rvg, some couple of years later?

[rvg]

Quite the fan of punishment, aren't you?

A fan of justice, and in this case punishment as an extension of justice.

[Kadagar_AV]

A fan of justice, and in this case punishment as an extension of justice.

But don't you just LOVE IT when justice is punishing?

Nevermind results, PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH

[Papewaio]

Sure it will. If we could repeal The Prohibition, we can repeal anything.

Except this isn't a domestic law. It was international action. So you can't easily repeal it anymore unless you can revert the damage. As we can't raise the dead I cannot see how other State Actors can be made to not play the same game.

It is now a legitimate act of statehood to assassinate be it drone or radiation. There is no court requirement or innocent until proven guilty.

China and Russia can legitimately poison a dissdent or bomb a house. No need for a court of law to get involved as long as Putin signs off on it that is fine.

New game, new rules. Genie is out of the bottle.

If you really want a do over that would be nigh on impossible. It would require stopping the assassinations internally, a show of contrition, a very real need to prosecute those in the wrong and after all that international treaties with other nations to put this behind us all.

Until that point any regieme can use this new rule set.

[Kadagar_AV]

Except this isn't a domestic law. It was international action. So you can't easily repeal it anymore unless you can revert the damage. As we can't raise the dead I cannot see how other State Actors can be made to not play the same game.

It is now a legitimate act of statehood to assassinate be it drone or radiation. There is no court requirement or innocent until proven guilty.

China and Russia can legitimately poison a dissdent or bomb a house. No need for a court of law to get involved as long as Putin signs off on it that is fine.

New game, new rules. Genie is out of the bottle.

If you really want a do over that would be nigh on impossible. It would require stopping the assassinations internally, a show of contrition, a very real need to prosecute those in the wrong and after all that international treaties with other nations to put this behind us all.

Until that point any regieme can use this new rule set.

This.

But I don't think RVG gets it.

[rvg]

Except this isn't a domestic law. It was international action. So you can't easily repeal it anymore unless you can revert the damage. As we can't raise the dead I cannot see how other State Actors can be made to not play the same game.

Why would we want to revert that?

It is now a legitimate act of statehood to assassinate be it drone or radiation. There is no court requirement or innocent until proven guilty.

And I applaud it. We're not gonna drag every single enemy of the United States to court. They do not deserve that luxury.

China and Russia can legitimately poison a dissdent or bomb a house. No need for a court of law to get involved as long as Putin signs off on it that is fine.

We do not do that.

New game, new rules. Genie is out of the bottle.

About time.

If you really want a do over that would be nigh on impossible. It would require stopping the assassinations internally, a show of contrition, a very real need to prosecute those in the wrong and after all that international treaties with other nations to put this behind us all. Until that point any regieme can use this new rule set.

I have no desire to see this end. In fact, the more of these people we kill, the better. International law gives me zero pause. Zero. I do not care. It is the duty of our government to strike at its enemies wherever and whenever feasible in order to protect our people and our interests. I wish I could convey just how little I care about what the world thinks of this. I wish.

As for the USA turning into a police state and using these methods internally, it is my firm belief that Democracy is a self-correcting system. If the system goes too far, the people will change it. The power is vested with us.

[rvg]

RVG, you're not getting it. Its not just about us.

It is first about us, then everyone else. We're not a charity, our interests come first.

No longer can we point at countries like China and Russia when they do things that are obviously authoritarian. We don't have a leg to stand on.

Sure we can. We do not oppress our own people.

As far as the rest of the world is considered, we're just another big angry empire.

Let them think whatever they like.

And you're whole democracy being self-correcting thing... Care to explain a little more? The only way to self-correct for this is armed insurrection, and Americans just aren't ready for the realities of what that would mean.

Laws get passed, amended and repealed every day. If the people decide that the laws are oppressive, they will change them. If the courts decide that the executive branch is abusing power, we will punish it.

Thankfully, like Rome before us, its good to be on the winning side. But don't kid yourself into thinking this is all about freedom and shit.

If destroying evil is wrong, then I quite frankly do not wanna be right.

[Kadagar_AV]

wow...

[Kadagar_AV]

I think that what RVG fails to see, is that he takes civilization back quite some.

Some of the steps that I am most proud of that humanity has taken, he defends trampling on for some ill-conceived furthering of his nation.

I don't get how he thinks, I'm not sure I even WANT to understand how he thinks.

[rvg]

I don't get how he thinks, I'm not sure I even WANT to understand how he thinks.

To each their own.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The latter, assuming this is him surrendering peacefully or self-exile away from it all and preaching that he was wrong and peace is the answer.

But don't you just LOVE IT when justice is punishing?

Nevermind results, PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH

These guys get it, because they read the news.

Sure it will. If we could repeal The Prohibition, we can repeal anything.

He killed 3000 innocent people.

Dead.

You two don't - look up "Martin McGuinness" and "Gerry Adams", then look up "Northern Ireland Peace Process"

[rvg]

You two don't - look up "Martin McGuinness" and "Gerry Adams", then look up "Northern Ireland Peace Process"

This ain't Northern Ireland.

[Greyblades]

You two don't - look up "Martin McGuinness" and "Gerry Adams", then look up "Northern Ireland Peace Process"

Get what? I would rather see him dead rather than pretending to sing americas tune. What's there to get?

[rvg]

Get what? I would rather see him dead rather than pretending to sing americas tune. What's there to get?

Or even more interestingly... Where would Gerry Adams be today, had he commandeered a group of IRA guys to hijack a jet and ram it into the Houses or Parliament.

[gaelic cowboy]

This ain't Northern Ireland.

Then you will never solve half the problems you trying to end with drone's and whatever else yer building in groom lake

Or even more interestingly... Where would Gerry Adams be today, had he commandeered a group of IRA guys to hijack a jet and ram it into the Houses or Parliament.

Then ye have never heard of these then

Brighton hotel bombing

Downing Street mortar attack

only pure luck meant the governments of the day were not decapitated.

Basically your answer is Gerry and the lads would still be running things in the North and the UK and Irish government would still have signed the Good Friday Agreement.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This ain't Northern Ireland.

The Middle East is hardly different.

Get what? I would rather see him dead rather than pretending to sing americas tune. What's there to get?

Think strategically, and who said anything about it being fake anyway?

[gaelic cowboy]

Think strategically, and who said anything about it being fake anyway?

Exactly

If Paisley and McGuinness can sit across from each other and hammer out a deal then pretty much ANYONE can.

[rvg]

Then ye have never heard of these then

Yup, that's totally the same scale as 9/11. And successful too!.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yup, that's totally the same scale as 9/11. And successful too!.

9/11 only worked because it was novel, it hasn't worked since - and they got the idea from American Tom Clancy anyway.

I have a name for you: Mountbatton

If HM Queen can shake McGuinness' hand, let alone be in the same room as him, then the American government can get behind peace in the Middle East.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yup, that's totally the same scale as 9/11. And successful too!.

Hmm so an an act of terrorism needs to be successful in order to evoke terror, despite all the fight them on the beech's rhetoric at the end they did a deal.




They british in short had to sit down hold and sign on the dotted line, later everyone wonders what all the fuss was about.

The British have been trying to stop attacks on there homeland since the 19th century and they have failed until they talked

[rvg]

9/11 only worked because it was novel, it hasn't worked since - and they got the idea from American Tom Clancy anyway.

What's your point?

I have a name for you: Mountbatton

It's actually Battenberg.

If HM Queen can shake McGuinness' hand, let alone be in the same room as him, then the American government can get behind peace in the Middle East.

Get behind peace? Sure. We're already doing that. Letting Osama breathe my air? Hell no.

[gaelic cowboy]

What's your point?

Actually it's you that has no point RVG the terrorists only need to be lucky once but you need to be lucky all the time. Sure if you can manage it try and bring them to justice but what then?

It's actually Battenberg.

No he is right, they just changed it cos a Germanic sounding name might not be popular.

Get behind peace? Sure. We're already doing that. Letting Osama breathe my air? Hell no.

Sometimes you have to, people are seriously talking about bringing the Taliban into government.

[rvg]

Actually it's you has no point you cos you can never win.

Oh, I sure do. My point is that Osama is dead and I like that.

No he is right they just changed it cos a Germanic sounding name might not be popular

It was Mountbatten though. Not -batton. If you want to impress me with a dynastic last name, at least care to spell it right (well, not you, him).

Sometimes you have to, people are seriously talking about wooing into government.

And sometimes you don't. I like the "wooing" produced by the hellfire missile. It's more flashy, delivers a stronger message.

[Greyblades]

Think strategically, and who said anything about it being fake anyway?

Point taken on the strategic part but I was thinking about it personally; considering what I know: that he did it and was for years unrepentant, all signs point to fake, if he was genuine the only person who could be made to believe it would be himself.
If I saw him wearing the american flag with a peace sign I might be glad he was destabalizing his side but I would not ever be able to believe it to be genuine, so I'd still want him dead.

[gaelic cowboy]

Oh, I sure do. My point is that Osama is dead and I like that.

I talking broader than that RVG and your are well aware of that.

It was Montbatten though. Not -batton. If you want to impress me with a dynastic last name, at least care to spell it right (well, not you, him).

Actually your the one bringing up the minutiae on last names trying to win the internet, basically he was blew sky high and the Queen still had to shake McGuinness

And sometimes you don't. I like the "wooing" produced by the hellfire missile. It's more flashy, delivers a stronger message.

The message you talking about is for a domestic audience, it does little to prevent terrorism.

By the way your engaging in a zero sum game which is the surest path to disaster in foreign policy, remember your only supposed to have permanent interests thats how you know when you can talk.

[Kadagar_AV]

The main question is what kind of world you all want to live in.

A "might is right" world, or a world accepting some common principles.


I for one prefer to live in a world where you need a trial to be sentenced, and where you wont get tortured.

RVG seem to defend a "might is right" world, where you don't need a trial for anything up to and including murdering someone, and where torture is ok.


For me, I find anyone opposing these basic principles to be the scum of humanity. But that's just me.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmm so an an act of terrorism needs to be successful in order to evoke terror, despite all the fight them on the beech's rhetoric at the end they did a deal.




They british in short had to sit down hold and sign on the dotted line, later everyone wonders what all the fuss was about.

The British have been trying to stop attacks on there homeland since the 19th century and they have failed until they talked

You can't kill an idea by killing people, that's the problem.

[rvg]

I talking broader than that RVG and your are well aware of that.

And I'm not. The whole point of discussion in this entire thread is about whether or not it's okay to torture and kill really-really bad guys. That's it. And yes, it's A'OK with me. If it's not okay with you, that's just fine. You can be you and I will remain me. You're offering me your moral compass, which is something I did not ask for and do not need. I have my own.

The message you talking about is for a domestic audience, it does little to prevent terrorism.
By the way your engaging in a zero sum game which is the surest path to disaster in foreign policy, remember your only supposed to have permanent interests thats how you know when you can talk.

I'm not out to change the world. Dealing with the problem one dead terrorist at a time is okay with me.

You can't kill an idea by killing people, that's the problem.

You can. You just need the will to kill sufficient numbers.

[gaelic cowboy]

And I'm not. The whole point of discussion in this entire thread is about whether or not it's okay to torture and kill really-really bad guys. That's it. And yes, it's A'OK with me. If it's not okay with you, that's just fine. You can be you and I will remain me. You're offering me your moral compass, which is something I did not ask for and do not need. I have my own.

Me I much prefer to solve a problem longterm, IF we can solve it by discussion then I am game for that, if we cannot well then that will just have to be fine too.

I'm not out to change the world. Dealing with the problem one dead terrorist at a time is okay with me.

It might be fine with you allright but your government has more than your feelings to worry about.

BTW I didnt offer any moral judgement that's your own doing, interestingly your feelings mirror your enemies.

You can. You just need the will to kill sufficient numbers.

The altar of liberty totters when it is cemented only with blood

[rvg]

Me I much prefer to solve a problem longterm, IF we can solve it by discussion then I am game for that, if we cannot well then that will just have to be fine too.

Bingo.

It might be fine with you allright but your government has more than your feelings to worry about.

So far my feelings are aligning with the actions of my government just fine.

[gaelic cowboy]

So far my feelings are aligning with the actions of my government just fine.

how is that working out for ye?? not too good I hear.