Euro Area

[Fragony]

Your posts and rants on international socialism sound a lot like Breivik.

and that sounds a lot like the international socialism

[Jolt]

and that sounds a lot like the international socialism

Actually I don't see anywhere in the part you quoted any affirmation of any ideology whatsoever. Whereas your posts are filled with them. So I'm not really following.

[Fragony]

Actually I don't see anywhere in the part you quoted any affirmation of any ideology whatsoever. Whereas your posts are filled with them. So I'm not really following.

Not required. It's kinda funny you say I sound like Breivik, that's the sort of thing the international socialism would do. The garlic slackers for example accuse us we are being hold hostage by Wilders because they don't get any free money the second they furiously demand it, we are supposedly not looking for solutions but only out for trouble by not giving them money. Germany always gets it worse if they don't give away free money these garlic slackers oh so love their Godwins.

Ah, another gem, from Italy's pm this time. Northern countries shouldn't be hold back by their national parlements when it comes to giving away free money, or war and all that, darkest days you get it

Why do we hate peace so much? That plumb eastblock workhorse Merkel may be sensitive for that but we aren't, any pro-euro party is walking on eggs the elections are comming up and anything pro-international socialism might just get a serious beating

[InsaneApache]

Simply amazing. The EU ***** up so the answer is more EU. Incredible.

[Fragony]

Simply amazing. The EU ***** up so the answer is more EU. Incredible.

Ain't it

[Jolt]

Not required. It's kinda funny you say I sound like Breivik, that's the sort of thing the international socialism would do. The garlic slackers for example accuse us we are being hold hostage by Wilders because they don't get any free money the second they furiously demand it, we are supposedly not looking for solutions but only out for trouble by not giving them money. Germany always gets it worse if they don't give away free money these garlic slackers oh so love their Godwins.

No, you're not understanding. International Socialism isn't a person. It's an ideology. An ideology doesn't do anything. And you might notice that's what everyone with eyes, and a mind would do. His life attempts against Socialist politicians and murder of dozens of youths in a Socialist camp, all in the name of what he and you see as a vast worldwide socialist conspiracy to promote multiculturalism and immigration and ultimately destroy your countries or cultures or societies, along with the usual Communist State control trying force, you brave freedom fighters, to do what they want. That is what both of you are proponents for. That is what you are talking about with your International Socialism rants. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to follow you.

And yes, it's required, as I've been angrily called a Fascist for claiming that Salazar was actually a pretty competent administrator. And likewise, that statement in itself doesn't affirm any ideology, just like this one.

Also, what are the "garlic slackers"? Am I a "garlic slacker"?

And finally, the question of free money; There hasn't been any. The bailouts are loans, which have ear marks and preconditions. That's right. Everyone who lent money is already recieving the interest over the amount. If the interest rate was 0% (e.g. free money, that still needs to be given back, hence even then, not really free money), then the fiscal pressure (e.g. the amount of money flowing out of State coffers every month to pay the yields on the bailouts and yields and maturities of previous bonds) on the southern countries would have be colossally reduced.

If you notice the ECB's most recent financial updates, the financial turnover of the organization has been huge thanks to these bailouts.

[Jolt]

Double-post.

[Fragony]

No, you're not understanding. International Socialism isn't a person. It's an ideology. An ideology doesn't do anything. And you might notice that's what everyone with eyes, and a mind would do. His life attempts against Socialist politicians and murder of dozens of youths in a Socialist camp, all in the name of what he and you see as a vast worldwide socialist conspiracy to promote multiculturalism and immigration and ultimately destroy your countries or cultures or societies, along with the usual Communist State control trying force, you brave freedom fighters, to do what they want. That is what both of you are proponents for. That is what you are talking about with your International Socialism rants. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to follow you.

Yeah, funny you mentioned it I was just about to go on a killing spree, but first coffee. Do you know who also drinked coffee, nobody less than Adolf Hitler. Yes I am guilty by association.

[Jolt]

Simply amazing. The EU ***** up so the answer is more EU. Incredible.

Please. Where in this has the EU as an organization faltered? The EU itself has no teeth. If the European organizations are mostly sui generis and run from behind the scenes right now, by the major member-states, who call all the shots and decide what will REALLY be implemented or not, with only the European organizations having very little to do but try to pressure towards a certain path, and in the end, accepting the consensus of the member-states. That is ultimately what happened with the violations of the Stability and Growth Pact. When Portugal broke the pact, we were going to be handed down severe sanctions. But once it was found out that Germany had also broken the pact, the whole sanctions threats affair dropped all of a sudden. This is not due to a failure to act, but rather due to the fact that the member-states have the authority and the financing of the European organizations, and when the major ones want to change the rules, then the rules will in fact change. Realpolitik. European bureaucrats can do little but curse to themselves that such does happen.

Negotiations in the European Council are conducts by each country's Heads of State/Government. The leaders of the European organizations themselves have been pushing for a speedy resolution for the crisis, but they have no actual jurisdiction to implement the necessary measures. The needed authority and capital to solve this crisis is in the hands of the member-states.

[Fragony]

Please. Where in this has the EU as an organization faltered? The EU itself has no teeth. If the European organizations are mostly sui generis and run from behind the scenes right now, by the major member-states, who call all the shots and decide what will REALLY be implemented or not, with only the European organizations having very little to do but try to pressure towards a certain path, and in the end, accepting the consensus of the member-states. That is ultimately what happened with the violations of the Stability and Growth Pact. When Portugal broke the pact, we were going to be handed down severe sanctions. But once it was found out that Germany had also broken the pact, the whole sanctions threats affair dropped all of a sudden. This is not due to a failure to act, but rather due to the fact that the member-states have the authority and the financing of the European organizations, and when the major ones want to change the rules, then the rules will in fact change. Realpolitik. European bureaucrats can do little but curse to themselves that such does happen.

Negotiations in the European Council are conducts by each country's Heads of State/Government. The leaders of the European organizations themselves have been pushing for a speedy resolution for the crisis, but they have no actual jurisdiction to implement the necessary measures. The needed authority and capital to solve this crisis is in the hands of the member-states.

Do you know who also negotiated

[Jolt]

Yeah, funny you mentioned it I was just about to go on a killing spree, but first coffee. Do you know who also drinked coffee, nobody less than Adolf Hitler. Yes I am guilty by association.

Different proponents of the same ideologies act in different ways. No one person acts in the same way. All Communists who had a zealous faith in the revolutionary struggle of the workers to establish a class free society and expropriate all the rich. Some went through the violent method, while some believed it would be better to do it in a peaceful and legal way. Doesn't mean the whole lot of them aren't lunatics or Communists just because they disagree on how to act on their ideology. Likewise here.

[Fragony]

Different proponents of the same ideologies act in different ways. No one person acts in the same way. All Communists who had a zealous faith in the revolutionary struggle of the workers to establish a class free society and expropriate all the rich. Some went through the violent method, while some believed it would be better to do it in a peaceful and legal way. Doesn't mean the whole lot of them aren't lunatics or Communists just because they disagree on how to act on their ideology. Likewise here.

Do you know who also had an ideoligy, why do you hate jews?

[Jolt]

Do you know who also negotiated

At the European Council? There's the President of the Council (Van Rompuy), President of the Commision (Barroso) and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs (Ashton)

Basically the only one with explicite executive powers there is Barroso, and if he doesn't have the support of either the major member-states (Merkel and Sarkozy were opposed to a number of measures Barroso proposed and wanted to implement during the onset of the crisis) or a large collection of the smaller and medium member-states (All of them which are divided on what to do) to throw his weight around, then he has no consensus support to negotiate anything and stand up to Merkel or Sarkozy/Hollande. If he has no support in those meetings, then he must be forced to accept whatever deliberations come out of those meetings and act on them. Same thing for Van Rompuy and Ashton.

[Jolt]

Do you know who also had an ideoligy, why do you hate jews?

Unless you're implying that the only ideology that has ever existed is National Socialism, I fail to see the point of the post.

[SoFarSoGood]

That's why it isn't a country, and it has never made any claims of being a country. It is an International Organization, like the WTO and IMF, and once you sign in, not only are you forced to follow its rules, but you're also forced to dish out payments to them. It is a regional bloc, started and built on the cooperation between European political leaders. In fact, the EU, when compared with any other international organization or regional bloc, it is far more democratic.

Do you not understand that fiscal union, which is now the only 'solution' to this planned 'crisis', means that your vote matters not a fig? It means the end of national or any democracy in Europe... You will have 3 options to complain:

A. Petition you masters (cos you don't appoint them and can't 'un-elect' them) and hope they listen kindly...

B. Stop working... which is why a good pool of unemployed is useful.

C. Take up arms.

I repeat Gladstones comment made in 1891: "The Finance of the country is intimately associated with the liberties of the Country...if the House of Commons can by any possibility lose the power of the grants of public money, depend upon it your liberty will be worth very little…”

'Fiscal union' is precisely losing control of your nations finances. Why do you think the EU has a flag, an anthem, a seat at the UN, foreign affairs minister (who has never been elected by anyone once in her life) and plans to have it's own army? Please read the Lisbon Treaty and do some research... you will be shocked.

[SoFarSoGood]

Such delightfully predictable bigotry. But so this commentary doesn't pass on outright, I'll refer you one major thing: Schengen Agreement (And by inherence, if you like, the European Internal Market, which is far larger and more valuable than anything the Commonwealth could ever hope to offer the UK in the next 50 or more years). And I could pull dozens more examples of positive measures from the EU.

Sorry but wrong... Commonwealth GDP and share of world growth is increasing. The EUs has declined and is predicted to continue doing so. Why? Because it's a political idealism trying to work in a real world. Realities and ideals don't fit; you can force your ideals only so long.

[Fragony]

Unless you're implying that the only ideology that has ever existed is National Socialism, I fail to see the point of the post.

But you just admitted you would repeat the holocaust, not in so many words but still

[SoFarSoGood]

Well they have to pay out for Greece before 20th of August or it can't pay the interest on existing bonds which will mean default #2 in Greece and make them totaly unsustainable. Nobody will touch them with a medical bargepole so they will have to do the impossible... leave the euro - and recover their democracy!

[Kralizec]

I would love to have something positive to say about the EU, but I honestly can't think of a single thing.

No, you don't. Your opinions are firmly anti-EU. Which is fine, but don't try to paint yourself as some neutral spectator to present your biases as impartial findings.

Not required. It's kinda funny you say I sound like Breivik, that's the sort of thing the international socialism would do. The garlic slackers for example accuse us we are being hold hostage by Wilders because they don't get any free money the second they furiously demand it, we are supposedly not looking for solutions but only out for trouble by not giving them money. Germany always gets it worse if they don't give away free money these garlic slackers oh so love their Godwins.

Garlic-slackers...I thought you said you were against those stereotypes, or at least as far as the Greeks were concerned.

There's no such thing as the "international socialism" you refer to. It's just one massive strawman that exists solely in your head and that of like minded people. EU politicians are from a wide variety of political backgrounds. Suggesting that all your political opponents are essentially the same, that they all adhere to some made-up ideology is one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book.

Yes, you do sound like Breivik. You both parrot Wilders and a variety of other eurosceptic and anti-jihadist talking heads. As I recall you even admitted on this board that while you don't approve of his methods, you share many of Breivik's political opinions.

[Fragony]

you share many of Breivik's political opinions.

So, just about anybody who's against the multicultural policy and internationalist agenda does. Europhiles like to pretend it's all about the economy but it doesn't take a genius to see that economy is second to ideoligy.

[SoFarSoGood]

Yes, you do sound like Breivik. You both parrot Wilders and a variety of other eurosceptic and anti-jihadist talking heads. As I recall you even admitted on this board that while you don't approve of his methods, you share many of Breivik's political opinions.

There is a vast difference between education and enforcement. You may share Breiviks worries but abhor his method. Doesn't make you a 'Nazi' just makes you worried and wish to share your worries. Stop throwing insults without reason.

[Kralizec]

There is a vast difference between education and enforcement. You may share Breiviks worries but abhor his method. Doesn't make you a 'Nazi' just makes you worried and wish to share your worries. Stop throwing insults without reason.

There is a vast difference between:
A) being against EU membership, wanting a more restrictive immigration policy and whatnot, i.e. political views and a normal grasp of reality
B) believing in a monolithic cabal composed of liberals, conservatives, social-democrats, christian-democrats and greens who collectively scheme for the overthrow of democracy, the destruction of western culture and implementation of "international socialism".

Furunculus would be a good example of A.

Breivik is an example of B, and so is Fragony by his own admission. Even if you dissaprove of Breivik's violent methods you're delusional if you share his worldview.

[Fragony]

oh lollipop Krazzie, must be scary that there are over 1.2 million Breivik's here. But then again, there aren't. There are 1.2 million though who don't absolutely adore giving away our say on our own policies to a Flemish ferret who looks like an owl who just dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman.

[Kralizec]

I imagine that not every PVV voter believes in all the nonsense Martin Bosma excretes from his mouth. Some of them have a specific issue that they care about deeply, such as the EU, and therefore vote PVV despite knowing that it's a party with loony ideas. And criminal records. And undisclosed foreign sponsors.

Here's a challenge for you: list some ideological differences between Breivik and Wilders. There are bound to be some, but not particulary significant ones. After Breivik's massacre Wilders repeatedly said the following: we're different from Breivik, we never called for violence. I've never seen Wilders or any other PVV person distance himself from Breivik's ideas, however.

[Fragony]

I've never seen Wilders or any other PVV person distance himself from Breivik's ideas, however.

Of course not, as they roughly agree. If I have to change my views because some asshole went on a killing spree you are out of luck.

[Kralizec]

Then why doesn't he say so?

Why can't he just say "I share Breivik's ideas, but he used violence and that is wrong"? The Animal Party wouldn't deny, if asked, that they share goals with the Animal Liberation Front or whatever.

[Fragony]

Then why doesn't he say so?

Why can't he just say "I share Breivik's ideas, but he used violence and that is wrong"? The Animal Party wouldn't deny, if asked, that they share goals with the Animal Liberation Front or whatever.

Bet they would if an Animal Front Liberation guy went on a killing spree like Breivik did. Some things you just shouldn't have to feel responsible for. Breivik is (hopefully) a lone idiot. You want the populist right to take responsibility for something they didn't do, would you do that?

[Kralizec]

I think there's another reason: a lot of the PVV voters, maybe a majority, still do not realize that Breiviks and Wilders' views are pretty much identical.

And yes, that's perfectly plausible. Two years ago a survey showed that a large percentage of PVV voters believed that Wilders actually was a minister, which gives us a pretty good idea how well informed they are.

Wilders' ideas, when collected and spelt out like they were in Breivik's manifesto, are simply not plausible or attractive to the vast majority of people. Which is why he denies there was any resemblance and maintains that Breivik was insane.

[Fragony]

I think there's another reason: a lot of the PVV voters, maybe a majority, still do not realize that Breiviks and Wilders' views are pretty much identical.

And yes, that's perfectly plausible. Two years ago a survey showed that a large percentage of PVV voters believed that Wilders actually was a minister, which gives us a pretty good idea how well informed they are.

Wilders' ideas, when collected and spelt out like they were in Breivik's manifesto, are simply not plausible or attractive to the vast majority of people. Which is why he denies there was any resemblance and maintains that Breivik was insane.

They don't have to appeal to the majority of the people that's democracy. Wilders is only mentioned in the manifesto by the way that's all, when Breivik started writing it Wilders was still a member of your own liberal party, nobody had ever heard of him. Feel free to punch anyone in the face who comletely distantiates himselve because the Utoya shooting showed that there is actually rightwing-terrorism, but I don't like how eager his oppononents are see SEE? SEEEEEE?-technically. Breivik is a right-wing terrorist, no debating that, of what use would it be it's pretty obvious he is. But he is exactly that first of all. Mr Wilders is a little bit sharper then the rest and little bit better at putting on the hurt when others would rather go home for dinner. Status quo doesn't like it if you do that, it upsets their comfortable bliss.

[rory_20_uk]

To say that those in the EU are disperate is disingenuous. Yes, they might have very different views, but they nevertheless all enjoy the gravy train that the EU is.

That the EU has been extended repeatedly with little more than a cursory glance at the countries' finances against shows this is mainly ideological, as is the scrapping of control over movement of peoples which has again had ramifications that those who instigated either did not think of or just don't care about.

There are good aspects of the EU. Sadly, these do not require the EU:

Free trade? A multilateral treaty.
Military alliance? NATO.
Agricultural subsidies? Either nationally, or scrapped as a market-distorting bad idea.
Money for depressed regions? International aid. As that's what it is.