Historical Battle Re-Enactment Revival

[gamegeek2]

OK, and can we also do a real re-enactment of a battle? That way we can have someone create an actual movie of the battle and we can have an official EB historical battle video! (We could conscript vartan for his movie editing skills or I could try to learn).

I'll post my army suggestions for Arausio in the OP, as of right now they are not finished

[Arjos]

Good idea for the Leukanoi (forgot about them last time :P), but the reformed heavy cavalry imo it's too early, could accept them as wealthy Uolkai and other danubian Keltoi though, but such addition, should cut down the Brihentin...
The "local" assistance was from recently settled tribes in the Alps, kinsmen to eastern germanics; they would have nobility fighting as heavy infantry rather than cavalry...

The bulk of the cavalry should come from Bohemia and the Danube basin, but shouldn't be too wealthy: the Bouiroi did repel the Cimbri and partially absorbed them (employing them against the Skordiskoi)...

[-Stormrage-]

Good idea for the Leukanoi (forgot about them last time :P), but the reformed heavy cavalry imo it's too early, could accept them as wealthy Uolkai and other danubian Keltoi though, but such addition, should cut down the Brihentin...
The "local" assistance was from recently settled tribes in the Alps, kinsmen to eastern germanics; they would have nobility fighting as heavy infantry rather than cavalry...

The bulk of the cavalry should come from Bohemia and the Danube basin, but shouldn't be too wealthy: the Bouiroi did repel the Cimbri and partially absorbed them (employing them against the Skordiskoi)...

huuh? you guys have way to much time on your hands.

[Arjos]

Lovely...

Another thing I overlooked, this was after the Lex Militaris, so we might actually put only principes as roman infantry...
On the same note, imo you've put too many triarii, polybian ones already were halved, but by the late 2nd century BC there wasn't much difference in equipment, rather only in names...
As for the "personal guards", extraordinarii are fine (standing in for the elite consular entourage), but I'm not convinced by the milites: first both units together make a far too big number for such an elite force; second Samnites had quite a rough history by then, as relations with Roma, last thing I'd expect from any senator, would be to surround himself with highly rebellious soldiers...
The hastati samnitici are fine representing any latin, sabellian, italic community...

[gamegeek2]

Good idea for the Leukanoi (forgot about them last time :P), but the reformed heavy cavalry imo it's too early, could accept them as wealthy Uolkai and other danubian Keltoi though, but such addition, should cut down the Brihentin...
The "local" assistance was from recently settled tribes in the Alps, kinsmen to eastern germanics; they would have nobility fighting as heavy infantry rather than cavalry...

The bulk of the cavalry should come from Bohemia and the Danube basin, but shouldn't be too wealthy: the Bouiroi did repel the Cimbri and partially absorbed them (employing them against the Skordiskoi)...

And from whence was this idea, that "reformed" heavy cavalry (a misleading term in itself) are not suitable to this context, spawned? It's notable that the Jutland Peninsula was one of the most Celticized parts of all of North Germania and that cavalry traditions were quite strong there.

How the heck would tribes in the Alps be kin to Eastern Germanic peoples? At this time the Eastern Germanic peoples lived in what is now Scandinavia and on the island of Gotland. Besides, any proper kin to Eastern Germanic folk would have their nobility armed as mainly heavy horse, as this was one of the famed traditions of the Goths. But since they aren't east Germanic, your point may have some validity.

[Arjos]

And from whence was this idea, that "reformed" heavy cavalry (a misleading term in itself)

Just used it, because it's from the EB reform for the Swebozez...

How the heck would tribes in the Alps be kin to Eastern Germanic peoples?

By eastern I meant Prussia, Poland, Pomerania, etc those areas...
Baltic was the proper term I should've used, sorry :P

Besides, any proper kin to Eastern Germanic folk would have their nobility armed as mainly heavy horse, as this was one of the famed traditions of the Goths.

That's actually only after they got in contact with the Sauromatae...

[Vlixes]

Verstehen Sie Deutsch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9XKqwQj2C0

[Arjos]

This is my revised one:

Romani

Gnaeus Mallius Maximus (farther roman force)

1 Eqvites Consvlares (general unit)
1 polybian Eqvites Romani
1 Curepos
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii
2 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Pedites Extraordinarii

Allied Mallius (farther roman force)

1 Liguriae Epos
1 Toxotai
1 Accensi
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii (general unit)
1 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Iphikratous Hoplitai

Quintus Servilius Caepio (hither roman force)

1 Eqvites Consvlares (general unit)
1 polybian Eqvites Romani
1 Curepos
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii
2 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Pedites Extraordinarii

Allied Caepio (hither roman force)

1 Liguriae Epos
1 Toxotai
1 Accensi
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii (general unit)
1 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Iphikratous Hoplitai

Swebozez

Tigurini - Arverni (left)

1 Mori Gaesum (general unit)
4 Gaeroas (1 chevron)
4 Gaisolitho Aljod (1 chevron)
2 Botroas (1 chevron)
4 Teceitos
1 Brihentin
2 Leuce Epos
1 Sotaroas
1 Iaosatae

Boiorix (center left)

1 Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (general unit)
1 Dreugolōzez Brunjādoi
1 Xerunoudōzez
4 Dugundiz
4 Druxtiz Goudiskā (1 chevron)
2 Jugundiz (1 chevron)
2 Sloxonez (1 chevron)
1 Marxolitho Wolxiskod
2 Reidonez
1 Skudjonez
1 Iaosatae

Theudobod (center right)

1 Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (general unit)
1 Dreugolōzez Brunjādoi
1 Xerunoudōzez
4 Dugundiz
4 Druxtiz Goudiskā (1 chevron)
2 Jugundiz (1 chevron)
2 Sloxonez (1 chevron)
1 Marxolitho Wolxiskod
2 Reidonez
1 Skudjonez
1 Iaosatae

Ambrones (right)

1 Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (general unit)
2 Xerunoudōzez
3 Dugundiz
3 Gaisolitho Aljod (1 chevron)
3 Gaisofulxo Frijod (1 chevron)
2 Jugundiz (1 chevron)
2 Sloxonez (1 chevron)
2 Reidonez
1 Skudjonez
1 Iaosatae

Each tribe represent the leadership in the major components of the migration, but their armies are composed by all the communities who could and were present at the battle...

[vartan]

OK, and can we also do a real re-enactment of a battle? That way we can have someone create an actual movie of the battle and we can have an official EB historical battle video! (We could conscript vartan for his movie editing skills or I could try to learn).

I'll post my army suggestions for Arausio in the OP, as of right now they are not finished

What do you mean "real" reenactment? Isn't that what you guys have been doing with the previous HBs? Meaning you have been playing them such that the maneuvers and eventually results were as near to actual events as you could have? Or did you guys play to see which team won fair and square?

[Arjos]

What do you mean "real" reenactment? Isn't that what you guys have been doing with the previous HBs? Meaning you have been playing them such that the maneuvers and eventually results were as near to actual events as you could have? Or did you guys play to see which team won fair and square?

We started with the same deployment, generals and compositions, but then let the players have a free hand on the tactical manouvers...
Magnesia ended up being quite similar to the real one though :P

[Arjos]

BTW found this to further the Ambrones - Worgōzez choice:

Ambrones praedationibus se suosque alere coeperunt ... ex quo tractum est, ut turpis vitae homines Ambrones dicerentur.

Basically they were such plunderers and robbers that their name started to be used to define those actions...
They were as so called "men of a bad life"...

[gamegeek2]

Why does this further the choice of heath-dwelling savages as "leaders" of a war-band of 10,000? If anything such men are less prone to plunder as they would generally disregard material wealth except for weapons. Professional warriors on the other hand thrived off plunder, and would re-equip themselves with its riches. The leaders of warbands were charismatic chiefs surrounded by professional retainers. Think the Saxons surrounded by their Heorthegeneatas and Housecarls, or a Slavic lord and his Druzhina.

[Arjos]

But they were following the Cimbri and the Teutones in the first place...
They are described as a smaller, highly aggressive group, migrating along the major tribes and then are described as plunderers above anything else...

What makes them so wealthy or able to secure resources, when they lived without any particular geographical isolation and heavily outnumbered by other tribes?
Plus the 30.000 mentioned are the whole combatants of the tribe, surely the "leading" band would have been way smaller than a third...
I can't see how they could have afforded such equipment, nor in such numbers...

Anyway what's "savage" about the Worgōzez? They are making do with what they can get their hands on, just like the Ambrones would have...
Does their condition makes them less accustomed to warfare than professionals? It's not like they are working the land most of the time, if anything they might have been engaged in military operations even more often...

Professional warriors on the other hand thrived off plunder, and would re-equip themselves with its riches.

And what puts them outside that category? As I said in hama, due to the unit variety we have, do not consider them as outcasts, but simply warriors with less "state" resources...
Aggressiveness and guerrilla tactics most likely were the only way for a relatively smaller community to retain their identity...

[gamegeek2]

The forests of Germania, dense and expansive are home to all sorts of wild and dangerous beasts, including those of the human variety. Wargōzez, whose name can also mean "Wolves," or "Outlaws" are predatory Indo-European warriors who are outcasts from regular society sometimes as exiles and criminals, sometimes by choice, and oftentimes young men seeking to prove themselves in accordance to extremely ancient customs. These men live deep within the woods that shield and blanket Germania, an ideal enviroment for hiding and preserving all sorts of ancient traditions, untainted by external forces and influences now becoming more and more commonplace in Germania via trade and military expansion. They fend for themselves in this harsh and unforgiving enviroment much in the same way as the wild beasts, so feared and respected they are sometimes emulated throughout Germania and indeed Europe as a whole.

They use equipment and tools that will understandably become more and more makeshift as time goes on as the more common utensils from societies left behind begin to fade, wear and break. These men look after themselves, living out a true and ancient ideal of self sufficency and independance seen throughout the Ancient world and likely drawing its origins from a Proto-IndoEuropean tradition and possibly even prehistoric, pre-IndoEuropean traditions.

Living in small groups made up of individuals from all over the class spectrum, for all sorts of reasons, these young men will have spent many years surviving in the wilderness and will have as a consequence become very vicious, efficient and arguably quite mentally ill due to their isolation from regular society. What sets these men apart from other wild men who undoubtably existed in Europe for a very long time, is their use of wolf symbolism.

The wolf is a proud, vicious and cunning pack hunter animal, an expert at survival, whose striking aesthetic and haunting howls will have understandably captured the imagination of man since the moment they encountered the beast for the first time. So it is no surprise that over time perhaps through superstition, perhaps through an understanding of the power of psychology on the battlefield or perhaps for simple camoflage and practicality, that men would don the skins of wolves and attempt to emulate these fierce beasts on the battlefield, altering their aesthetic and also their mental state to give themselves an edge in combat.These packs of man-wolves are outrageously vicious and aggressive in combat, stalking their prey through the trees and tall grass before choosing to make their attack, howling and roaring as they make their presence known on the battlefield. They swiftly charge towards their enemies with their weapons trained on their opponents faces, necks and limbs, perhaps after hurling a devestating volley of javelins whose accuracy will have become impeccable from years of hunting to survive. After combat the more peculiar and perhaps disturbing habits of these men can be witnessed in the drinking of the blood of enemies, perhaps even their own blood, possibly cannibalism, self mutilation, and of course: howling.

It is not surprising to learn that these very ancient style warriors will have gained the attention and respect of wealthy Germanic lords, and later on Roman Emperors (such as Trajan) who would seek to hire and use these men to fight their enemies and expand their territories.

Of course, it comes at a price, such individualisitc warriors will not work for just anyone, they will expect good pay and one will have to venture deep into the forests of Germania to find them, risking ambushes from all sorts of potential enemies as one travels, however, once located and hired, these terrifying mercenaries could be exactly what an ambitious Emperor, King or Warlord requires in order to successfully expand his or her borders or defeat his or her foes

Now, would this be a group of leaders? More like a group of wild mercenary savages. And by the way the term "state resources" makes no sense in this context. Soldiers were equipped by the chief that they served and/or themselves. These Worgozez have no leader and answer to nobody except those who pay them enough. A migrating army probably won't be wasting its resources buying mercenaries...