Geert Wilders comes out of the closet as an anti-semite

[Fragony]

So, the point of this Topic was to wind Frags up?

Because it appears to have worked.

Well yeah guilty, I don't even vote on him I vote for the Libertarian Party and always will. But Wilders's opponents are so much worse then Wilders himself, so much cheaper

[Andres]

I am not shocked.

The European far-right has always hated the jews. It was only a matter of time before the "new far-right" came out as antisemites, just like their older cousins.

It's not about "criticizing Islam". It's about hating everyone who do not look and act exactly as you do. And jews have toped the "people who are not like us"-list for a milennia.

Someone tell the White House to increase military spending. You'll need to rescue us from genocodal maniacs once again soon.

You did read that it all begun with bill that was proposed by an animal rights party and that passed the lower house?

Wilders, among, apparently, other political parties, supported that bill back then? Or he didn't?

Are all those parties who did support it in 2011 now "far right" and antisemites?

Do you consider animal rights activists potential genocidal maniacs?

What is antisemite in expecting everybody to respect certain legislation? No ritual slaught of animals. If you want to be offended and consider it anti-Islam or antisemite, then so be it. It has nothing to do with religion, but with animal rights.

[naut]

No, but I've been involved in the slaughter of animals, so I know they aren't dead until the blood stop flowing.

A point that carries across to our species too:

" Wrist cutting is not usually life threatening and patients who self-mutilate know it."

Joel Paris, MD, (2004), Journal of Personality Disorders, The Guilford Press.

Even a libertarian like me will concede some freedoms if the reasoning is sound.

[Fragony]

You did read that it was a bill proposed by an animal rights party?

Wilders, among, apparently, other political parties, supported that bill.

Are all those parties now "far right" and antisemites?

Do you consider animal rights activists potential genocidal maniacs?

What is antisemite in expecting everybody to respect certain legislation? No ritual slaught of animals. If you want to be offended and consider it anti-Islam or antisemite, then so be it. It has nothing to do with religion, but with animal rights.

Kinda sums it up. If religious jews think they have an ally in Wilders when it comes to religious slaughter or the jewish religion they are mistaken.

[Andres]

Also, the idea that being against ritual slaughter and holding the opinion that animals should be stunned first equals being an antisemite, a Muslim hater and probably also a racist, a far right adept and, why no, a neo-nazi and a genocidal maniac, is completely and utterly ridiculous, to say the least. In fact, it's so ridiculous that it becomes hilarious.

[Sigurd]

Wilders opposes kosher..

Or... maybe he wanted to oppose halal, but didn't realize that kosher is very similar?

[Fragony]

Also, the idea that being against ritual slaughter and holding the opinion that animals should be stunned first equals being an antisemite, a Muslim hater and probably also a racist, a far right adept and, why no, a neo-nazi and a genocidal maniac, is completely and utterly ridiculous, to say the least. In fact, it's so ridiculous that it becomes hilarious.

Ritual slaughter isn't all that bad, but there are no exceptions because you believe in fairytales

[CBR]

You did read that it all begun with bill that was proposed by an animal rights party and that passed the lower house?

Which means the Dutch Party Animals are Nazis anti-semites too!

http://youtu.be/JngI1_8beoA

[Major Robert Dump]

I did not immediately read the article, and spent the first page saying to myself "I thought Gene Wilder was dead and I thought he ws a Canadian"

I don't know if this guy is being an anti semite so much as pretty anti religion in general, which I really dont have a problem with

[Fragony]

I don't know if this guy is being an anti semite so much as pretty anti religion in general, which I really dont have a problem with

He is anti-islam most of all, too much imho as there are many flavours of Islam. If he would be more considerate of that he would have my vote.

[Moros]

Such laws have been passed and are in effect in Belgium and rightly so, if I may add. Is Belgium a fascist anti-Semite country now? If that Haredim bastion of Antwerps can deal with, so will the jews in the Netherlands. I don't get the deal really. If anything we should be shunning the religious extremist reaction, especially as they want to counter the democratic procedure of law making and equality in The Netherlands.

[HoreTore]

You did read that it all begun with bill that was proposed by an animal rights party and that passed the lower house?

Wilders, among, apparently, other political parties, supported that bill back then? Or he didn't?

Are all those parties who did support it in 2011 now "far right" and antisemites?

Do you consider animal rights activists potential genocidal maniacs?

What is antisemite in expecting everybody to respect certain legislation? No ritual slaught of animals. If you want to be offended and consider it anti-Islam or antisemite, then so be it. It has nothing to do with religion, but with animal rights.

See post #12.


When the only "animal rights" legislation you support is banning kosher, then yes, you are an antisemite.

The Belgian jews copes by importing meat, btw. Way to go outsourcing yet another industry!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

See post #12.When the only "animal rights" legislation you support is banning kosher, then yes, you are an antisemite.The Belgian jews copes by importing meat, btw. Way to go outsourcing yet another industry!

This is not a tenable position - Kosher slaughter would be illegal in most of the EU were it not for a special Jewish exemption, wanting to end that exemption is not anti-Semetic.

[HoreTore]

This is not a tenable position - Kosher slaughter would be illegal in most of the EU were it not for a special Jewish exemption, wanting to end that exemption is not anti-Semetic.

The counter argument to this has been written countless times by numerous writers far more eloquent than myself, there's no real reason for me to respond.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The counter argument to this has been written countless times by numerous writers far more eloquent than myself, there's no real reason for me to respond.

Banning infant circumcision is fine too in my book.

I would like a response from you, I think both I and the others in this thread who have argued passionately and in good faith here deserve one. There is no logical reason for Jews or Muslims to be allowed special pleading in cases like this - in fact, in a secular society such is unacceptable.

Why should Europe pander to dietary laws designed for an arid climate and bronze age technology?

[Kralizec]

Wilders opposes kosher, but has no problem with the fur industry.

Wrong. Some time ago a law was passed to outlaw the mink fur industry in the coming years, and the PVV was one of the parties in favour.

Unsedated slaughter has been illegal for some time, but the law allowed exceptions for religious practices. I'm undecided on the issue, but the stance is not anti-semetic just because it happens to conflict with the Torah. If there were any Aztecs around, banning human sacrifices would not be racist either.

Of course people could have anti-semetic motives for doing so, but I seriously doubt that was the case for any of the politicians involved. It was an initiative of the Animal Party. One of the parties in favour at the time was the Labour Party, then lead by Job Cohen (I don't think he's religious, but his name should give you an idea how likely it is he is an anti-semite)

[Moros]

See post #12.


When the only "animal rights" legislation you support is banning kosher, then yes, you are an antisemite.

The Belgian jews copes by importing meat, btw. Way to go outsourcing yet another industry!

Apparantly I was wrong Belgium still allows it, outlawing was a big thing though. But it is forbidden in Sweden, Iceland and guess what? Norway.
Also your argument about importing kosher meat is not valid. The biggest producer and by far the largest exporter of Halal meat, which has the same condition and is a bigger industry than kosher meat, is New Zealand. It is also the main source of Halal meat in Europe. And guess what, again these animals were required by law to be sedated. Buyaka! In other words Norway is preventing their muslim and jewish civilians to break their traditional laws. And when they try by exporting, they are usually still breaking them without knowing it. You guys are evil! You should think about moving to another country.

[Fragony]

Kinda scary a realisation that Horetore actually meant it. Lefties usually furiously scream that he's a puppet of the zionist movement. And now all of a sudden when jews don't get special treatment it's anti-semitism, at least make a choice. At first I thought Horetore apreciated the irony but I have always been terrible at leftist logic, I just don't see it

[Sir Moody]

Frag you really need to stop lumping the entire "left" into one group - the Left side of the political scale is made up of many different groups with varying views much like the Right is, and not everyone who aligns to the Left thinks the same thing

in this case I think Horetore is pushing it a little - I don't see where he made his leap to Anti-Semitism...

Wilders seems to be supporting the Ethical slaughter of animals - something I can wholly support

[Fragony]

Frag you really need to stop lumping the entire "left" into one group - the Left side of the political scale is made up of many different groups with varying views much like the Right is, and not everyone who aligns to the Left thinks the same thing

in this case I think Horetore is pushing it a little - I don't see where he made his leap to Anti-Semitism...

Wilders seems to be supporting the Ethical slaughter of animals - something I can wholly support

I know, I am kinda returning the favour when doing so though, but you are of course right.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Apparantly I was wrong Belgium still allows it, outlawing was a big thing though. But it is forbidden in Sweden, Iceland and guess what? Norway.
Also your argument about importing kosher meat is not valid. The biggest producer and by far the largest exporter of Halal meat, which has the same condition and is a bigger industry than kosher meat, is New Zealand. It is also the main source of Halal meat in Europe. And guess what, again these animals were required by law to be sedated. Buyaka! In other words Norway is preventing their muslim and jewish civilians to break their traditional laws. And when they try by exporting, they are usually still breaking them without knowing it. You guys are evil! You should think about moving to another country.

Well, by HoreTore's logic Norway MUST be ant-Semitic then because they still allow whaling, among other things.

[Kralizec]

I'm pretty sure that HoreTore raised this topic before, and that he thought that the Norse law was probably racist at the start as it was enacted in the late 1920-ies or something like that. Which is not an unreasonable assumption.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm pretty sure that HoreTore raised this topic before, and that he thought that the Norse law was probably racist at the start as it was enacted in the late 1920-ies or something like that. Which is not an unreasonable assumption.

Possibly true - but they haven't repealed it since, despite becoming a bigger Kingdom of Peace and Love than the Frontroom.

[Beskar]

There is a moral obligation to animals not to make them suffer unneeded cruelty, it is easy to understand this is not necessarily an anti-semite issue.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There is a moral obligation to animals not to make them suffer unneeded cruelty, it is easy to understand this is not necessarily an anti-semite issue.

You can't have a moral relationship to a amoral entity 0 human beings have a moral obligation not to cause suffering because of how it reflects on us​.

[Fragony]

I'm pretty sure that HoreTore raised this topic before, and that he thought that the Norse law was probably racist at the start as it was enacted in the late 1920-ies or something like that. Which is not an unreasonable assumption.

I think that is true for the Netherlands as well, about the same time it was banned here I believe, law was reversed after the war. At the time, yeah probably anti-semitism. But it's utterly redicoulous to play that card now, and very very annoying. I don't hear the muslims complaining about having to sedate the animals, most already do so anyway. If it's such a big deal to jews they just move to a country where it is allowed. The import of kosher meat isn't banned so they should just shut up.

[Hax]

Frags makes a good point about the sedation of animals. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to ban kosher and halal slaughter outright. Interestingly, the Netherlands is one of the largest exporters of halal meat.

[Papewaio]

Humans are animals.

A secular democracies laws should apply as evenly as possible to all adult members. Religion should not be a trump card, if the religion can get enough votes to win in the voting then that is the way to do it. Also being a religion does not make its ruleset wiser, smarter or better automatically then the majority.

Religion is not a get out of jail card. Otherwise what stops the NT-Mayan apocolapse mixed with Aztecs from having a chocolate orgy finished with the ritual slaying of a member of the group. After all it's a religion.

[Fragony]

Humans are animals.

A secular democracies laws should apply as evenly as possible to all adult members. Religion should not be a trump card, if the religion can get enough votes to win in the voting then that is the way to do it. Also being a religion does not make its ruleset wiser, smarter or better automatically then the majority.

Religion is not a get out of jail card. Otherwise what stops the NT-Mayan apocolapse mixed with Aztecs from having a chocolate orgy finished with the ritual slaying of a member of the group. After all it's a religion.

Agreed. I am really annoyed at what they insist this to be. It's not an attack on jews or muslims (muslims are not looking for pittytude I might add they are fine with it). It's rediculous to suggest otherwise. Jews get the same treatment as everybody else, must be hard on the chosen people, off with the accusations

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Frags makes a good point about the sedation of animals. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to ban kosher and halal slaughter outright. Interestingly, the Netherlands is one of the largest exporters of halal meat.

I believe both Kosher and Halal Law require the animal to be conscious when it dies.