The Castration of Boxing

[Vuk]

Um, while the sport itself has become silly

To say that modern boxers would "stand a chance" is a little harsh. I would bet that against about 95% of the population they would whip that a$$, to include many martial artists. Much of it depends on how the fight starts and who gets the first punch.

I also do not understand your fascination with preparing people for "real combat." I mean, I understand why you want to be prepared, and why many people would want to be prepared, but I don't understand why you think a professional boxer would need to be prepared, if he cared if he was prepared, or why you care if he or anyone else is prepared. This whole Entertainment must Mimic Life mentality defeats the purpose of entertainment, and thats what most pro sports are these days. They are athletes with no other functional use.

I suggest you move to a pacific island and start your very own bloodsport deathmatch business. I will be in Guam, so I can help you

I said wouldn't stand a chance against an 1800's professional boxer, not a random modern bozo.

Fighting is at the heart of fighting arts. I do not see how people can seperate them and take them seriously. The only way it has worked is by fooling people into thinking it still is fighting at its heart. They lie to people and make them think they are seeing something real.

[Major Robert Dump]

I didnt catch the 1800s part, I thought u just meant vs any bozo on the street. I still remember what that poor dudes face looked like when Tyson punched him outside the night club. Blocking a punch from someone like Klitchko means I would just KO myself with my own forearms as they were smashed into my face.

Well, thats just what it has degraded to. Baseball, basketball, all the other balls, they serve no purpose other than to entertain i a very narrow manner. Of course many pro ball players are great athletes in terms of muscle and cardio and paychecks, but their sport has no functional use outside of the sport. Fighting sports have become much of the same thing.

They have castrated UFC, too, for what its worth. It was very new, very pure fighting at first. Then came the rules. Then came the regulations. Then came the sponsors who wanted certain caveats. Thats just how it goes in the USA and many other countries.

[Vuk]

Fighting sports have become much of the same thing.

They have castrated UFC, too, for what its worth. It was very new, very pure fighting at first. Then came the rules. Then came the regulations. Then came the sponsors who wanted certain caveats. Thats just how it goes in the USA and many other countries.

I know, and I would love to see the UFC become something real. Of course they won't do that, because when you had less rules, like in early Pride, guys like Sakuraba Kazushi embarrased the heck out of the Gracies. If they were to take away the rules, GJJ would get its arse kicked, and people would see it for what it was. They suprised everyone at first, but now that people are used to it, they can easily learn how to defeat it with their own styles, and it would become just another martial art, out there with all the others (one of the less effectives ones at that), instead of people thinking it is the most lethal fighting art in the world.
Without the rules, a lot of TMA would start kicking butt, and people would see all the lies about GJJ for what they are. The Gracies and their cronies would lose a lot of money.

I think it is more realistic to change boxing, even with all of its corruption. (though a change in either sport is unlikely)

[johnhughthom]

UFC still throws up the odd classic, Henderson vs Shogun last year was fb.

[Vuk]

Underground MMA is where its at these days. UFC is good, but there's so much money in it that you just know eventually it'll go the way boxing has gone. I get my kicks from local organizations.

lol, a few years ago I participated in a few not-quite sanctioned MMA fights, but decided it was not worth the risk eventually. :P (and the guy who runs it is a d$#&) (made some not-that-bad money doing it though)
Honestly though, if what I saw is anything to go off of, they are not that much better than the UFC. They are just packed with crazies, but there is not much skill.

[Strike For The South]

A modern boxer would kill an 1800s style bare knuckle fighter. Literally kill him.

Your ignorance is showing again.

Boxing would be respectable again, and effective. Right now a bunch of toothless rednecks and city trash love to sit down and watch their brutal blood and sweat fest, but really know nothing about real fighting (that is why modern boxing appeals to them).

Simply becuase you do not see the beauty does not mean it is absent. Besides boxing is most popular with latin immigrants not rednecks. Rednecks are all about the MMA

[Vuk]

A modern boxer would kill an 1800s style bare knuckle fighter. Literally kill him.

Your ignorance is showing again.

lmao...dude! You really have no idea! This coming from the guy who bragged that he knew nothing about fighting because he thought it was useless. Sorry chump, but steroids don't make you an expert fighter.

[Strike For The South]

lmao...dude! You really have no idea! This coming from the guy who bragged that he knew nothing about fighting because he thought it was useless. Sorry chump, but steroids don't make you an expert fighter.

I never said it was useless, go back to the thread and read what I wrote. I also have never claimed to be an expert fighter. I do know that throwing a balled, bare knuckle fist at a mans face is a good way to break everybone in your hand.

[Vuk]

I never said it was useless, go back to the thread and read what I wrote. I also have never claimed to be an expert fighter. I do know that throwing a balled, bare knuckle fist at a mans face is a good way to break everybone in your hand.

Really, then why throughout history have people done it succesfully? It is called conditioning, genius. You need to condition your fists to be able to take heavy impacts on hard objects. There are many sophisticated ways of doing this, but I used to just practice on a concrete wall. Start out slow and light, and build up.
I've punch people in the face, and not broke my hand, and I've been punched in the face by someone who did not break their hand. You will only break your hand if you are an untrained idiot or have exceptionally bad luck. Also, you are not supposed to target the hardest areas of people's skulls!

[Vuk]

Simply becuase you do not see the beauty does not mean it is absent. Besides boxing is most popular with latin immigrants not rednecks. Rednecks are all about the MMA

Who said that latin immigrants cannot be rednecks too?

[Beskar]

I thought the gloves actually made the sport far more dangerous because if any of those boxers actually punched without the gloves, they would smash the bone in their hands, so as such, the gloves allow them to punch far harder which leads to greater head injury.

edit: Strike beat me to it.

[Strike For The South]

Really, then why throughout history have people done it succesfully? It is called conditioning, genius. You need to condition your fists to be able to take heavy impacts on hard objects. There are many sophisticated ways of doing this, but I used to just practice on a concrete wall. Start out slow and light, and build up.

Bull. People throughout history have not fought in "boxing" style. The skull is unforgiving and will shatter your bare hand. Matches lasted that long because boxers kept their distance and threw safer punches.

I've punch people in the face, and not broke my hand, and I've been punched in the face by someone who did not break their hand. You will only break your hand if you are an untrained idiot or have exceptionally bad luck. Also, you are not supposed to target the hardest areas of people's skulls!

You are not a trained boxer. I'm willing to wager you're not a trained fighter at all.

[Strike For The South]

As has been pointed out, gloves made the sport much more dangerous.

[spankythehippo]

You want danger? Try competitive Russian Roulette.

In fact, that would be the only sport I'd watch.

[Centurion1]

You know who is a trained boxer?

Moi.

I boxed (don't anymore it doesn't interest me as much) since I was 11 years old. Even won a young golden gloves competition. So let me drop some knowledge kiddies.

Boxing is a sport. It is not a war, a gladiatorial combat, or anything of the sort. It is an old, well established sport. The objective is not to actively injure your opponent or draw blood. It is to win. Injury and blood are a side effect of pursuing victory. Mr. Vuk you do not know anything about boxing it appears so please realize that the mountain of knowledge you believe you are standing on is in reality more like an ocean trench. Let me begin,

1. Boxing is a dying sport. Sports die, new amusements strike the peoples fancy this is the nature of the world. I don't really care
2. Boxing is a corrupt sport filled with disgusting cheating and rampant ethical issues.
3. Boxing has always been this way.
4. Boxing will always be this way.
5. Your suggestions are imbecilic which we will cover in part 2

Part 2 Aka your severe lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology and the technical details of boxing

1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
2. You likely think boxing is cool because you have never been in a fight with a real boxer or anyone with boxing ability
3. Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather weigh about 60 pounds less than me and probably 200 pounds less than you. They would literally beat the crap out of us.
4. To say a modern boxer would lose to your bare knuckle boxer of the 1880's is patently false and such an absurd claim I dont even want to address it. He would get his butt kicked in under 1 minute by any professional 21st century boxer. Muhhamad Ali would get his butt kicked too in his prime. If you havent noticed, in every single sport since the dawn of history athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster, taller, and more skilled. I, merely your average joe, am in better shape, stronger and faster than most boxers of the 1880's. (I would be destroyed but I am better physical specimen is my point).
5. your lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology is chilling. Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces. A boxing glove spreads the force over a larger surface area and causes more damage, as it also creates a stronger and harder surface to interact with the victims tissue than you hand. Boxing gloves are HEAVY. It is a struggle to even hold them up for a few minutes unless your very strong. They are meant to protect your hands because you dolt you will break your hands punching bone with bare knuckles. I have very small hands which makes it easier for me to punch people as the force becomes concentrated than an individual with larger paws. However, even I know that my hands will break if i start boxing. Even with gloves I have broken my left hand and snapped about 6 fingers. My hands are so ******* up when I went to get my fingerprints for my security clearance the guy doing it asked what was wrong with my fingers. Have you ever seen the hand or bones of an individual from the era of boxing where no gloves were worn? They dont even look human.

In summation. You sir insult me. I didnt even want to post in this thread.

I'm just ignoring your lack of knowledge regarding style in boxing, the necessity of rules, and a belief that boxing does not present effective guards and combinations. I am also going to ignore you inability to grasp the difference between a sport and a self defense method.

[Whacker]

what is this thread i dont even

[Vuk]

You know who is a trained boxer?

Moi.

I boxed (don't anymore it doesn't interest me as much) since I was 11 years old. Even won a young golden gloves competition. So let me drop some knowledge kiddies.
Congratulations Muhammed. Out of curiosity, have you ever been in a real fight?
Part 2 Aka your severe lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology and the technical details of boxing

1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
Because far too many people hurt their knuckles? I assume that is what you must mean because of what you say bellow.
2. You likely think boxing is cool because you have never been in a fight with a real boxer or anyone with boxing ability
Thank you for knowing so much about me.
3. Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather weigh about 60 pounds less than me and probably 200 pounds less than you. They would literally beat the crap out of us.
Of course they would beat the crap out of me. They are much faster, much stronger, and have much more experience. When did I ever say I could stand up against a professional boxer?
4. To say a modern boxer would lose to your bare knuckle boxer of the 1880's is patently false and such an absurd claim I dont even want to address it. He would get his butt kicked in under 1 minute by any professional 21st century boxer. Muhhamad Ali would get his butt kicked too in his prime. If you havent noticed, in every single sport since the dawn of history athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster, taller, and more skilled. I, merely your average joe, am in better shape, stronger and faster than most boxers of the 1880's. (I would be destroyed but I am better physical specimen is my point).
If you believe this, you are a fool. You see what you are basing this on? bigger, stronger, etc. You obviously have not been in many real fights Centurion. I have been in a few, and it often is not the biggest and strongest person who wins. It is the most determined and the most skillful. Speed probably is the next most important determining factor, and then reach. Your ignorance is a result of all your fights being gloved fights. In a gloved fight, you almost always need to be larger and stronger than your opponent. You don't in a bareknuckle match.

5. your lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology is chilling. Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces. A boxing glove spreads the force over a larger surface area and causes more damage, as it also creates a stronger and harder surface to interact with the victims tissue than you hand. Boxing gloves are HEAVY. It is a struggle to even hold them up for a few minutes unless your very strong. They are meant to protect your hands because you dolt you will break your hands punching bone with bare knuckles. I have very small hands which makes it easier for me to punch people as the force becomes concentrated than an individual with larger paws. However, even I know that my hands will break if i start boxing. Even with gloves I have broken my left hand and snapped about 6 fingers. My hands are so ******* up when I went to get my fingerprints for my security clearance the guy doing it asked what was wrong with my fingers. Have you ever seen the hand or bones of an individual from the era of boxing where no gloves were worn? They dont even look human.
Oh, really? How come I know people who can break solidly supported slabs of contrete with their fist? (I can break those same slabs with an open hand, and trust me, it is not easy) How come I have punched people in the face before and done nothing more than lose a little skin because my punch wasn't as straight as it should have been? Why is it that I can punch a concrete wall quite hard and fast without breaking my hand? It is called conditioning, which people who train to punch without gloves do. Without training your hands to strike hard objects, yes, gloves are necassary, but they can be trained.

In summation. You sir insult me. I didnt even want to post in this thread.

I'm just ignoring your lack of knowledge regarding style in boxing, the necessity of rules, and a belief that boxing does not present effective guards and combinations. I am also going to ignore you inability to grasp the difference between a sport and a self defense method.
A good martial art is both. As far as 'effective guards and combinations', save it. I have heard it before from boxers. I cannot grasp how boxers can put so much faith in their guards, because they really suck (esp in a bareknuckle situation). I had a professor who actually made it to an olympic boxing team. I tried discussing boxing defense with her, and she would not even consider that there could be anything better in the world. Here's the thing though Cent, boxing has a very passive defense (overall). A good martial art has an active defense. You think the boxing guards are good because you have not been taught anything better. Let's leave it at that.

In short, you are like so many other martial artists out there: completely entrenched in the myths and beliefs of your style, unwilling to consider anything else, and completely hostile to those who doubt the merits of said style.

[Vuk]

what is this thread i dont even

Kisses baby!

1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.

Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces.

Nice.

[Major Robert Dump]

Theres so much e-peen measuring going on, I am frantically searching for mine because I don't want to get left out, but I cannot find it becoz I just got out of the poolzor.

[Whacker]

You know who is a trained boxer?

Moi.

I boxed (don't anymore it doesn't interest me as much) since I was 11 years old. Even won a young golden gloves competition. So let me drop some knowledge kiddies.

Boxing is a sport. It is not a war, a gladiatorial combat, or anything of the sort. It is an old, well established sport. The objective is not to actively injure your opponent or draw blood. It is to win. Injury and blood are a side effect of pursuing victory. Mr. Vuk you do not know anything about boxing it appears so please realize that the mountain of knowledge you believe you are standing on is in reality more like an ocean trench. Let me begin,

1. Boxing is a dying sport. Sports die, new amusements strike the peoples fancy this is the nature of the world. I don't really care
2. Boxing is a corrupt sport filled with disgusting cheating and rampant ethical issues.
3. Boxing has always been this way.
4. Boxing will always be this way.
5. Your suggestions are imbecilic which we will cover in part 2

Part 2 Aka your severe lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology and the technical details of boxing

1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
2. You likely think boxing is cool because you have never been in a fight with a real boxer or anyone with boxing ability
3. Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather weigh about 60 pounds less than me and probably 200 pounds less than you. They would literally beat the crap out of us.
4. To say a modern boxer would lose to your bare knuckle boxer of the 1880's is patently false and such an absurd claim I dont even want to address it. He would get his butt kicked in under 1 minute by any professional 21st century boxer. Muhhamad Ali would get his butt kicked too in his prime. If you havent noticed, in every single sport since the dawn of history athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster, taller, and more skilled. I, merely your average joe, am in better shape, stronger and faster than most boxers of the 1880's. (I would be destroyed but I am better physical specimen is my point).
5. your lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology is chilling. Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces. A boxing glove spreads the force over a larger surface area and causes more damage, as it also creates a stronger and harder surface to interact with the victims tissue than you hand. Boxing gloves are HEAVY. It is a struggle to even hold them up for a few minutes unless your very strong. They are meant to protect your hands because you dolt you will break your hands punching bone with bare knuckles. I have very small hands which makes it easier for me to punch people as the force becomes concentrated than an individual with larger paws. However, even I know that my hands will break if i start boxing. Even with gloves I have broken my left hand and snapped about 6 fingers. My hands are so ******* up when I went to get my fingerprints for my security clearance the guy doing it asked what was wrong with my fingers. Have you ever seen the hand or bones of an individual from the era of boxing where no gloves were worn? They dont even look human.

In summation. You sir insult me. I didnt even want to post in this thread.

I'm just ignoring your lack of knowledge regarding style in boxing, the necessity of rules, and a belief that boxing does not present effective guards and combinations. I am also going to ignore you inability to grasp the difference between a sport and a self defense method.

Thread won. Mods pls lock thx u v much.

[The Stranger]

it aint a real fight till someone pulls a knife or a gun. and if one of them got armor on its a battle.

[Vuk]

Bull. People throughout history have not fought in "boxing" style. The skull is unforgiving and will shatter your bare hand. Matches lasted that long because boxers kept their distance and threw safer punches.

People throughout history have punched each other in the face, and done it for sport. The sport of 'boxing' has evolved over the years, and at one time barely resembled what it has degraded to today.
Shatter your bare hand? Really? Is that why the Romans would use stiff leather thongs to fasten steel or lead plates over their knuckles?
I dare say that was a lot less forgiven (esp when thrown to an enemies skull), and still, they did not 'shatter' their hands.

[Strike For The South]

its grouped with brass knuckles....

[Whacker]

People throughout history have punched each other in the face, and done it for sport. The sport of 'boxing' has evolved over the years, and at one time barely resembled what it has degraded to today.
Shatter your bare hand? Really? Is that why the Romans would use stiff leather thongs to fasten steel or lead plates over their knuckles?
I dare say that was a lot less forgiven (esp when thrown to an enemies skull), and still, they did not 'shatter' their hands.

Seriously Vuk, come on.

He didn't use the 100% exact correct phrasing, but anyone who knows anything about fighting will know what he's talking about. Punching someone along most of their skull will most likely break bones in your hand, possibly very badly as in compound fractures, hence STFS saying "shatter".

Also, about Cent's point of gloves there to protect the boxer's hands. Was your response sarcasm, because that's how I read it... ? If so, then seriously bro? Ever heard of a boxers fracture? That's just one of the more combat injuries. Why do you think all major contact sport fighters wrap the crap out of their hands and then put on gloves beforehand? It's not just western boxing, look at muay thai, kickboxing, MMA in general, pankration, or any other combat sport. When we put on gloves to fight, it's to protect our own hands, not you or your face.

[Vuk]

Seriously Vuk, come on.

He didn't use the 100% exact correct phrasing, but anyone who knows anything about fighting will know what he's talking about. Punching someone along most of their skull will most likely break bones in your hand, possibly very badly as in compound fractures, hence STFS saying "shatter".

Also, about Cent's point of gloves there to protect the boxer's hands. Was your response sarcasm, because that's how I read it... ? If so, then seriously bro? Ever heard of a boxers fracture? That's just one of the more combat injuries. Why do you think all major contact sport fighters wrap the crap out of their hands and then put on gloves beforehand? It's not just western boxing, look at muay thai, kickboxing, MMA in general, pankration, or any other combat sport. When we put on gloves to fight, it's to protect our own hands, not you or your face.

I know that you can break your hand by punching someone's skull, but you are not supposed to be punching crown of the skull. If you condition your hands well, you will have no problem punching someone in the chin or nose hard enough to disorient them and possibly knock them out. Of course you punch differently when you don't wear gloves. You don't punch as hard, but you also don't need to.
Also, yeah, gloves protect your hand, but they also protect your opponent.

I'll tell you what Wacker, you should try something that my bros experimented with. Find a sparring partner, and one of you use 16 oz boxing gloves, and the other use 4 oz. UFC gloves. See who wins, then switch.
Then, one of you use just hand wraps, and the other use 4.oz UFC gloves. See who wins.
When my bros did this, the person with 'less protection' won every time. They didn't need to punch nearly as hard to do as much and more damage, so their punches were quicker and more abbreviated, and still had more of an impact.

I think that if you do that you will come away feeling as I do, that boxing without the 'protection' of gloves is far more effective for you.

[Strike For The South]

I'll tell you what Wacker, you should try something that my bros experimented with. Find a sparring partner, and one of you use 16 oz boxing gloves, and the other use 4 oz. UFC gloves. See who wins, then switch.
Then, one of you use just hand wraps, and the other use 4.oz UFC gloves. See who wins.
When my bros did this, the person with 'less protection' won every time. They didn't need to punch nearly as hard to do as much and more damage, so their punches were quicker and more abbreviated, and still had more of an impact.

The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.

You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.

[Vuk]

The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.

You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.

16 oz. Boxing gloves have a lot more padding on the knuckles and dissipate a lot more of the force than 4 oz. MMA gloves.
Let me explain to you the mechanics behind damaging someone with a punch, as you obviously have no idea.
Depending on where you punch someone, you need different amounts of energy to damage them significantly. You goal is to transfer as much KE as possible into the smallest place possible over the shortest time possible.
The smaller the POC (Point of Contact), the more locational damage you will do. This of course goes both ways, as the smaller a part of your body you hit with, the great a chance you have of damaging it if striking a hard surface.
The overall amount of energy you transfer into your opponent is almost insignificant. What really matters is energy over time. You can do a lot more damage with much less energy transfered over a far shorter time than you can more energy over a longer time.
With bare knuckles and a fast punch, you have a very quick transfer of a lot of energy. With gloves, your POC is a lot larger, allowing you to strike with increased KE at hard targets, but because of the padding, this energy is transfered over a longer period of time (thus lessening its affect on your opponent). Also, a large POC means that you do less locational damage as well as less damage from a fluid shock wave. The more padding, the larger the POC, and the more time it takes to full transfer energy.

You think I am lying? Try it out yourself. Give a friend a pair of each gloves and have him punch you in the gut. Tell me which does more damage. Then have him do it bareknuckle, and tell me which was the worst.

[Strike For The South]

You seem to be assuming there are no bones in the hand. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HAND IF YOU TRY TO BOX WITHOUT GLOVES.

[Vuk]

You seem to be assuming there are no bones in the hand. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HAND IF YOU TRY TO BOX WITHOUT GLOVES.

Then I guess I have no bones in my hand strike, because I have punched people when wearing no gloves, and I did not break my hand. I've also been punched in the face by people who didn't break their hands, and I have seen it happen to other people.
A person has a flexible neck, and it absorbs a lot of the force of a punch. Also, when punched in the face, it is a person's natural reaction to follow the punch backward most times.
Strike, not only my own experience and observations, but also history are against you. You are falling into the big lie of modern sports fighting that is meant to cater to the lowest possible denominator. And people currently involved in modern sports fighting believe the lie religiously. They think they are much smarter and physically superior to their predecessors, and that 'modern sports medicine' is the ultimate source of truth. Modern sports fighting is designed to make the most money possible, with the least risk and work possible, while attracting as many people as possible.

[Vuk]

UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.

Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.

Yeah, it happens, but that is fighting. Shite happens. You can hurt yourself grappling, kicking, kneeing, etc. The chance of you breaking your hand is not very high, but the chance of breaking someone's face is. Of course if modern people conditioned for striking hard surfaces more, it would happen a lot less.