The Elephant in the room.

[Kralizec]

Wouldn't this whole absurd debate we all know the answer to come to a swift end were we able to produce some examples of muslim men raping uslim women in manners that do not include family honor/debt type incidents. Like, how many incidents in the UK are there where muslim men rape muslim women for the sake of jollies?

I don't think there are any stats that can answer your question. But assuming your point is: "are muslims less inclined to rape a muslim woman than a native European?"

There's no doubt in my mind that these people, or more probably their parents, originate from a backwards culture. Pakistan presumably has evolved socially since they left, but that went by them completely because they don't live there, and since they didn't integrate into their new country's culture very well, they essentially fossilized into the backwardsness they were in when they left their country of origin. I say that because this pretty much applies to the Dutch-Turkish community - quite often they came from the most underdeveloped parts of Turkey; and while Turkey nowadays is the poster-child for the "islamic countries can be civilized, too" argument, some of our ethnically turkish population is significantly less "enlightened" than that (allthough to their credit, Turks in the Netherlands generally cause less trouble than Morrocans)

No doubt that the pedophiles in the OP didn't respect women, or girls very much. But then again, I doubt that rapists and/or pedophiles in general do. They specifically targeted white girls, which to me suggests that either:
A) they thought that Allah would send them to hell for raping an underage muslim girl out of wedlock, but thought that doing the same to white non-muslim girls would be halal
B) girls from their own ethnic background are less available and more difficult to groom
C) they feared social backlash and stigma if they did this to their "own community", and thought that police attention was less likely if they targeted white girls
Personally I'm guessing a combination of B and C.

In any case, apart from how terrible this incident is, most of the outrage here seems to be at the as-of-yet unsubstantiated claim that the police decided years ago they shouldn't investigate this case because they feared someone might cry "racist!". I'm no fan of the so called multicultural ideology, but I simply don't buy that accusation when there's nothing to back that up.

[Kadagar_AV]

MRD, that is not fair.

A muslim girl can, as I have understood it, not be raped.

If she has sex with someone she should not, it just means that the men responsible for her hasn't been controlling/protecting her enough, no?

[Major Robert Dump]

MRD, that is not fair.

A muslim girl can, as I have understood it, not be raped.

If she has sex with someone she should not, it just means that the men responsible for her hasn't been controlling/protecting her enough, no?

On one hand, yes, and if there are muslim-on-muslim rapes (that dont involve honer/revenge) then many of them don't get reported. I am leaving out the honor/revenge rapes because in most cases a non-muslim would not be a victim of such a thing so we remove it from the argument altogether since it is, in some cirlces, socially acceptable to punish women in this manner.

So yes, this can be considered a valid point, however, not every victim of muslim-on-muslim rape is going to come from a hard-line family that would keep it hush, and even if they did, I am sure there would be girls who depart from their family on these matters....

My point is that surely there are some examples of muslim men raping muslim women. There has to be in order to facilitate the idea that the victims in the OP crime were not chosen based on race/culture. I don't for a second by that it was just because they were easier victims to isolate. While this may be true, these guys also know that if they rape a muslim they would never even amke it to trial, and they have a fear of god that does not extend to victimizing infidels.

Show me the muslim rapes

[Kadagar_AV]

Word.

I was just strengthening your point

[Major Robert Dump]

I know. And I was stating that even with the cultural taboo of rape, some muslim girl somewhere in that country has to have had reported a rape at the hands of a muslim aggressor..... surely. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going on

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I know. And I was stating that even with the cultural taboo of rape, some muslim girl somewhere in that country has to have had reported a rape at the hands of a muslim aggressor..... surely. Otherwise, it is obvious what is going on

They just get labled sluts and married off - there have been a few women who have subsequently come forward under condition of anonymity.

[Ironside]

But... Backward tradition and religion, isn't that kind of the same thing?

The secular Iranians who came to Sweden during the cultural revolution has done well here, the muslim Iranians who has come lately - not so much.

And how many of those sucular Iranians are Muslim enough to be insulted by being bundled together with some backward tribalists?

Religion in those regions are also some kind of halfway thing. Rather than being very religious, they're being religious because they haven't experienced anything else. The real fundamentalists are a different breed, even if they can recruit easiest from those regions.

No doubt that the pedophiles in the OP didn't respect women, or girls very much. But then again, I doubt that rapists and/or pedophiles in general do. They specifically targeted white girls, which to me suggests that either:
A) they thought that Allah would send them to hell for raping an underage muslim girl out of wedlock, but thought that doing the same to white non-muslim girls would be halal
B) girls from their own ethnic background are less available and more difficult to groom
C) they feared social backlash and stigma if they did this to their "own community", and thought that police attention was less likely if they targeted white girls
Personally I'm guessing a combination of B and C.

In any case, apart from how terrible this incident is, most of the outrage here seems to be at the as-of-yet unsubstantiated claim that the police decided years ago they shouldn't investigate this case because they feared someone might cry "racist!". I'm no fan of the so called multicultural ideology, but I simply don't buy that accusation when there's nothing to back that up.

It has rather to do with excusing themself with madonna and whore mechanisms. Since white girls are sexually liberated, they have to be whores and whores are worthless people you can do anything with. And that their cultural manly role is threatened by equal and independent women, making them less than men (you can see men who are feeling this even native Scandinavians occationally) and that they aren't exactly the most successful people, they try to be successful by very basic and pathetic means of dominance and oppression.
Backwards as heck.

I'm curious for what the Koran talks about female and female sexuality and it's consequences for their social status. Something for our residental Koran expert perhaps?

[Fragony]

How many did you date

[Hax]

I'm curious for what the Koran talks about female and female sexuality and it's consequences for their social status. Something for our residental Koran expert perhaps?

Well, I never read the Qur'an in its entirety, as I don't find it all that interesting, and I don't think there are any experts on tafsir here anyway, so yeah. I might try to find something about it.

Also, you should probably realise that the Qur'an on its own isn't sufficient in order to live a life in which religion is integrated into most aspects of your daily life. For that there are hadith (plural ahadith), but they are tricky in more than one way.

EDIT: Also, rape is a no-go area. There's no difference here between Muslims and non-Muslims. The classical interpretation is that rapists should be stoned to death.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

EDIT: Also, rape is a no-go area. There's no difference here between Muslims and non-Muslims. The classical interpretation is that rapists should be stoned to death.

Not true - it's not rape if you are in an urban area and no one discovers you, because she obviously didn't cry out - which means she must have consented.

That's a Judaeo-Islamic one, that.

Funnily enough, that edict functions on a paradigm similar to the Western one where the welfare of all women is the concern of all men.

[Hax]

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

I'm sorry, yes you are correct.

I should have been more specific - the point I was making was in relation to this case, in an urban setting, and how the perpetrators (and perhaps some in their community) might see the situation.

I.e. the fact that these white girls don't immidiately scream blue murder makes them sluts.

[Fragony]

Did you misunderstand me? I said that rape is punishable by death. Whether or not a situation constitutes rape is not something I discussed, all I'm saying that if someone is convicted of rape, he is to be stoned.

If the victim has at least 3 Male witnisses (or was it five) it's 5:30 here and I need coffee, I am out of it. But if she doesn't have witnisses she will be killed or forced to marry. But that's in arabland not here