another brain teaser: How can a 14 year old wear full plate as Rob does?

21 is the historic age of majority for a very good reason.

No its not.In majority of cultures including European becoming of age for males has been around 15-16 years, 21 is isolated occurance and to be honest very strange. If you can go to war, vote and drive a automobile, why cant you drink alcohol or go to clubs?

[The Stranger]

hahaha its funny that this thread turned into exactly what Strike didnt want it to turn into, a GRMM fest...

[Monk]

4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

]

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No its not.In majority of cultures including European becoming of age for males has been around 15-16 years, 21 is isolated occurance and to be honest very strange. If you can go to war, vote and drive a automobile, why cant you drink alcohol or go to clubs?

Yes it is, a very good reason - it has to do with wearing heavy armour.

21 is the historic age of majority in much of Europe because it was the age at which you could fight in war in your own right, instead of by proxy.

[The Stranger]

and it has something to do with your brains...

[Sir Moody]

Yes it is, a very good reason - it has to do with wearing heavy armour.

21 is the historic age of majority in much of Europe because it was the age at which you could fight in war in your own right, instead of by proxy.

nope - historically boys were trained for war as young as 7 as Pages - at around 14 they would become Squires who would fight in battles - at 21 they would become full knights.

There are accounts of Squires being promoted to Knights due to heroism in combat before the age of 21.

Squires would be trained in the same armour as the Knights and would use the armour in combat

you seem to be confusing the use of full plate with the rank of Knight - Knights were not the only ones who would wear it in fact by the late Medieval period even some footmen (low born soldiers) wore full plate

[Greyblades]

I'm sorry, I don't think there's any chance, all the arrows should hit the wall a hundred feet short at best, I wouldn't even expect them to do half that.

Ok, I disagree but I respect that.

Here's another brain teaser: How can a 14 year old wear full plate as Rob does?

21 is the historic age of majority for a very good reason.

Custom made armour, I would expect the king of the north would be able to afford to have armour made specifically for his build and as the commander he probably didnt have to fight as long as the rest of his knights so he didnt get as fatigued.

[rajpoot]

21 is the historic age of majority in much of Europe because it was the age at which you could fight in war in your own right, instead of by proxy.

?!!

Medieval armies did not have a minimum age requirement. Long as you could fight, nothing else mattered.
And wasn't Richard Lionheart shot by a kid toting a crossbow?

[The Stranger]

ye and what is up with that valerian steel. i smell hax. i mean hes not trying to explain that scientifically i mean whats the logical explanation there... witchcraft? i mean realzzZzzz

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

nope - historically boys were trained for war as young as 7 as Pages - at around 14 they would become Squires who would fight in battles - at 21 they would become full knights.

There are accounts of Squires being promoted to Knights due to heroism in combat before the age of 21.

Squires would be trained in the same armour as the Knights and would use the armour in combat

you seem to be confusing the use of full plate with the rank of Knight - Knights were not the only ones who would wear it in fact by the late Medieval period even some footmen (low born soldiers) wore full plate

Ok, I disagree but I respect that.

Custom made armour, I would expect the king of the north would be able to afford to have armour made specifically for his build and as the commander he probably didnt have to fight as long as the rest of his knights so he didnt get as fatigued.

?!!

Medieval armies did not have a minimum age requirement. Long as you could fight, nothing else mattered.
And wasn't Richard Lionheart shot by a kid toting a crossbow?

OK guys - come on, Sir Moody has it right but missed the point.

You can't fight a knight until you are 21 because you can't match him in heavy armour, so you can't fight for yourself.

The point is, at 14 Rob is far to young to be able to wear full plate and fight, Sir Loras at 16 likewise. Those painting you see of boy-Kings have them in fake armour much thinner than the real thing - that's fine for Joffrey playing soldier but it would put Rob or Sir Loras in a position to have their chests caved in.

[rajpoot]

Why do you think that a person had to be 21 to wear full plate?!
Granted that some of the suits were prohibitively heavy, but a tough 16-17 year old can carry as much weight as any man.
Furthermore on average full plate suits weighed between 15-25 kgs. Which isn't all that heavy if it's distributed all over your body.

[The Stranger]

but how do you explain the dragons!??!?!!?!?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think some people missed the tiny fact that the genre is called fantasy. I suggest you start getting some of them sprinkles at the Peter Pan store...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why do you think that a person had to be 21 to wear full plate?!
Granted that some of the suits were prohibitively heavy, but a tough 16-17 year old can carry as much weight as any man.
Furthermore on average full plate suits weighed between 15-25 kgs. Which isn't all that heavy if it's distributed all over your body.

Oh no, it was much heavier than that: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14203621

You start at 7, and after 14 years you have sufficient condition to fight in the stuff for extended periods. A "tough 16-17 year old" cannot carry as much as a soldier for as long - you only have to look at the soldiers in modern armies, the 18 year old infantrymen are noticably smaller than their NCO's, especially accross the shoulders. It's worth noting that pretty much no one today can fight in full plate effectively for more than about 10-20 minutes tops before they are exhausted, just like there is no Englishman alive able to draw a fullsize warbow.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

but how do you explain the dragons!??!?!!?!?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think some people missed the tiny fact that the genre is called fantasy. I suggest you start getting some of them sprinkles at the Peter Pan store...

Explain to me how Rob armour is spelled to make it lighter but stronger and I'll happily shut up. As it is, so far as we have been lead to believe, it was made by a mundane smith at Winterfell.

[The Stranger]

i see you still havent been to the peter pan shop...