Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum

[wangchang]

Rome 2 total war as been announced as many of you must have seen.
Like in the previous rome, they might commit the same mistake of depicting the northern european factions as mindless, stereotypical, hollywoodian Barbarian.
I know that this team initial goal was exactly to correct this by putting more emphasis on those cultures, hence the name Europa Barbarorum.
I also think that you contacted CA in the development phase of rome total war in order to convince them to depict northern european more accurately, and give them the civilized look they deserved.

The time as come to defend to get up and defend those civilization again.
This time, CA might be more receptive : it's been almost 10 year since rome total war, CA must have undergone many change. In the employee section as well as in the overall direction. Just look at the historical accuracy of shogun 2 total war compared to rome total war : CA put an accent on this accuracy.
But, I fear that many in CA, even in the history department still have that sterotypical view of the gauls,germans,britons of less civilized than the roman,greeks...

However i'm pretty sure that this time, CA would be more receptive, considering the reason mentioned above and also the fact that they are still in very early development and apparently did not already conceive the factions.

It's time to fulfill this mod's team initial goal : to raise awareness in CA about the refinement and complexity of the northern european civilization (celts and germans to be more precise), and prevent their depiction as generic primitive men.

So are you going to contact CA like you did 8 years ago? Now is the best time to act, since the game is still in very early phase, and CA might be very receptive. They must even be searching documentation right now on this time period.

It's now or never, let's do it :thumbsup2







PS : I will post this message in many europa barbarorum forums/sections, since i'm not sure which one is active and which one isn't, and I think it should be discussed in the most active section. Thanks for your comprehension :) .



EDIT : PS :

I made a thread in the rome 2 total war section of the TWcenter forums. My name in those forums is akarnir. I was banned because of a misunderstanding, but they agreed to keep the thread :) .

It's about how the Gauls should be depicted more accurately in the next total war forums, how their cities should have more majesty and how their unit should look less generic (translate to : they should look like in Europa Barbarorum :) ).

The link is here : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834

I also look up to you guys to participate and keep the thread alive. If this thread becomes big, CA might get aware of the matter. It's the best way to inform them if they aren't already.

So don't hesitate to go in this thread : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834 and to participate in the debate, add more informations, and defend this cause.

Thanks :), I really hope this thread get the attention it deserve.

[Cybvep]

Don't get your hopes up. Historical accuracy has never been a priority for CA. Gauls and Germans are nothing - I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptians were depicted in the same way they were depicted in RTW1 and it was simply idiotic...

If the game is moddable, things like that won't be a big issue, but if it isn't...

[Blxz]

Nothing will change. EB is a drop in the ocean compared to the number of people who will be buying Rome 2 expecting 'normal' history. CA want their version of gameplay not history dominated stuff.

I am still reading people in other forums saying they want other games to be more historical and character driven so they can play one of the "3 great roman factions like the julii, scipii and brutii". Hmm, i wonder where they got their 'history' from?
Its a little sad, but I suspect more of the same from Rome 2.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the team will watch this with interest, certainly I will, though I cannot speak for others.

As regards contacting CA - I'm afraid that this game will have been in development since Shogan II was released, if not since Empire, certainly all concepting and research will be done and I don't think it would be fruitful to contact CA again. For one thing, we have already made a strong pitch with EBI which demonstrated that historical accuracy can be accessable and fun. I would be very surprised if some of EB's content isn't reflected in Rome 2, not least because we provided huge amounts of "unit Porn" for them.

[wangchang]

Yet, if you don't try you cannot know for sure. The release is planned in late 2013, so they still have a lot of work to do. Right now they must still be working on the engine and technical stuff, the units and faction will be done in the last year of development.

You have nothing to loose with trying and you don't know but i'm pretty sure CA has changed this time : have you seen shogun 2 total war ? Everything was historically accurate, units were extremely accurately detailed as well as factions, even to the point of boringness because they didn't add other factions like mongols (since they never came in japan it would have been inaccurate) and they didn't created fancy units to make factions different. In their last 3 games : Napoleon, shogun 2 and fall of the samurai, they focused a lot on historical accuracy, even winning an award in napoleon from the college of historian.
Their employees and direction changed in 8 years, so the new team may be more receptive.

Also don't forget that you (the team) are not the same as 8 year before. You have gained a lot of notability and you have a huge reputation, surely within CA itself.
You will have way more credibility than 8 year before : this will be the team that made the biggest and very popular mod for rome total war that will advise CA, not just random people like 8 years ago.

I don't think CA has any interest in depicting them as savage, but they probably didn't really paid attention to the matter and might end up reusing the old set. But if you warn them, they might realize. With your reputation , they will probably consider you as independent expert now because of your reputation, and company tend to hear experts.

In the end, if nobody tells them, they won't bother to pay attention to the problem if they haven't noticed. But if YOU, europa barbarorum team tells them, there is a good chance that they notice and act accordingly. Also, they can be lazy and maybe they haven't really begin their research work on all faction (they don't really have a lot of historians working for them). So if you provide them with the information about the germans/celts factions and they will probably take it, too happy not to have to research it themselves (so no paying for extra research).
Considering you reputation, they will see you as independent experts, giving them advice for free and making them win a good amount of time and money.



In the end I think it's really worth trying again. The odds are not the same as before : CA changed, and YOU changed, you gained a huge lot of reputation and notability and proved, even to CA, that you can be considered as experts.

IT'S A ONCE IN A LIFETIME CHANCE! Take it, you won't have the occasion again, you have all to win, nothing to loose.

[Moros]

8 years ago we did indeed contact CA. This time I don't know if it would be needed or be usefull. Personally I've seen no images or information on historical concepts, units, factions,... They did however say they will make every faction unique. That's all the information out there.

Personally I don't feel we should be telling CA, or anyone else how to make a game. They know about us and if they need historical information they can just read our previews and our information in EB I. They know where to find us. Of course if they want more information from us, we'd be happy to help and they'd just have to contact one of us.

[TinCow]

Personally I've seen no images or information on historical concepts, units, factions

I pulled a bunch of information out of the various news articles and interviews that got released yesterday, and compiled it here. As expected for an initial game announcement, there's not much to go on. However, they did specifically list a bunch of factions: Gaul, Germanic Tribes, Carthage, Egypt, Parthia, Dacia, and Cappadocia, as well as multiple Roman factions.

[Moros]

I pulled a bunch of information out of the various news articles and interviews that got released yesterday, and compiled it here. As expected for an initial game announcement, there's not much to go on. However, they did specifically list a bunch of factions: Gaul, Germanic Tribes, Carthage, Egypt, Parthia, Dacia, and Cappadocia, as well as multiple Roman factions.

They said no faction from the original is going to be left out as well.
About the Roman factions isn't that speculation from the writer of the article?

Edit:Wangchang, if you want to list your ideas and wishes, you might want to post them here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...8and-beyond%29
Perhaps they get spotted by CA there.

[TinCow]

About the Roman factions isn't that speculation from the writer of the article?

I got it from this bit:

That’ll be even more given that Russell hints at something similar to Fall of the Samurai’s Realm Divide mechanic for the Roman factions - Empire or Republic seems like a likely choice.

True, it's not a direct quote from CA, but the speculation seems to the Realm Divide mechanic, not "the Roman factions." Plus, they also said the Senate was it's own thing with it's own agenda... and that Rome can turn into an Empire, which means a Roman Civil War. Hard to have a civil war with only one faction. And, if they're including all the original factions, that means Julii, Brutii, and Scipii as well.

So, you are right that it hasn't been directly confirmed yet, but I'd put the odds at about 99.5%.

[wangchang]

You have more chance, being to europa barbarorum team to have your ideas spotted by CA than me. It's not worth trying for me.
But for you it's worth it. Honnestly, if you don't tell CA they won't go check on your forums, lets be realistic. But if you contact CA and make a comprehensive argumentation, there is a good chance that you will get their attention.
The simple step will be enough just to get their attention. Of all the hundreds of sources that exist, why would CA spontaneously go to your forums? You have to make the demarche to get their attention amongst all the other sources they could go see. You have to stand out, and the best way to do this is to contact them.

It's just like a job : if you want to have one particular job, you have to contact the employer, else he will not spontaneously contact you amongst all the thousands possible candidate.

If you make the effort of exposing them your knowledge and viewpoint, they will surely take it into account, considering your status as a very successful mod team.
There is also a good chance that you contact them while the are about the begin the faction creation phase : just at the right moment. At that point they will be more than happy to receive free, complete and comprehensive information from a really reputable source. It will save them a lot of money and time since the design, the descriptions have all been done and are adapted for a total war game.
This is the good time to strike. Don't assume they won't hear you without even trying : that is lame and it's like spoiling a dream chance.
I'm, looking up to you guys :) I know you can do it.

[I_damian]

Oh well, I contacted them anyhow with an email and pretty much begged them to draw on the work of the EB team when they make the game, rather than Hollywood like in Rome 1. It wouldn't take them any extra work to do so - if anything it would be easier as the EB team already did all their research for them and compiled it in to handy dandy faction previews, and also that it would still sell just as good if it had some realism. However, after seeing how realistic Shogun 2 was I do have some hope that it won't be a disney freakshow like before, with bright colourful lorica segmenta wearing Romans and Egyptian Pharaoh soldiers and battlefield assassins.

[wangchang]

Oh well, I contacted them anyhow with an email and pretty much begged them to draw on the work of the EB team when they make the game, rather than Hollywood like in Rome 1. It wouldn't take them any extra work to do so - if anything it would be easier as the EB team already did all their research for them and compiled it in to handy dandy faction previews, and also that it would still sell just as good if it had some realism. However, after seeing how realistic Shogun 2 was I do have some hope that it won't be a disney freakshow like before, with bright colourful lorica segmenta wearing Romans and Egyptian Pharaoh soldiers and battlefield assassins.

I had those hopes to but then I heard, in the lead designer interview, a sentence that bothered me : ''Barbarians in the forest and exotic empires in the east''. the interview is here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tyc...feature=relmfu
, I made a comment about this that is still in the top comment but I fear they will go for the hollywood barbarian look again, out of ignorance.

The problem is that a random dude sending them like you and me will have almost no credibility, they will probably not read the mail.



The best would be if the team's leaders contact them on behalf of the whole EB community. If they make an official approach , on behalf of one of the most successful mod and the most accurate one, they will have a lot of credibility, and they will raise awareness amongst CA. This approach will also encourage CA to follow this lead, at the crucial moment when they will start the full design of the civilization, or while they are doing it. It will have it's weight, and it might even help to give credibility to some CA member who are arguing for the same side.


Making an official approach will put the question on the table at CA, so they will carefully pay attention to it, whatever they planned in the first place, and they may choose the accuracy option, like they did in shogun2 or napoleon.





It's a chance to take, knowing that the game might not be modable, we cannot take the risk of seeing the Celts and Germans stuck with the barbaric savage role for the rest of our playtime!

[bobbin]

Jack Lusted confirmed that the Romans will be one faction here. I suspect all this talk of multiple "factions" is about internal divisions and such like.

As for the EB team writing a letter to CA like before I don't see the need to, the existence of the mod already does the job far better and CA are well aware of our work. When CraigTW posted about the current modding situation last year, EB was specifically singled out as an example of the value of mods.

[wangchang]

As for the EB team writing a letter to CA like before I don't see the need to, the existence of the mod already does the job far better and CA are well aware of our work. When CraigTW posted about the current modding situation last year, EB was specifically singled out as an example of the value of mods.

I get your point, I know CA is well aware of this mod existence and exemplarily. Yet, that doesn't mean that the ''historian'' team of TatW will think of your mod when they will design the factions, they not even be aware of your mod : CA is a big company, not all employee are really aware of the forum activity, and CA may not necessarily find the need to inform them on the modding situation. When they are in the process of designing the factions, they may even be impressed that the Europa Barbarorum team contact them and recall them of the huge amount of information they compiled. It's more about reminding them at the crucial moment than informing them.

[moonburn]

relax ca knows eb exists and as i stated in a thread when shogun2 came out both groups have far more to gain then to loose by ignoring each other

ofc ca won´t make a totally historical game but they can borrow alot from eb particulary the eye candy stuff and quite a few game mechanics and quite a few units wich are just amazing they´ll never leave out the brithein or the solduros or the orcas or the agematos i mean seriously they are blockbusters on their own

also since they introduced merchants in medieval 2 they will probably also take on all the merchant roads that eb as already set up for them and maybe go as far as extending the map as eb did to include backtria i mean baktria on it´s own would be mind bogling and an extraordinary trump card in terms of marketing if you also add the takashilans and the sauka rauka it gives you the chance to tap into the chinese market (the basin is nowadays part of china) and the indian market and who doesn´t want a 2.8 billion people market ? ca ain´t dumb and they probably recognised the potential of making the game atractive to indians and chinese by having them represented (even if not in their full glory )

also there´s a game mechanics that it´s hard to code in but might give the internal strugle and war that it takes wich is when 1 faction dies that faction slot can be recycled so that when civil war happens that open faction slot can take in the rebelious factions so a roman civil war (when rome is the 1st nation in the game ) can degenerate into 3/5 diferent factions with powerfull families on one side the senate on the other and the rebellious slave/protectorates rising in independence

that would allow a breaking into the jewish market by allowing the maccabians or whatever their name was to be an emerging faction and whoever says the jewish can say the illergetten or celtiberians or lussitanians or belgians or whatever faction that has fictionalised 19th century conections to nowaday nations wich opens more doors to more markets including the ukranian and russian and polish with the luigians the basternae and bosphorians or sauromatae both extremly atractive markets nowadays

also another finepoint by eb is the introduction of level4 goverments with puppet kings or mercenary generals thats one inovation they can´t ignore it makes the game more fun realistic and even 13 year old kids hooked on stimulants such as colas and other sugary beverages/foods will love it and praise ca and totalwar for it overall eb1 was the beta phase of rometotalwar2 and eb2 will be the realtotalwar2 and rometotalwar2 only has to have a better diplomacy and a stouter game engine to be the ultimate strategy totalwar game

there´s like a shitload of ways that ca can screw this up and fail to get the new generation of gamers hooked on their products but they already have the recipy and the ingredients with eb it´s all up to their cooking habilities (creating a proper game engine) to make sure they suceed or phail

[wangchang]

I agree with what you said, yet reminding CA that they should use this modd to design their factions will not hurt anybody. They might not think about using those modds, espceially since not everyone in CA's team know about the extent and magnitude of the modds out there.

It's more about reminding them. In a time were they are searching for sources and information, if one of those source reminds them they they can use it's contents, then they have more chance to use it.

[capomafioso]

something i hope that is included in rome 2, which isnt even a difficult thing to implement, is the languages. One thing i loved about EB is that it has romans speaking latin, greeks speaking ancient greek, and so on, this is something that i tried to implement myself many times into vanilla rtw and couldnt do, but nothing breaks the feeling of being an ancient general like hearing "were under attack!" in plain english.

probably though this wont be happening

edit: regarding the voicemods, nothing made me happier than hearing the correct pronounciations, with "v"s being pronounced as "w"s and phy in somatophylakes.

[Jormungand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tyc...feature=relmfu

There's a huge war going on at the Rome 2 Total War Designer Interview vid on YouTube. I've tried to enter the fray here against some particularly unscrupulous individuals, to quote for example -

"For all intents and purposes, everyone outside of Rome is a barbarian. What is the big ****ing deal?
Get the **** over it. "

Until now I've persistently reminded myself not to get dragged into the endless conundrum that is the YouTube argument. Sorry. This is an issue dear to my heart here. Couldn't resist...

[wangchang]

HAHAHA i'm in this war too :P . Just look at one guy in the top comments saying some bullshit about how celts were more backwards than romans. We should all go defend the celts/german right in this page.

[Shigawire]

I look forward to this, regardless. :)

[Ironduke]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clone1710
Will the germans, celts etc. look more realistic in terms of armor, weapons and clothing? (like in the Europa Barbarorum Mod)


Originally Posted by JackLusted
A question I can answer now (being unit design lead and all). There will be a lot of diversity between the various 'Barbarian' factions. Certainly based in history


Jack Lusted made that comment in the Q&A thread here. That means somthing, right?

[Jormungand]

Loving the little YouTube debate me and wangchang are having on the TWR2 YouTube page.

wangchang, since we've pretty much filled up the whole comments box there, perhaps we should discuss our own personal debate regarding Rome 2 Total War here, and pool our strength on the YouTube page against those who insult Celts, and un-Romans as mere, derogatory "barbarians"? After all, we're both together on that issue :D

[wangchang]

Loving the little YouTube debate me and wangchang are having on the TWR2 YouTube page.

wangchang, since we've pretty much filled up the whole comments box there, perhaps we should discuss our own personal debate regarding Rome 2 Total War here, and pool our strength on the YouTube page against those who insult Celts, and un-Romans as mere, derogatory "barbarians"? After all, we're both together on that issue :D

Yeah i completely agree. I also agree that at it's peak, in the imperial era, the roman civilization had a level of advancement far superior to anybody, so we both agree on that point. I think that during the war of the Gauls, both romans and Gauls were as advanced.
What I rage on is that one of the top comments basically state that Gauls had a level of culture far inferior from the carthaginians, greeks or republican roman, which is completely false. At the time of rome total war (200BC to 0AD) They were as advanced as the big power of the Mediterranean.

[wangchang]

DELETE : DOUBLE POST SORRY

[wangchang]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clone1710
Will the germans, celts etc. look more realistic in terms of armor, weapons and clothing? (like in the Europa Barbarorum Mod)


Originally Posted by JackLusted
A question I can answer now (being unit design lead and all). There will be a lot of diversity between the various 'Barbarian' factions. Certainly based in history


Jack Lusted made that comment in the Q&A thread here. That means somthing, right?

YOu mean the Q&A for Rome 2 TOtal War? An official Q&A? Sorry I don't know who is JackLusted :)
If it's really an official statement from CA then I am relieved.

[fightermedic]

Jack Lusted is a former modder and now works for CA, so this is an official statement, yes

[moonburn]

a dude over at totalwar center or whatever it´named called eb nitpicking i was almost tempeted to go into an argument with him but i decided to refrain no good can come out of calling stupid people stupid right ...

[Jormungand]

Culture's a different bag altogether, yes. Ranking culture, saying one is "inferior" to another, is (sorry to repeat myself) incredibly subjective and biased. In my opinion the Gauls had as rich and diverse a culture as any Mediterranean civilization/nation.

[Ibrahim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tyc...feature=relmfu

There's a huge war going on at the Rome 2 Total War Designer Interview vid on YouTube. I've tried to enter the fray here against some particularly unscrupulous individuals, to quote for example -

"For all intents and purposes, everyone outside of Rome is a barbarian. What is the big ****ing deal?
Get the **** over it. "

Until now I've persistently reminded myself not to get dragged into the endless conundrum that is the YouTube argument. Sorry. This is an issue dear to my heart here. Couldn't resist...

experience has taught me to keep your reply short, simply, to the point, and best of all, piercing. That is even if you dare to do that--something I advise against.

beyond that, the previews were meh, I'm not particularly interested, and I don't hold high hopes. (that one trailer though did have one fine specimen--if you follow )

EDIT: I don't have high hopes, as the games lately have been particularly hard to mod (Empire has been adding a few extra gray hairs on me), the AI has barely progressed--perhaps except in moddability, and even then, it's not what I would hope for. Even if the tying of diplomatic and military AI is achieved, there is no guarantee that it will be improved: it just means that if they screw up, both will be screwed up. further, I would like a model type that with minimal scripting I can port easily to 3dsmax: something the developers apparently found a bit too hard lately: all current methods are a hassle. I could go on about the difficulties I've encountered, but I'll desist--for now.

[wangchang]

EDIT: I don't have high hopes, as the games lately have been particularly hard to mod (Empire has been adding a few extra gray hairs on me)

That is my my fear to. This is why to best thing to do is make sure vanilla total war will be already decently accurate. Reminding them they can use EB work is a good way to do this. If along the billions source they could use, one remind them they can use her, they will surely consider it. Especially if this source is EB, the most accurate mod out there, one of the most popular mod. All the work will have already been done.
Let us not take the risk to think that the designer team will be wise enough to go check europa barbarorum by themselves. THE RISK IS TOO HIGH.

SO I appeal to the team leaders : PLEASE CONTACT THEM ON BEHALF OF THE WHOLE TEAM.

thanks