Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

[Hax]

Correlation, not causation.

Perhaps. Still, it developed from an infection of the ears. Funny thing is, when we went to our doctor he basically said there was nothing wrong. Then we went to my godfather, who happens to be a child doctor and he advised us to go to hospital anyway. There they diagnosed I had meningitis.

...go on.

[Furunculus]

we had the controversy over the triple-vaccine in the UK about ten years ago, with lots of concerned parents refusing to see their kids get it because of a heightened risk of autism.

that is their right, but it is deeply irresponsible and i would happily shun any parent stupid enough to do that for exactly the herd-immunity reason you mention.

short answer - don't conflate legal-compulsion with being socially ostracised.

[rory_20_uk]

Perhaps. Still, it developed from an infection of the ears. Funny thing is, when we went to our doctor he basically said there was nothing wrong. Then we went to my godfather, who happens to be a child doctor and he advised us to go to hospital anyway. There they diagnosed I had meningitis.

...go on.

It happens. Generally otitis to mastoiditis first then onto meningitis. Sod all to do with the cold. And given the history it'd be bacterial when it is viruses which do better at lower temperatures.

[aimlesswanderer]

A little girl who was to young to be vaccinated died in NSW of whooping cough in an area of the state with a very low vaccination rate. The most vocal of the Australian organisations denying that vaccines are useful then allegedly claimed that the girl "supposedly died from whooping cough?". See transcript of interview.

[Sir Moody]

we had the controversy over the triple-vaccine in the UK about ten years ago, with lots of concerned parents refusing to see their kids get it because of a heightened risk of autism.

that is their right, but it is deeply irresponsible and i would happily shun any parent stupid enough to do that for exactly the herd-immunity reason you mention.

short answer - don't conflate legal-compulsion with being socially ostracised.

to make things worse it was a manufactured controversy as well (read the link I provided earlier) - there was never any evidence linking the Jab to Autism and the guy who "manufactured" the link was A) being paid to do so by a Medical malpractice lawyer (over £400k by the end) and B) had just patented his own vaccine which was not as cost effective and thus was worthless if the triple jab continued

[Furunculus]

indeed so.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmm Chiropractor nuff said really

Um, no. Chiropractors are not, generally, like that. Mine isn't - in fact neither of my two chiropractors are like that.

I always thought that immunity meant...well, that you're immune. The only way unvaccinated kids would be a threat if it were a virus that mutates quickly enough to make the vaccination obsolete.

That said, parents who don't vaccinate* their kids are A) free riders B) idiots, whose behaviour borders on child abuse

(*for the essentials like polio and whatnot)

Bingo - viruses that spread are viruses that mutate.

[gaelic cowboy]

Um, no. Chiropractors are not, generally, like that. Mine isn't - in fact neither of my two chiropractors are like that.

Yes they are and a huge majority of the medical and scientific community agrees with me.

And even if it was real which it's not what the hell would a back pain guy know about vaccination.

[Lemur]

what the hell would a back pain guy know about vaccination.

That's the real issue. I'm not interested in whether chiropractors know about joints, or whether massage therapists know about muscle tissue. But for someone in a non-related field to make pronouncements about vaccination and epidemiology is fifty shades of no way.

[drone]

Flu not dangerous? The Flu Pandemic of 1918 killed more than WW1. An unusual strain, for sure. Do we know if one will return? No.

To clarify, I never said that the flu was not dangerous. I just said that the non-pandemic influenza vaccine is not worth it. Too many mutations in the strains, and when a true killer like the Spanish flu comes around, odds are the vaccine will not stop it. We are about 2 months away from the next flu scare, with news orgs breathlessly going on about the unstoppable avian-feline H7N2 strain destined to kill 20% of the population.

With diseases like polio and pertussis, by all means get immunized. And if a potent flu strain hits, get the strain specific jab. But until they come up with a better influenza vaccine that targets whole strains based on the fundamentals, it's just whack-a-mole.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes they are and a huge majority of the medical and scientific community agrees with me.

And even if it was real which it's not what the hell would a back pain guy know about vaccination.

See - this is reverse ignorance at work.

A Chiropractor manipulates your skeletal muscles, that's a real thing - I know because one worked on my left shoulder for three months and brought it back to functionality from basically useless, the whole arm that is, when the doctor just said "rest it", which I had been doing for months.

We're talking about a marked visual difference in posture here, not just an absense of pain.

What the NHS says: http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1098.asp...CategoryID=154

Muscle pain and spasms can cause or exagerate all manner of problems, either directly or because they encourage bad posture.

They have nothing to do with vaccinations or infectious diseases, beyond the obvious point that anything that puts you out of sorts will hamper your immune system.

Now, as I said, I know two chiropractors personally - who have children - and neither would suggest you not see a doctor if you felt ill. what they would both say is that GP's don't no as much about muscles and joints as they do - which is manifestly true when you consider that if you tell your GP you have clicking joints they will shrug and say there's nothing to be done.

Talk to a specialist doctor or a chiropractor and they will tell you differently - and then fix it.

[Lemur]

Fun fact heard on the radio today: Wisconsin had 3,000 cases of whooping cough this year. Best thing about whooping cough is that the normal vaccination schedule doesn't fully work on babies until they're six months old. Oh, and it can kill.

So that's half a year you get to wonder if unimmunized hippies and/or rednecks will inadvertently kill your child. Wheeeeeee!

They can take our lives, but they can never take ... our freeeedom ... to be complete morons! [/Braveheart]

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fun fact heard on the radio today: Wisconsin had 3,000 cases of whooping cough this year. Best thing about whooping cough is that the normal vaccination schedule doesn't fully work on babies until they're six months old. Oh, and it can kill.

So that's half a year you get to wonder if unimmunized hippies and/or rednecks will inadvertently kill your child. Wheeeeeee!

They can take our lives, but they can never take ... our freeeedom ... to be complete morons! [/Braveheart]

Do you have to pay for vaccinations in the US, for children?

[Major Robert Dump]

We have to pay for some of them, for the wierd stuff. BUT your typical county health department will give them out either for free or at a greatly reduced rate.

In fact, my county has a drive-thru vaccination clinic, all of it 100% free for kids or seniors

[Major Robert Dump]

@Lemur

I am trolling u on FB

[Lemur]

So the idiot child-endangering chiropractic quack has posted two sources to support his argument that we should all die of preventable diseases. One is a self-published memoir, the other is a vaguely official-looking PDF from a vaccine denialist website.

So much concentrated stupid.

[Xiahou]

To clarify, I never said that the flu was not dangerous. I just said that the non-pandemic influenza vaccine is not worth it. Too many mutations in the strains, and when a true killer like the Spanish flu comes around, odds are the vaccine will not stop it.

Studies suggest that flu vaccines are still effective even when there's a mismatch in the viruses vaccinated vs what spreads...

What if there is a mismatch between circulating viruses and the vaccine viruses?

A “mismatch” is said to occur when the viruses in the vaccine are significantly different from those circulating in the community. In years when the vaccine strains are not well matched to circulating strains, vaccine effectiveness can be reduced. However, even when the viruses in the vaccine and circulating viruses are not well matched, a vaccine may still offer some protection against circulating viruses.

For example, in a study among persons 50-64 years of age during the 2003-04 influenza season, when the vaccine strains were not optimally matched, inactivated influenza vaccine effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed influenza was 60% among persons without high-risk conditions, and 48% among those with high risk conditions. However, vaccine effectiveness was 90% against laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalization (Herrera, et al Vaccine 2006). A study in children during the same year found vaccine effectiveness of about 50% against medically diagnosed influenza and pneumonia without laboratory confirmation (Ritzwoller, Pediatrics 2005). Still, in some years when vaccine and circulating strains were not well-matched, no vaccine effectiveness may be able to be demonstrated (Bridges, JAMA 2000). It is not possible in advance of the influenza season to predict how well the vaccine and circulating strains will be matched, and how that may affect vaccine effectiveness. For more information, see Vaccine Effectiveness - How Well Does the Flu Vaccine Work?

link

Obviously, the closer the match, the more effective the vaccine- but don't make the mistake of thinking that means the flu vaccine is completely useless.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We have to pay for some of them, for the wierd stuff. BUT your typical county health department will give them out either for free or at a greatly reduced rate.In fact, my county has a drive-thru vaccination clinic, all of it 100% free for kids or seniors

Ah, well part of the problem you have then is probably the American aversion to healthcare - that'll get you coming and going. cost averse won't want to pay, and if you roll out a Federal program of free vaccinations (this is ultimately a US-wide issue) people will cry "conspiracy" or "nanny state".Almost makes you wish there was a nanny state conspiracy, doesn't it?

[drone]

Studies suggest that flu vaccines are still effective even when there's a mismatch in the viruses vaccinated vs what spreads...

Obviously, the closer the match, the more effective the vaccine- but don't make the mistake of thinking that means the flu vaccine is completely useless.

Not disputing that either. But pushing the non-pandemic vaccine on the general populace (not just those most vulnerable or in health services) every year for a disease that usually results in just a few days of downtime, doesn't always work, and has a fairly high rate of immediate side effects, seems unwise in the long run. Perception matters, which is kinda the point of this whole thread.

[Sir Moody]

We don't do that here in ole Blighty - here only the at Risk groups get free flu jabs and anyone else has to "request" them and pay a fee - you are generally not encouraged to get a flu jab unless you really need one

[rvg]

From personal experience I have to say that flu vaccines are great. Since I started getting flu shots, I no longer fear the flu season.

[Strike For The South]

I don't get sick because I am a grown man

Also, someone needs to post the billy Madison clip where they call Vuk an idiot

[Lemur]

Okay, based on my experience with this loony vaccine denier, and our recent experience with a Holocaust denier, I have a broader question;

For most of us, more information is good. A variety of views and data help us arrive at a position that is supportable, or at least logical.

Why does this fall apart with conspiracy nuts? Why are they able to ignore all standard models of knowledge, and just thump along with confirmation bias? For most of us, if we're presented with ten scientific peer-reviewed papers that say gravity is real, and one loonbat website that says gravity is a Jewish hoax, we reach the conclusion that gravity is probably real.

But a conspiracy nut disregards the consensus, points to the fringe website or loony scholar or self-published Gravity Is A Lie book, and they believe they've revealed some secret truth.

What is this psychology? What fuels it? What sustains it? Why are conspiracy nuts so impervious to reality-based consensus? It seems almost like a mental disorder.

[drone]

From personal experience I have to say that flu vaccines are great. Since I started getting flu shots, I no longer fear the flu season.

And I haven't gotten the flu since I bought this rock!

I don't fear the flu because I played in dirt as a child, and am still exposed to germs of all kinds on a regular basis instead of trying to live in triclosan-drenched bubble. I follow George Carlin's reasoning on the immune system - Practice, practice, practice. Needless to say, many swear words.

[CBR]

What is this psychology? What fuels it? What sustains it? Why are conspiracy nuts so impervious to reality-based consensus? It seems almost like a mental disorder.

As Stephen Colbert said: Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

A long but interesting article by Chris Mooney The science of why we don't believe science might be what you are looking for.

After watching the YouTube video you linked to ( 6 minutes of stupid I will never get back) I had to watch Health, vaccinations and junk science again, just to regain some of my sanity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Okay, based on my experience with this loony vaccine denier, and our recent experience with a Holocaust denier, I have a broader question;

For most of us, more information is good. A variety of views and data help us arrive at a position that is supportable, or at least logical.

Why does this fall apart with conspiracy nuts? Why are they able to ignore all standard models of knowledge, and just thump along with confirmation bias? For most of us, if we're presented with ten scientific peer-reviewed papers that say gravity is real, and one loonbat website that says gravity is a Jewish hoax, we reach the conclusion that gravity is probably real.

But a conspiracy nut disregards the consensus, points to the fringe website or loony scholar or self-published Gravity Is A Lie book, and they believe they've revealed some secret truth.

What is this psychology? What fuels it? What sustains it? Why are conspiracy nuts so impervious to reality-based consensus? It seems almost like a mental disorder.

Total shot in the dark, but I would in general it has to do with how far removed that person is from the mainstream community.

Turn the question on it's head - you arrive in Nazi Germany and 200 Nazi's tell you Jews are subhuman and need to be wiped out.

So, what do you do?

You start smuggling Jews out of Germany, right?

Because all the Nazi's are either nuts or evil.

[Major Robert Dump]

I keep my immune system in top working order by sharing intimate moments with street walkers.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The sad part is while we mock the morons, children still die from diseases once thought to be cliches of the 1800s.

[Papewaio]

Not taking a complete course of antibiotics gives an opportunity to create mutant strains.

Not completely immunizing a population gives an opportunity to create mutant strains.

In essence the selfish who don't get immunized are a Darwin award for the entire community. They are a very real case of endangering everyone due to gross negligence.

[Vuk]

Not taking a complete course of antibiotics gives an opportunity to create mutant strains.

Not completely immunizing a population gives an opportunity to create mutant strains.

In essence the selfish who don't get immunized are a Darwin award for the entire community. They are a very real case of endangering everyone due to gross negligence.

Oh really? Because I remember reading that bacteria responds to anti-biotics and mutates to more dangerous forms as a result.