Please depict the Gauls accurately this time (duplicate from TWcenter)

[Vuk]

I find this threads useless and at fault comparing what CA used to be at the time of RTW, to what is now (I didn't see such generalizations or stereotypes portrayed in later titles)

Did you not see M2TW then? How about TWS2?

[Arjos]

They have to work on that edge of hollywood style/accuracy and the former is the one that pays big bucks...
And S2TW wasn't as bad as don't know arcani XD

[Nelson]

I would like to see oppida properly fortified. They had much better walls than the stockades they get in Rome I. IIRC, the Romans pretty much gave up trying to go through Gallic walls only to go over them at great expense.

[Fisherking]

The misconceptions and myths we have of the Celts is so pervasive that it makes it very difficult to sort truth from the xenophobic ravings of the Romans and Greeks. To them those who spoke other languages or didn’t share their culture were more animal than man and likely had little to show the cultured and civilized peoples.

Roman and Greek writings tell us that the Celts were the preeminent barbarians. They were the Boogey Men that mothers frightened their children. They dressed in skins, planted no crops, held wives in common, and painted themselves blue. Nothing much above animals screaming into battle nude, excepting the paint, of course. The Greeks of all people tell us that they had no interest in the opposite sex and disdained the company of women. Yet somehow they managed to reproduce and populate most of Europe, asexually I presume.

Am I being too harsh? The Classical World did have an overblown view of themselves, rather much like the vestigial views of the stereotypical Italian waiter. But then you have episodes like this: http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/201...tian-genocide/

What is more interesting is that all historic focus is on naked Celtic warriors while the Roman say that they took almost all of their military kit from the Celts. Helmets, swords, shields, chain mail, the list goes on. The Greeks and Macedonians tell us of them fighting in shield walls very much like the Romans. Caesar also talks of phalanx formations against his cavalry when fighting the Helvetii. We have recovered Celtic armor. We know they made breastplates, chain mail and one very distinctive type which was scale sewn to linen over chain mail. That sounds much like a brigantine over chain. Transitional armor of the middle ages.

I don’t dispute that Celtic farmers could not afford much armor or that some warriors went to battle mostly naked to prove their bravery but if they made such good armor are we still to believe they never made any use of it? I suppose it was good that some Celtic Chief showed up dressed in his grave goods so the Romans could copy it. Yet most of the records only say they fought as mobs, albeit mobs who carried standards, for what ever reason…certainly not to distinguish between units, of course.

We have descriptions of battles stating that the clothing of the enemy gave them protection from arrow and javelins. Most descriptions are very vague. Tacitus wrote that their strength lies in their infantry but some had strong a cavalry arm as well.

Much of the Barbarian motif is false propaganda, most likely for political reasons. We have no reason to believe that they only dressed in animal skins, held wives in common, and we can label a lie to the grow no crops easily. Britain and America did the same to the Germans of the First World War, taking the most cultured country in Europe and passing them off as barbarous warmongers. But that image, still in large part, persists to this day.

If they were such undisciplined fighters why were the hired by every power of the time that could manage it? Why are their cities and towns so well protected. Why did they have coinage, paved roads, and a trade network from the Atlantic to the Black Sea? The Romans not only took their kit, they also took their infantry tactics, shield wall and short sword. Roman Cavalry adopted the spath from the Celts. We have some mention of them rotating fresher troops to the for of battle and resting the others.

In describing the difference between Celtic and Celtiberian warriors it was said that the later wore leather and bronze or bronze scale instead of chainmail.

It is also interesting to note that Celts produced steel. This was an art the Romans themselves never mastered but continued to rely upon the conquered craftsmen after they were integrated into the Republic and later Empire. They also came up with pattern welding.

The Romans didn’t learn everything the Celts had to offer, however. Among the things they rejected was the iron Celtic plow. While Roman agriculture was advanced by Celtic contacts, to reach its highpoint in the late Republic and early Empire periods, it was not what it could have been. It not only cut deeper into the soil but also turned it at the same time, eliminating the need to double plow. It would seem while Pliny though the Celtic Plow superior to the Roman it was abandoned, seemingly because they though that iron would poison the soil. They did take their harvesting machine but crop rotation and fertilizers were dropped. The iron plow had to wait until the 1700s to be reintroduced in the west. In China it came into being around 450AD. Another item they seem to have disdained was soap.
Of their engineering and architecture we know little, except, they had a very good road network, built using stone or wood, their city walls we made in such a way as to make breeching by siege weapons in effective, they built with stone or wood and some buildings may have had at least three levels.

It was the Celts who improved the wheel, giving it spokes and the iron tire. They also improved the wheel hub and used iron axels. Their design remained unchanged until the invention of the pneumatic tire. They brought the world the wooden barrel too. When was the last time you saw something packaged in an amphora?

It is a myth that they did not write. They used the scripts of the Greeks and later the Roman. We have inscriptions in Gaul using the Greek alphabet and going back to roughly the same time as the first sack of Rome.

What they didn’t leave were any in-depth records, long lists of their achievements, and a bank of literature. If it was not inscribed in metal or stone it didn’t survive. But what we do know from the Romans themselves is that Gauls were in great demand as tutors and educators. More so even than the Greeks during the Empire.

Far from being the backward barbarians of Roman writings, they were sought after to teach their children. What higher recommendation could you give them?

[Gerula]

No offence, but If CA will remember only this part, where GAULS bring 300.000 mens to fight against of 40,000 Caesar's legionaries, do not expect that this time they will make them better, will remain as an unorganized gang of barbarians who fought with the Romans and lost.

[Fisherking]

Oh yes, right! Caesar would never exaggerate numbers.

What we do know of their tactics is that if they had the logistics to mass 300,000 men they would have enveloped the Romans and awaited them to attack or catch them in a massive ambush and annihilated them. Since this didn’t happen we can assume the odds were fairly even, perhaps 3 to 2 or even 2 to 1.

We know that Caesar defeated an army twice his size at Pharsalus but it was also veterans against recruits and conscripts.

[quadalpha]

Anyone have the loci classici for the more outlandish Greek and Roman descriptions of Celts?

The Celts obviously had to fight naked if the sneaky Romans took all of their military kit!

[Gerula]

Oh yes, right! Caesar would never exaggerate numbers.

Yes I think you have right, except this part.
We talk about an empire with many plots and betrayals, don't you think that they found at least some of its soldiers for money to run quickly and tell the true to Caesar's rivals: "Look, Caesar is a liar, we just beat 50,000" .They could use this against him, so definitely I do not think anyone lied about those numbers in my opinion.

[Graphic]

Did you not see M2TW then? How about TWS2?

I'm fine with the stretches in vanilla Shogun 2. If they didn't have hero units, a bunch of warrior monks, ninjas etc. and it was all realistic, you'd basically be left with a handful of generic spear, bow and cavalry units. Even the idea of a group of samurai charging the enemy with their katanas was fantasy.

They did go back to reality with Fall of the Samurai though because they could, which is a pretty down to earth game along with Empire and especially Napoleon. I think CA wants to be down to earth whenever possible but will stretch things if reality isn't enough for varied gameplay. With all the totally different cultures in Rome 2 I don't see them being forced down the road of fantasy again. I think they've grown out of fantasy units for fantasy's sake.

[latinos]

OH HAi WAngchang!

Lol I've already seen this OP in TWcenter. Fully agreed with what was said BTW. I, like feel, feel that the celts are too often stuck with the generic barbarian design, and that their town are unfairly depicted, and don't get the proper attention. And didn't knew if I should made a thread or not.

But then I saw that you already did one, and that you exposed the matter way better than I could have possibly done. I just don't want to see this thread burried under the other threads, and it seems that since your banned, this tread may have some troubles to be kept at the TWcenter front page.

It's unfair, the gauls don't get the attention they deserve on the forums, your the only one so far to have stand up for their cause. So I wanted to congratulate you. And I fully support you. I would really like to help too, so if you want I could try to talk to some moderator on TWcenter.

what do you think?

PS : BTW my name is latino in TWcenter, u are akarnir right?

[Andres]

Hello and welcome @wangchang

An interesting OP and as a descendent of the bravest of all Gauls, I can only hope my ancestors will be depicted more accurately and not as a bunch of unwashed savages like the previous time.

You seem to have a genuine interest in history; if you want deeper historical debates, then I'm sure the guys over at the Monastery will be more than happy to welcome you.

[Catiline]

You're descended from Asterix?

[wangchang]

Hello and welcome @wangchang

An interesting OP and as a descendent of the bravest of all Gauls, I can only hope my ancestors will be depicted more accurately and not as a bunch of unwashed savages like the previous time.

You seem to have a genuine interest in history; if you want deeper historical debates, then I'm sure the guys over at the Monastery will be more than happy to welcome you.

Haha , I guess you are a Belgian. Am I right?

[wangchang]

OH HAi WAngchang!

Lol I've already seen this OP in TWcenter. Fully agreed with what was said BTW. I, like feel, feel that the celts are too often stuck with the generic barbarian design, and that their town are unfairly depicted, and don't get the proper attention. And didn't knew if I should made a thread or not.

But then I saw that you already did one, and that you exposed the matter way better than I could have possibly done. I just don't want to see this thread burried under the other threads, and it seems that since your banned, this tread may have some troubles to be kept at the TWcenter front page.

It's unfair, the gauls don't get the attention they deserve on the forums, your the only one so far to have stand up for their cause. So I wanted to congratulate you. And I fully support you. I would really like to help too, so if you want I could try to talk to some moderator on TWcenter.

what do you think?

PS : BTW my name is latino in TWcenter, u are akarnir right?

Oh i haven't red that post until now. WOW of course i'm interested. If you could explain my situation to the moderators I would be more than happy. Because each time I try to create an account to explain me, they just ban me without warning and without replying.

Ok so here is the whole story : If I remember correctly, my first account was zozor. I did some pretty pertinent participation, wrote some post and ideas for the mod third age total war. One of the ideas was to have single men unit for the heroes of the mod. Anyway. But at some point I left my room, with my brother inside (we share the same room). And that's when he decided to go on my account ( i had not log off) and post a lot of spamming : he literally spammed 10 threads with repetitive and immature post. When I returned, he had left the room, and I could see that I had been banned. I tried to create another account, to explain the situation to the moderators, but they banned it again, because it was an alt. But it makes no sense because I had no other than to create an alt to explain the situation.
They should have understand that there was a big incoherence between the pertinent threads and post I made, and this nonsense spamming. They should have doubt that there was a problem, and that the guy who spammed and the guy who made the good participation were two different person. It was obvious that someone else was using my account.

So then I tried to create another account, which they again banned, without even replying to me . Then I made another one : this one wasn't banned, so I continued to post ideas and stuff. But then they must have noticed that the ideas were the same as my previous account, so they decided to ban this one too : JUST BECAUSE IT POSTED THE SAME IDEA AS ANOTHER BANNED ACCOUNT. That just shows you how fair the moderators are one these forums (sarcasm, they aren't fair at all).
Then I created another account, and again, because the writing style and participation was the same, they banned me again.

They never realized that I was insisting to return to those forums to post my ideas and discuss them, not to spam. It should be obvious, since each time I recreated another account, I made comprehensive demonstrations of my ideas. So it was clear that the spamming incident was just an isolated incident, and was probably done by someone who had stole my acount.

Yet they still don't want to hear anything. I actually know the two administrators that keeps banning me and ignoring me : Gigantus and GrnEyedDvl. Those two should be reasoned.

So yeah , if you can do this for me, you will have my gratitude and the gratitude of the Gauls :P.

Thanks for helping me. I really look op to you to defend me :)

Again, thanks a lot, you are like a light in te darkness for me (how poetic :P).

[quadalpha]

Well, you know what they say about a people getting the government they deserve. The state of the mods over there just goes to show all the more you're better off banned.

[wangchang]

Well, you know what they say about a people getting the government they deserve. The state of the mods over there just goes to show all the more you're better off banned.

Yeah, I agree on some point, I prefer totalwar.org.

Yet I think it's good to keep this thread in the 3 big forums, so that all the three communities can be aware, the views and reply there are, the more there is chance of it getting noticed.

Add to that that TWcenter is the biggest community and that it's there that craig and jack lusted come the more often. SO even if I dislike it, it's better if this thread is also on TWcenter, because it is there that it's the more likely to get noticed.

But anyway, here i'm not banned and the community is cool, so I will try to keep this thread active with debates and ideas :) .

[Catiline]

Chaps let's keep this on topic please. Anyone for CA reading this is going to get switched off and give up pretty instantly by a discssion of alt account history and the politics and moderation policies of a different forum.