Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

[Lemur]

So our local chiropractor has posted this thing about how nobody needs to have their children vaccinated. Which, as a parent, fills me with rage. I don't mind people doing their raw-food vegan sweat-lodge accupressure thing ... until it endangers me and mine. See herd immunity for reference; even though my children all have their shots, if enough of my neighbors buy into this insanity, they'll be putting my kids at risk.

How much fun will it be if every summer I wait to see if my children get paralyzed? Right?

Two questions:

1. Do any Orgahs believe that immunizations are a guvmint conspiracy? What led you to believe this? How do you weigh the conspiracy theory against the real and well-documented evils of, say, meningitis?
2. What should I do to the chiropractor? I'm already blasting him on his FB page. Should I also resort to tarring and feathering? Public shaming? A good, old-fashioned beatdown?

An example of the kind of person I would like to punch in the face, repeatedly:

[HoreTore]

Paranoia.

Calmy and gently ask him to seek professional help.

[rvg]

You lost me at

...our local chiropractor...

Quack-quack. Quackity-quack.

[drone]

Flu vaccinations, I'll buy that as a corporate conspiracy and unnecessary. Polio and the like, just get the jab.

It's bad enough we have misused antibiotics and have kids bathing in triclosan. Opting out of the basic vaccinations is just going to add more threats to the already weakened immune systems of our youth today.

[Sir Moody]

What you need to do is the exact same thing he is - put the information out there

when he posts the "anti-vac" garbage, you post the truth and back it up with evidence - lets see him bring out his...

try this for starters - http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

[Visor]

It's odd that I see this thread at the same time as I find this thread on the straight dope on vaccines. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...8#post15388358

Not really relevant, but who knows. You might learn something.

[Sir Moody]

Flu vaccinations, I'll buy that as a corporate conspiracy and unnecessary. Polio and the like, just get the jab.

It's bad enough we have misused antibiotics and have kids bathing in triclosan. Opting out of the basic vaccinations is just going to add more threats to the already weakened immune systems of our youth today.

Flu is a killer virus for people at risk - why would it be unnecessary to vaccinate those who could potentially die for it? now vaccinating everyone is silly - the Flu vaccines at best will only reduce symptoms and most people will be fine

[drone]

Flu is a killer virus for people at risk - why would it be unnecessary to vaccinate those who could potentially die for it? now vaccinating everyone is silly - the Flu vaccines at best will only reduce symptoms and most people will be fine

And "The Flu" is a family of fairly mutable virii. The non-pandemic influenza vaccine is just a guess by makers as to what will be the most likely of the 3 strains to pop up in a given year. It's a crapshoot, but every year they try to push it on everyone, not just the old folks. Then I have to put up with the wife feeling like hell for 2 days because she was stupid enough to get one, even though the same thing happened to her the year before that, and the year before that, and so on.

[Greyblades]

Forward them the first part of this.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmm Chiropractor nuff said really

[a completely inoffensive name]

As far as I am concerned, anti-vaccine advocates are terrorists. They use terror to endanger people.

[Vuk]

You are off your flying rocker Lemur. You should seek professional help.
FYI, I've never gotten a shot in my life. Do you think I am endagering your kids?

[Montmorency]

Vuk endangers everyone.

[Kralizec]

I always thought that immunity meant...well, that you're immune. The only way unvaccinated kids would be a threat if it were a virus that mutates quickly enough to make the vaccination obsolete.

That said, parents who don't vaccinate* their kids are A) free riders B) idiots, whose behaviour borders on child abuse

(*for the essentials like polio and whatnot)

[Lemur]

FYI, I've never gotten a shot in my life. Do you think I am endagering your kids?

Yes, you are a threat to my children. No vaccine is 100% effective, but if enough of the population gets vaccinated, the virus/bacteria can't get a proper burn going in the populace. So if an individual comes down with the disease, it fails to spread.

Even though the vaccines do not give 100% immunity, in aggregate they act as if they do if enough of the herd gets vaccinated. See herd immunity for further reading. Sample:

"Vaccines are never 100% effective. Some people are genetically unable to respond to the vaccine, some have immunodeficiencies that preclude receiving vaccines or developing a response to the vaccine, some haven’t gotten around to vaccination or are too young to receive a vaccine. If you vaccinate a large number of people, besides preventing disease in an individual, it helps protect the vulnerable in a population. Vaccines prevent disease propagation."

I always thought that immunity meant...well, that you're immune. The only way unvaccinated kids would be a threat if it were a virus that mutates quickly enough to make the vaccination obsolete.

See answer above. The whooping cough vaccine, for example, is believed to have a 64% effectiveness rate. If enough kids get the vaccine, however, the virus is effectively stopped dead. But only if enough of the population gets vaccinated.

So Vuk, the local chiropractor, and the lady in that YouTube video are all endangering my children through a willful act of premeditated stupidity.

[Xiahou]

So our local chiropractor has posted this thing about how nobody needs to have their children vaccinated. Which, as a parent, fills me with rage. I don't mind people doing their raw-food vegan sweat-lodge accupressure thing ... until it endangers me and mine. See herd immunity for reference; even though my children all have their shots, if enough of my neighbors buy into this insanity, they'll be putting my kids at risk.

How much fun will it be if every summer I wait to see if my children get paralyzed? Right?

Two questions:

1. Do any Orgahs believe that immunizations are a guvmint conspiracy? What led you to believe this? How do you weigh the conspiracy theory against the real and well-documented evils of, say, meningitis?
2. What should I do to the chiropractor? I'm already blasting him on his FB page. Should I also resort to tarring and feathering? Public shaming? A good, old-fashioned beatdown?

An example of the kind of person I would like to punch in the face, repeatedly:

The person in your video is what I classify as "dangerously stupid". I stopped watching when she said there was no reason for her child to get sick in the winter because they always make sure she's covered up.

1. No.
2. Are there any chiropractors who aren't loons? I mean, I believe that some of the physical therapy stuff they do can be beneficial but all of them seem to subscribe to nutty unsubstantiated BS now...

As for what to do... Does your local school district and/or department of health require vaccinations before children can attend school? If not, why not? If so, the idiots can't do much damage.

[Major Robert Dump]

Vuk you live in the boondocks and do not coohort with proper society, you do not count

An annual flu shot has never prevented me from getting the flu in some shape or fashion. But I also have a higher tolerance for pain and suffering than most people, so when I do get the flu I can still function and work, even without medicine, although on several occasions in my life I havebeen forced to go home by my boss.

As for the really bad stuff, I don't see the big deal. Although I never cared for Gov Perry, I thought he got a raw deal with that HPV shot thing, which shows just how ignorant Americans are about the STDs we all carry and our women dying of preventable cancer

I do think there is a certain level of conspiring going on in the pharma market, but more from the FDA approval and commercial end. I don't really see a conspiracy in the push for people to get vaccinated from deadly childhood diseases.

[Lemur]

Does your local school district and/or department of health require vaccinations before children can attend school?

Unfortunately, all a parent has to do is say it's against their religion, and they can send their little disease vectors to sit next to my kids. It's maddening.

If not, why not?

Religious freedom. Which is fine, but their religious freedom should also exclude them from the public schools, IMHO.

I'm very pleased with the trend of doctors firing patients who won't vaccinate.

[Papewaio]

Yes there is a consipracy a foot here.

It's the chiropractors. They have fought vaccines for generations. They didn't want Polio vaccines as polio victims need physiotherapy for life which is a nice money earner for chiropractors.

[Greyblades]

FYI, I've never gotten a shot in my life. Do you think I am endagering your kids?

Just our sanity vuk.

[Hax]

I stopped watching when she said there was no reason for her child to get sick in the winter because they always make sure she's covered up.

My mother took me out ice skating when I was one and I got meningitis. Nearly killed me, too.

[Major Robert Dump]

My mother took me out ice skating when I was one and I got meningitis. Nearly killed me, too.

Well you obviously weren't covered up.

[Greyblades]

Odd, I seem to have transported into an alternate dimension where "covered up" really means "plastic bubble", is Wayne Brady black in this universe too?

[Vuk]

Unfortunately, all a parent has to do is say it's against their religion, and they can send their little disease vectors to sit next to my kids. It's maddening.


Religious freedom. Which is fine, but their religious freedom should also exclude them from the public schools, IMHO.

I'm very pleased with the trend of doctors firing patients who won't vaccinate.

After all, we all want to live in the USSR.
So you are against people who do behaviors that are likely to get them contagious diseases? How about having sex with multiple partners? That turns people into 'little disease vectors' just as much or more than not vaccinating kids. Any other draconian ideas you wanna throw out? I'm sure we could apply you nutty principle to lots of things!

Vuk you live in the boondocks and do not coohort with proper society, you do not count

An annual flu shot has never prevented me from getting the flu in some shape or fashion. But I also have a higher tolerance for pain and suffering than most people, so when I do get the flu I can still function and work, even without medicine, although on several occasions in my life I havebeen forced to go home by my boss.

As for the really bad stuff, I don't see the big deal. Although I never cared for Gov Perry, I thought he got a raw deal with that HPV shot thing, which shows just how ignorant Americans are about the STDs we all carry and our women dying of preventable cancer

I do think there is a certain level of conspiring going on in the pharma market, but more from the FDA approval and commercial end. I don't really see a conspiracy in the push for people to get vaccinated from deadly childhood diseases.

Right, I only attended a Uni for years and interacted with, or passed by thousands of people, and have spent some time living in a city of 300k. So I guess I just don't interact with people at all.
The only vaccines I would consider getting at all would be tetanus and rabies. (just in case you bite me or I cut myself on Lemurs outdated, draconian thinking)

Yes, you are a threat to my children. No vaccine is 100% effective, but if enough of the population gets vaccinated, the virus/bacteria can't get a proper burn going in the populace. So if an individual comes down with the disease, it fails to spread.

Even though the vaccines do not give 100% immunity, in aggregate they act as if they do if enough of the herd gets vaccinated. See herd immunity for further reading. Sample:

"Vaccines are never 100% effective. Some people are genetically unable to respond to the vaccine, some have immunodeficiencies that preclude receiving vaccines or developing a response to the vaccine, some haven’t gotten around to vaccination or are too young to receive a vaccine. If you vaccinate a large number of people, besides preventing disease in an individual, it helps protect the vulnerable in a population. Vaccines prevent disease propagation."


See answer above. The whooping cough vaccine, for example, is believed to have a 64% effectiveness rate. If enough kids get the vaccine, however, the virus is effectively stopped dead. But only if enough of the population gets vaccinated.

So Vuk, the local chiropractor, and the lady in that YouTube video are all endangering my children through a willful act of premeditated stupidity.

Translation: "Vuk is a danger to children! We need to force him and others like him to not leave their houses and never go near children or healthy normal people!"
You crack me up Lemur. Are you really this crazy, or are you just trolling for responses?
My sister got a flu vaccine because she was required to by her employer. It literally almost killed her. She was out for over a month. She has had the flu a few times, and it never hit her as hard as whatever was in her fecking flu vaccine. Sorry Lemur, but I would rather take my chances. The only time anyone in my family has ever been hit that bad by a sickness is when my bro and I got swine flu, and we were no worse off than she.

Sorry mate, but you can keep your shots (and you know where to put em). You go around accusing people of being dangerous to children pretty freely, jackass.

EDIT: Just sigged you Lemmy, to enshrine your lunacy forever!

[Lemur]

After all, we all want to live in the USSR.

It's like a Stalin Godwin.

So you are against people who do behaviors that are likely to get them contagious diseases?

Nope, not even vaguely what I wrote. I'm pro-vaccination, especially for children. Read some history, amigo, and check out how much fun summers were when children would randomly become paralyzed by the summer illness. Really, if there's one thing medical science can point to as an unqualified success, it's childhood vaccination. The fact that some wingnut loonies and vegan yoga nuts have decided to opt out of the system? (Or more importantly, opted their children out of the system.) Not cool. And your willful ignorance about history and epidemiology really makes me wonder if you were home-schooled. Badly.

Any other draconian ideas you wanna throw out? I'm sure we could apply you nutty principle to lots of things!

Yes, vaccination against preventable disease like polio and meningitis is nutty. Next I'll be claiming the Earth is round and the Sun isn't the center of the universe.

Translation: "Vuk is a danger to children! We need to force him and others like him to not leave their houses and never go near children or healthy normal people!"

You are, by your own admission, completely unimmunized. So yeah, you can please stay the hell away from my kids. All kids, if you're going to be considerate.

You go around accusing people of being dangerous to children pretty freely, jackass.

And I've never met someone so actively hostile to simple things that make life better for everyone. Read some history, learn some basic facts about epidemiology. Or at least make a coherent argument against immunizations, something better than your sister having a bad reaction to a flu shot.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ehrm no. You see one of the very nice properties of nearly all STDs is that, well, they are S-TD as opposed to Cough-TD etc. That makes STDs "mostly harmless" by comparison, doubly so since most of them are, again, not lethal whereas a typical property of child's diseases is that yes, in fact, they can be severe enough to kill (particularly babies and todlers). Furthermore apparently unlike wherever you live, the typical environment in which a child contracts a disease would be that small room which it spends a lot of time in together with many other kids in the same "class"; plus again, children at risk of childs disease (age 5-6, age 9, age 12 are specific "milestones" for vaccines) are not generally sexually active enough to get an STD....

This means that you, Vuk, might not be such a big risk factor for the Lemurlings but the good quacks kids are.

[Major Robert Dump]

@Vuk I was being sarcastic about you being a hillbilly. I know you graduated from Hope University

Making people (kids) get common vaccines is no more or less of an infringement on our "civil liberties" than making people have a drivers license and carry car insurance. It is basically a law put in place to keep one guy from screwing over the many. It's the same reason they pull a kid with lice out of class and put him in with the special ed kids, because no one cares if the retarded kids have lice, in fact, it is to be expected. Okay I made that last part up.

You may not get vaccineated but you may live a more healthy lifestyle than many. People who do not vaccinate due to alternative methods of health is only so acceptable, because next you will have people who do not vaccinate their kids because of the cost, or the headache, or the time it takes to drive downtown. Not the kids fault, not your fault, but fault is inconsequential when it comes to a contagious illness and my kid gets sick because Jimmy's mom could not be bothered to take him to the health department. Look around, we are hamstrung and punished in all sorts of manner for the health and safety of other. Only gonna get worse, amigo.

My mother and her 4 siblings were struck with polio when they were kids, and they were all crippled for years after eradication. My much older sister also had it, one of only 100 cases that year, she was on her little gimp crutches the first 4 years of her life. I kinda take the issue seriously.

[naut]

No they aren't a conspiracy. People who believe they are are either looking stylish in a tinfoil hat or are misinformed. That said, it's a good idea to research what each vaccine contains and be aware of known side-affects. You can be cautious, without being foolish.

You should undermine that crazy chiropractor, bring forth the evidence for a factual smack-down.

[Hax]

Well you obviously weren't covered up.

Yeah, it's all her fault. >:|

[rory_20_uk]

My mother took me out ice skating when I was one and I got meningitis. Nearly killed me, too.

Correlation, not causation.

Flu not dangerous? The Flu Pandemic of 1918 killed more than WW1. An unusual strain, for sure. Do we know if one will return? No.

I can't find the words to properly relay my contempt/disgust/anger at such idiots. That they bred in the first place is polluting the gene pool.