The trial of Anders Behring Breivik

[Kadagar_AV]

Or he is just really-really evil. It takes a special kind of guy to go and shoot dozens of children.

Norway is a secular country, and thus the concept of "evil" has no place in court.

Two lines of thought colliding:

1. He is "evil".

2. Because of genetical or sociological reasons he deemed his actions to be for the best.


The court is of course all set on option two, and is right now trying to see if it is the genetics that let him down - thus sending him to a mental ward facility. Or if it's society who let him down - thus sending him to prison.

Me? I am really torn on the issue. Whereas I support the general idea of lowering immigration I can not support the killing of young people like that.

With that said, imagine spending you'r life as a right winger, surrounded by people like HoreTore (no offense meant, I just mean that you are Norwegian and on this forum symbolize many of the Norwegian political policies).

I'd go a little bonkers too.

[a completely inoffensive name]

hehe..
Not to detract from the main discussion, but doesn't this beg the question? since a supernova is a star and as such a part of a star system, is it then true for all star systems that they were "moved" by a supernova? Cause - effect chain regress leads to the first supernova and then --- what? BB?

The first supernova came from a first generation star formed in the aftermath of the big bang, which is where almost all the hydrogen and helium of the universe comes from.

[HoreTore]

No worries Kadagar, I feel honoured by that kind of comment

Assuming he isn't guided by psychotic paranoia(which is the diagnosis in question), he is a whiny little bitch who doesn't have the backbone to fight for what he believes in, like the rest of us do. He wants his views to become dominant, yet he doesn't want to lift a finger to move society in that direction. When society doesn't change through magical means, he kills people. A pathetic, small man.

Paranoia isn't an illness determined by biology, btw. And the line of legal thought the court is using now isn't a modern thing, it dates back to the viking age.

[rvg]

Norway is a secular country, and thus the concept of "evil" has no place in court.

Two lines of thought colliding:

1. He is "evil".

2. Because of genetical or sociological reasons he deemed his actions to be for the best.


The court is of course all set on option two, and is right now trying to see if it is the genetics that let him down - thus sending him to a mental ward facility. Or if it's society who let him down - thus sending him to prison.

Me? I am really torn on the issue. Whereas I support the general idea of lowering immigration I can not support the killing of young people like that.

With that said, imagine spending you'r life as a right winger, surrounded by people like HoreTore (no offense meant, I just mean that you are Norwegian and on this forum symbolize many of the Norwegian political policies).

I'd go a little bonkers too.

I wasn't making a legal argument, merely stating my opinion about the guy.

[HoreTore]

I wouldn't say evil though.

Violence is the choice of the idiot, the loser and the lazy. Genuinly evil people find more elaborate ways to torment their victims than blind violence.

[rvg]

I wouldn't say evil though.

Violence is the choice of the idiot, the loser and the lazy. Genuinly evil people find more elaborate ways to torment their victims than blind violence.

Why do you find evil and stupidity to be mutually exclusive?

[Kadagar_AV]

No worries Kadagar, I feel honoured by that kind of comment

Assuming he isn't guided by psychotic paranoia(which is the diagnosis in question), he is a whiny little bitch who doesn't have the backbone to fight for what he believes in, like the rest of us do. He wants his views to become dominant, yet he doesn't want to lift a finger to move society in that direction. When society doesn't change through magical means, he kills people. A pathetic, small man.

Paranoia isn't an illness determined by biology, btw. And the line of legal thought the court is using now isn't a modern thing, it dates back to the viking age.

I have to disagree. I believe he very much so put up a fight, and did more than lift a finger.

He was the first on the barricade - from his perspective of course.

Do NOT get me wrong, I in NO way support his actions. But from his standpoint, and pretty much anyone's standpoint, you can't accuse him of not fighting for what he believes in.

I'm not even sure he failed at his mission. In Norway, maybe. But in Sweden this have had a more alarming effect. No one supports his actions, but the reasoning behind his actions has been brought up to light, and at least it is now being discussed. Not in media of course, but among people.

Let's face it - shoot outs with political agendas will ALWAYS lead to a discussion of the political agenda. And you must bear in mind that just because Norway is all "Uuuuuuuh", it could still make Sweden and Denmark go like "Uuuuuuuuh we don't want that here, let's lower immigration".

I actually think he earned the extreme right a couple of votes. Not because he is right in his actions, but because we don't want to deal with this sort of things at large.

[HoreTore]

Why do you find evil and stupidity to be mutually exclusive?

Good point.

Kadagar, engaging in politics and trying to persuade others that your opinions are correct takes a lot more effort than gunning down 77 unarmed civillians. The first is a lifetimes work, the second takes a couple of years in planning.

He was too lazy to do the hard stuff, so he chose the easy stuff. He is also completely incapable of accepting that people disagree with him. He didn't fight for his views, he gunned down those he disagreed with.

I don't know how he does on an IQ-test, but his intelligence in social science is awful. Rock-bottom.

[Sigurd]

The first supernova came from a first generation star formed in the aftermath of the big bang, which is where almost all the hydrogen and helium of the universe comes from.

I think you will find problems postulating the theory that every star system in the universe, bar those about the same age as the universe itself, are formed due to a supernovae blast. In fact I believe the percentage is very low. The theory states that an embryo star system starts to collapse due to an external force. e.g a supernova. Not that all external forces are supernovas. Personally I think Galaxy nucleus black holes are the major player within stellar creation.

/back to Breivik.

"En himmel full av stjerner...."

[Fragony]

Good point.

Kadagar, engaging in politics and trying to persuade others that your opinions are correct takes a lot more effort than gunning down 77 unarmed civillians. The first is a lifetimes work, the second takes a couple of years in planning.

He was too lazy to do the hard stuff, so he chose the easy stuff.

You need to think like him, for him it's a longterm investment, none of these kids will become future leaders. That is also why he claims self-defence

[Viking]

40,000 people had no other things to do on a Thursday noon? I reckon they could have assembled a moon rocket in the relevant time frame.

Some 40,000 people have gathered on an Oslo square to sing a popular peace song which mass killer Anders Behring Breivik condemned at his trial.

The right-wing extremist had accused the singer of Children Of The Rainbow, Lillebjoern Nilsen, of being a Marxist who sought to brainwash children.

Nilsen led the crowd on Thursday in singing the song on Youngstorget Square, close to the courthouse.

[...]

In court last Friday, Breivik attacked Norway's educational system and singled out Nilsen as a "good example of a Marxist who infiltrated the cultural sector, [who] writes music that is used to brainwash children".

On Thursday, Nilsen led the singing in the square of Children Of The Rainbow, a Norwegian version of US folk singer Pete Seeger's My Rainbow Race, which is an anti-war song from his 1973 album of the same name.

[HoreTore]

"Blått hav så langt du ser..."

Viking, taking an hour off work is no problem in situations like this. And you need to consider the tons of students and school children...

[Viking]

That was at least partially humorous. I am always slightly creeped out by crowds like these. But if the common goal is to avoid getting eaten by the hungry lions surrounding us, then it's okay; as long as I am somewhere near the middle.

There's also something ironic about acting on weird stuff the wacko says; we got an endless supply there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Kadagar, engaging in politics and trying to persuade others that your opinions are correct takes a lot more effort than gunning down 77 unarmed civillians. The first is a lifetimes work, the second takes a couple of years in planning.

He was too lazy to do the hard stuff, so he chose the easy stuff. He is also completely incapable of accepting that people disagree with him. He didn't fight for his views, he gunned down those he disagreed with.

I don't know how he does on an IQ-test, but his intelligence in social science is awful. Rock-bottom.

This is a matter of persepctive, he is operating on a different set of norms to you. From his perspective, he is willing to kill and die for his beliefs - I recall he said he didn't exepct to be taken alive.

By contrast, all you do is talk. So, that make you the coward from his perspective.

Me - I suppose my views sit somewhere between the two, but I feel very strongly that to simply dismiss Breivik as lazy or cowardly is reductive.

[Rhyfelwyr]

As much as I don't like the bandwagon with lumping every unpopular ideology in with Breivik's, the bandwagon with calling him a coward is probably on the mark.

He says he planned to die, but I find that hard to believe since he chose not to go down all guns blazing. And targeting defenceless teenagers is a very cowardly and pathetic way to act.

Even if he was a lunatic I would admit that he had guts if he went down in a shoot out with the military or the police.

At the end of the day he targeted the defenceless and surrendered at the first opportunity.

[rvg]

And targeting defenceless teenagers is a very cowardly and pathetic way to act.

Then again, if his goal was to inflict as much pain as possible upon his perceived enemies, then he could not have picked more appropriate targets.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think the "coward" thing is weird too. He killed dozens of people. Who cares about cowardice? Or "laziness"?

[HoreTore]

That was at least partially humorous. I am always slightly creeped out by crowds like these. But if the common goal is to avoid getting eaten by the hungry lions surrounding us, then it's okay; as long as I am somewhere near the middle.

There's also something ironic about acting on weird stuff the wacko says; we got an endless supply there.

I find it encouraging that this is the kind of remark people latch onto.

There are certainly enough coming out that people could react to, and which could lead to much worse things than public singing. So far these kinds of comments have been passed in silence, and I'm very happy about that.

[Beskar]

I have to be honest, I never really understood his logic.Then again, I never understood the logic of terrorism for "ideological causes" which are abstract concepts and highly debatable opposed to something far more rational and concrete, for example, French Resistance in Vichy France.

[Viking]

While the trial is in on of its more duller phases of reading of autopsy reports, I thought it might be relevant to share this photo gallery from the days leading up to 22 July last year, for those who wanted some more insight into the camp stuff on Utøya. Not sure how many of the 69 murdered that can be seen in these images, but the guy in #10 is one of them.

[Greyblades]

They look so happy...

[Fragony]

Link crashes my browser. Kinda glad it does really, I want to see it out of a morbid fascination but I'm not quite up to it.

[Viking]

Well, I think most of the people that you can easily identify in those photos are still alive, so not quite that morbid (there were like 500-700 people on the island in total, with 69 murdered plus 33 shot and wounded). The photographer (a participant who survived) might have chosen not to publish certain images, I don't know.

Don't know why the link fails your browser.

[Viking]

Here's a video of the burning man outside the court (after commercial; has potential to disturb). He appears to be a social client that got funny ideas for this day.

I got to say that this trial really gives bang for the buck.

[HoreTore]

Also, Fjordman once again shows his enormous ego by refusing to testify. Yes, Fjordman, this trial is about you. Not the 77 people who died, their relatives and the man who killed them.

Also, for someone who claims to support the principals of the judicial system, he shows an utter lack of respect and understanding for it. He is little more than a hypocritical liar with an inflated ego.

[Fragony]

Also, Fjordman once again shows his enormous ego by refusing to testify. Yes, Fjordman, this trial is about you. Not the 77 people who died, their relatives and the man who killed them..

Hardly, that is a strange thought mia muca. Frordman is mentioned in the manifest, the one Breivik started writing 10 years ago.

What do you want, to have critisism of Islam on trial or Andres Breivik? It is not the same thing.

[HoreTore]

Hardly, that is a strange thought mia muca. Frordman is mentioned in the manifest, the one Breivik started writing 10 years ago.

What do you want, to have critisism of Islam on trial or Andres Breivik? It is not the same thing.

I want a fair trial, and a fair trial means that the defense is free to construct their defense as they want to.

Fjordman shows a blatant disrespect for this process, which is the very foundation of the modern judicial system.

[Fragony]

I want a fair trial, and a fair trial means that the defense is free to construct their defense as they want to.

Fjordman shows a blatant disrespect for this process, which is the very foundation of the modern judicial system.

Just showing up have hurt the judicial proces as he had nothing to do with it. What exactly do you want to put on trial really, I think just another opinion. What is fjordman supposed to say? Sorry that my texts were copy pasted? I would avoid that show like the plague as well.

[HoreTore]

Just showing up have hurt the judicial proces as he had nothing to do with it. What exactly do you want to put on trial really, I think just another opinion. What is fjordman supposed to say? Sorry that my texts were copy pasted? I would avoid that show like the plague as well.

Exactly what the defense wants, I don't know, but my guess is that they want to show that ABB's views are not a consequence of a personality disorder.

A defense can call whoever they feel will help their case. ABB and his defene is of the opinion that Fjordman can give insights that will be beneficial for the defense. Disregarding that is mocking the judicial process.

That fjordman thinks he "is put on trial" just shows what an enormous ego the idiot has.

[Fragony]

Exactly what the defense wants, I don't know, but my guess is that they want to show that ABB's views are not a consequence of a personality disorder.

A defense can call whoever they feel will help their case. ABB and his defene is of the opinion that Fjordman can give insights that will be beneficial for the defense. Disregarding that is mocking the judicial process.

That fjordman thinks he "is put on trial" just shows what an enormous ego the idiot has.

I think you are making a mistake by trying to link islamcritisism to what Breivik did it's not just a bit cheap. You want Frordman dragged into court but he didn't do anything. Thought police oh yes. It probably doesn't surprise you if I say that I read his blogs, no harm done