Going too far?

**Fragony** · 08-19-2012, 09:56

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-moral-choices

I certainly don't apreciate torture as a gameplay mechanic, especially in a blockbuster title.

It makes this excellent retrospective of the excellent Manhunt all the more relevant http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ective-manhunt

Manhunt may have been rediculously sadistic but it was a pretty clever game, it was made impossible to relate to Earl Cash, you didn't even know why he was sentenced to death. In the end it didn't really advocate violence but condemned those who do, the director putting you in these situations was one memorable villain, an omnipresent evil like Shodan was in System Shock.

What they are doing in this new Splinter Cell is different though. Torture is cool?

**spankythehippo** · 08-19-2012, 10:30

Torture is cool with me in video games. Is murder alright in video games? Many video games have extremely graphic violence, so why is torture any different?

**rajpoot** · 08-19-2012, 10:31

Originally Posted by spankythehippo

Torture is cool with me in video games. Is murder alright in video games? Many video games have extremely graphic violence, so why is torture any different?

Because torture is worse than murder?

**rickinator9** · 08-19-2012, 16:20

I don't have any problem with it, but undoubtedly there's people who do. If they want to implement an mechanic such as this, they should also add an option to skip it.

**Fragony** · 08-19-2012, 16:39

Twisting the knife as a mini-game, nope I am not getting this. This really goes too far for me. I don't mind the sopussed rape in the new Tomb Raider as it serves a purpose. But nono to this

**Monk** · 08-19-2012, 18:04

The splinter cell games have been going more 24-esque with each iteration, i'm not surprised that Sam Fischer is turning into Jack Bauer with each game he shows up in. As if it wasn't getting obvious enough I guess now we have torture scenes to seal the deal. Thing is torture has shown up in games before in various incarnations, but I am struggling to think of one that turned torturing another human it into an actual mini-game. Help me out here.

From a creative standpoint I see what they are trying to do and fully understand. They're trying to paint the picture of a man losing his morals and humanity in the face of stopping a greater threat, but from a gameplay standpoint, I have to ask is it actually fun to torture someone? What am I as the player getting out of this experience? The scene is obviously meant to make the player uncomfortable and make them question what they're doing, but I think you have to be careful with that.

The difference between a well crafted, emotional scene and an over the top display of bad taste is such a thin line. It requires a talented team behind it to make something as dark and nuanced as torture seem justified in a gameplay sense. A good example is Spec Ops: The Line's campaign. There was a lot of moral grey in that game and it was done perfectly. It took the concept of shooting guys and turned it into a REALLY uncomfortable, but necessary evil for the player. There were times I felt bad about shooting guys in SO, when in other games I blew through them mindlessly without a care in the world. That kind of emotional response can create a powerful experience for the player, but it requires a masterful touch from the creative team behind it.

Am I confident that the team behind Splinter Cell can pull that off?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Montmorency** · 08-19-2012, 20:03

but I am struggling to think of one that turned torturing another human it into an actual mini-game. Help me out here.

One of the Punisher adaptations, was it?

**Fragony** · 08-20-2012, 01:54

Originally Posted by Monk

The splinter cell games have been going more 24-esque with each iteration, i'm not surprised that Sam Fischer is turning into Jack Bauer with each game he shows up in. As if it wasn't getting obvious enough I guess now we have torture scenes to seal the deal. Thing is torture has shown up in games before in various incarnations, but I am struggling to think of one that turned torturing another human it into an actual mini-game. Help me out here.

From a creative standpoint I see what they are trying to do and fully understand. They're trying to paint the picture of a man losing his morals and humanity in the face of stopping a greater threat, but from a gameplay standpoint, I have to ask is it actually fun to torture someone? What am I as the player getting out of this experience? The scene is obviously meant to make the player uncomfortable and make them question what they're doing, but I think you have to be careful with that.

The difference between a well crafted, emotional scene and an over the top display of bad taste is such a thin line. It requires a talented team behind it to make something as dark and nuanced as torture seem justified in a gameplay sense. A good example is Spec Ops: The Line's campaign. There was a lot of moral grey in that game and it was done perfectly. It took the concept of shooting guys and turned it into a REALLY uncomfortable, but necessary evil for the player. There were times I felt bad about shooting guys in SO, when in other games I blew through them mindlessly without a care in the world. That kind of emotional response can create a powerful experience for the player, but it requires a masterful touch from the creative team behind it.

Am I confident that the team behind Splinter Cell can pull that off?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Still have to play that Spec-Ops game, it sounds really interresting. Will be picking it up eventually. And I agree, if it's done cleverly I don't mind a game being edgie. Manhunt was clever for example

**Chaotix** · 08-20-2012, 15:12

Originally Posted by Monk

The splinter cell games have been going more 24-esque with each iteration, i'm not surprised that Sam Fischer is turning into Jack Bauer with each game he shows up in. As if it wasn't getting obvious enough I guess now we have torture scenes to seal the deal. Thing is torture has shown up in games before in various incarnations, but I am struggling to think of one that turned torturing another human it into an actual mini-game. Help me out here.

Previous Splinter Cell games, definitely.

Conviction had those interrogation mini games where there were different ways to break someone's face depending on what object you happen to be standing in front of.

**Monk** · 08-20-2012, 19:09

Originally Posted by Fragony

Still have to play that Spec-Ops game, it sounds really interresting. Will be picking it up eventually. And I agree, if it's done cleverly I don't mind a game being edgie.

It's pretty brilliant in a number of ways, not the least of which is how they made it look like a boring military shooter on the surface but completely flipped that idea on it's head once you get more than 15 minutes into the game. Most people who dislike it, i feel, were expecting another game in which you shoot hundreds of people mindlessly without any semblance of story or atmosphere like a Call of Duty game. I don't think it's possible to not feel bad about some of the stuff you do in Spec-Ops. The whole experience is an uncomfortable and depressing one especially when you take into account just who you're fighting.

If I ever could point someone to a game that completely deconstructs its genre it would be that one. A masterpiece of design if I ever experienced one. It's only flaw is its short campaign. A well justified sale buy for sure.

Originally Posted by Chaotix

Conviction had those interrogation mini games where there were different ways to break someone's face depending on what object you happen to be standing in front of.

Yes I remember some of those interrogation scenes. If I recall none of them were as over the top as twisting a knife with the use of a thumbstick, but then when taken in context, this next iteration doesn't seem like that big of a step. I will probably wait for more media around the games to surface to see how the game's design shapes up. I really disliked conviction, so if it's more of that I will probably pass.

Originally Posted by Montmorency

One of the Punisher adaptations, was it?

Do you know the difference between justice and punishment?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Fragony** · 08-20-2012, 21:09

Originally Posted by Monk

It's pretty brilliant in a number of ways, not the least of which is how they made it look like a boring military shooter on the surface but completely flipped that idea on it's head once you get more than 15 minutes into the game. Most people who dislike it, i feel, were expecting another game in which you shoot hundreds of people mindlessly without any semblance of story or atmosphere like a Call of Duty game. I don't think it's possible to not feel bad about some of the stuff you do in Spec-Ops. The whole experience is an uncomfortable and depressing one especially when you take into account just who you're fighting.

If I ever could point someone to a game that completely deconstructs its genre it would be that one. A masterpiece of design if I ever experienced one. It's only flaw is its short campaign. A well justified sale buy for sure.

Ok getting it.

**Hooahguy** · 08-20-2012, 23:48

Originally Posted by Monk

A good example is Spec Ops: The Line's campaign. There was a lot of moral grey in that game and it was done perfectly. It took the concept of shooting guys and turned it into a REALLY uncomfortable, but necessary evil for the player. There were times I felt bad about shooting guys in SO, when in other games I blew through them mindlessly without a care in the world. That kind of emotional response can create a powerful experience for the player, but it requires a masterful touch from the creative team behind it.

Hmm... I wrote off Spec Op The Line after I heard that the campaign isnt that long and the MP is pretty mediocre. If it was $5, or even $10, Id get it, but its asking price of $50, and even its summer sale price of $25, it way too high for me.

**Fragony** · 08-21-2012, 11:56

20 euro, that's ok for a few hours of solid entertainment. I keep hearing that this game makes you quite uncomfortable, I like being disturbed. I know nothing of the story except it's insprired by Heart of Darkness, yay