rvg, some couple of years later?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What's your point? We waterboarded people, this is a fact. That McCain doesn't think its a good idea means nothing, considering Rumsfeld and Co. wrote up the policy and the DoD was most responsible for implementing it.

I was asking if you agreed specifically with mccain's critique. Because it seems to be the "common knowledge" view and it's complete nonsense that shows he has no idea what he's talking about.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I was asking if you agreed specifically with mccain's critique. Because it seems to be the "common knowledge" view and it's complete nonsense that shows he has no idea what he's talking about.

Have you been waterboarded?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Have you been waterboarded?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWm-QU9YRCI

Is this waterboarding?

Unfortunately, there is no 'common knowledge' on torture. There's hardly even 'common knowledge' about police interrogations. Everyone has a different breaking point, different values, and different goals, and that all plays in to how effective a torture technique is going to be. It is, in a sense, the most personal kind of experience you can have with someone.

It is not something as simple and straight-forward as 'We torture you, you talk.' It is a long process that, at gitmo, can take many years of sessions that test their physical, mental, and personal fortitude.

Describe what you think the japanese did and then describe what you think we did. Can you tell me what the two most glaring errors in mccain's statement are? Do you think we "waterboarded" anyone at gitmo?

[Kadagar_AV]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWm-QU9YRCI

Is this waterboarding?

A) Wrong material on the cloth. Most of the water skipped off.
B) It's all fun and games until you can't rip the cloth off.

However... did You even LOOK at the first pictures I posted?

EDIT: I know it is the wrong type of cloth because I had a VERY un-PC captain in the army. He also happened to mention some creative ways to use our communication equipment coupled with the scrotum. And did you know small needles can work wonders under nails? Don't get me started on the teeth, now THAT is what you resort to in desperate situations.

But then, the best sort of torture is strapping someone up, sedate the bodies, make them unable to see their body... And then play various cracking sounds in their ears, as you explain what you are doing to them. Or better yet, leave a LOT for imagination.

However, he gave us the knowledge of how to use it in a pinch. And we were all abundantly clear on it breaking each and every international code of honour. We were also clear on the fact that attempting this WOULD breach our contract with humanity at large.

The USA seem to have had the same lesson... But not the same... Lesson...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWm-QU9YRCI

Is this waterboarding?



Describe what you think the japanese did and then describe what you think we did. Can you tell me what the two most glaring errors in mccain's statement are? Do you think we "waterboarded" anyone at gitmo?

No, this is:



Torture.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What I think doesn't matter. That we waterboarded people is a matter of record, and immediately after posting this I will do my best to bring forth the proof.

But you seem to have no interest in what waterboarding is. The japanese took people, poured water continuously, and then interrogated them--if they answered their mouth would fill up, and if they didn't answer they were beaten. After their stomachs filled with water and were distended they would jump up and down on them to force the water back up. We used a plastic water bottle, no more than 1 liter, held 12-24 inches over the head, blah blah, usually for 10 seconds, and they didn't interrogate people during them. It's a simulation of torture. The "enhanced techniques" were part bluff, part wearing people down, part making them feel like they endured something harsh enough to cooperate without feeling ashamed. So that they don't feel like they are in control. When they accepted that they cooperated.

Why did you accept the equation of japanese "waterboarding" with what we did? Why accept mccain's ignorant statement about "you'll say anything to get the pain to stop"? For that matter why accept that we treated the japanese justly after ww2.

You should know this stuff it's basic.

A) Wrong material on the cloth. Most of the water skipped off.

What's the material of the cloth? They're using a bucket which is excessive to begin with, and you can see in pvc's vid that it only takes a little water. Search for others on youtube that show the cloth more clearly if you want.

B) It's all fun and games until you can't rip the cloth off.

cliche nonsense. If something is torture it isn't fun and games while voluntary.

However... did You even LOOK at the first pictures I posted?

The "US" didn't do abu ghraib, anymore than norway did breivik. Regardless of whether it's the "only us you know".

No, this is:

Some drama queen who is thinks its torture volunteers for it in order to write a vanity fair article? He lasted longer than they usually did it for (ksk used to count to ten on his fingers) too. By the way that was "6 waterboardings" based on their method for counting.

Torture.

Try stating it more firmly.

[Lemur]

I'd re-state and re-link to original documents, such as the mortician reports, but why bother? I've posted it all in the past, and clearly made no impression. Some people are just gonna believe what they want to believe.

On the bright side, other societies that had episodes of torture also took a long time getting around to prosecutions, but they got around to it, eventually, sort of. (Sometimes with a little help from other countries.)

I guess the lesson is that the political conditions that allow torture don't vanish overnight, and the defenders of torture will persevere in the face of overwhelming evidence and public consensus.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I guess the lesson is that the political conditions that allow torture don't vanish overnight, and the defenders of torture will persevere in the face of overwhelming evidence and public consensus.

How's life in the echo-zone?

"How do you feel about the use of torture against suspected terrorists to obtain information about terrorism activities? Can that often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?" Options rotated
		Often	Sometimes	Rarely	Never	Unsure
		%	%	%	%	%
	5/5-9/11	25	35	14	25	2
	1/12-17/10	23	29	19	27	3
	5/28 - 6/1/09	20	32	18	29	1

"Do you think it is sometimes justified to use waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation tactics to get information from a suspected terrorist, or are these tactics never justified?"
		Sometimes justified	Never justified	Depends (vol.)	Unsure
		%	%	%	%
	11/6-10/11	45	40	6	9
	Republicans	70	20	5	5
	Democrats	35	48	6	11
	Independents	37	46	8	9
	4/22-26/09	37	46	7	10

How do like the trend?

We were blanketed with enough propaganda to cause a noticeable distortion, e.g. most people are now willing to define torture as "something really unpleasant" or at least say that it's torture but that torture can be justified. And frankly I'm not too optimistic about it wearing off. There's evidently something too satisfying to people about perpetuating the idea.

[Fragony]

How's life in the echo-zone?

"How do you feel about the use of torture against suspected terrorists to obtain information about terrorism activities? Can that often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?" Options rotated
		Often	Sometimes	Rarely	Never	Unsure
		%	%	%	%	%
	5/5-9/11	25	35	14	25	2
	1/12-17/10	23	29	19	27	3
	5/28 - 6/1/09	20	32	18	29	1

"Do you think it is sometimes justified to use waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation tactics to get information from a suspected terrorist, or are these tactics never justified?"
		Sometimes justified	Never justified	Depends (vol.)	Unsure
		%	%	%	%
	11/6-10/11	45	40	6	9
	Republicans	70	20	5	5
	Democrats	35	48	6	11
	Independents	37	46	8	9
	4/22-26/09	37	46	7	10

How do like the trend?

We were blanketed with enough propaganda to cause a noticeable distortion, e.g. most people are now willing to define torture as "something really unpleasant" or at least say that it's torture but that torture can be justified. And frankly I'm not too optimistic about it wearing off. There's evidently something too satisfying to people about perpetuating the idea.

Must admit that I feel it is sometimes justified.

[Kralizec]

It's a simulation of torture.

...

Those inmates at Guantanamo must be feeling really stupid, letting themselves get fooled into that were tortured. "This sentation of drowning is mildly unpleasant. I guess that means I'm being tortured...well, I guess that means I'll have to talk."

[Papewaio]

The "US" didn't do abu ghraib, anymore than norway did breivik.

9/11 was done by Saudi Arabian individuals in the majority.

How is it by your own standards that it is fine to then invade two nations. One of which was a supporter of AQ the other an opponent of AQ?

If these nations have to take responsibility for AQ then the US has to take responsibility for their prisons and POWs.

If the USA resets/renames the definitions then it is equally fine for other nations to do the same.

[Strike For The South]

Saski has either a nasty strain of realism and or nhilism in him. The whole subjective truth thing has shown up in a few threads.

Whatever, a debate with saski will require soberity and reflection.

Can I concede now? ;)