New Forum Structure Proposals

[Axalon]

Your post it’s… Well, there is no way I am going to let such a post go unquestioned… So here goes…

The old sections took up far too much room and were pretty pointless. The whole making a single discussion area with sub-forums was my idea originally and it works very well.

Really?

Reality check 1A: this is a TW-site, as such it is about TW and is supposed to cover TW, and properly, if want to have any chance whatsoever of competing with other existing TW-sites. TW is a niche phenomenon, as such the possible “customer-base” for it is limited – thus this site can not afford to not compete somehow in order to survive long-term. Thus it has too compete regardless if you like it or not, and that regardless what you personally deem as pointless and what not. Besides, this place is called “Totalwar.org” I would think that it is rather self-explanatory what the intended and actual concept for this site is supposed to be and have been for over 10 years – TW, whatever the game. In order for that to happen it has too cover TW-games. In order for it to survive, it has to do so seriously or it will be beaten by the competition. Thus TW has to be allowed to take some serious space on the index, that regardless the game or the competition will simply kill this site in whatever TW-game it fails to cover properly and seriously. That is the reality I see.

Now, you can have whatever personal opinion you like on TW – I have zero problems with that. What I do wonder about is what you are doing on a TW-site in the first place if you think the coverage of TW is “pretty pointless”. I mean it’s just ridiculous and bizarre. How can you possibly miss that this site is called “Totalwar.org”? Did not that give it away what this site is about?! …Something along the lines that this is a TW-site, specializing in covering TW? It’s like saying that I don’t care much for the coverage of cats because I personally find that pretty pointless – and that at site that clearly specializes in cats and have done so over 10 years… And, to top it all off, the site is actually called “Cats.Org”. It’s just ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous still is that you are actually doing all this in a seemingly official capacity (and no attempts what so ever has been made from other staff-members as to indicate anything else) – that’s just priceless…

That said, I would love to see the actual grounds for your assessment there, the reasons why people in general should ever take that statement seriously anywhere. Until you do, I have little choice but to go “dismissed as unserious”. - As standard tradition dictates.

To put it this way, the last time NTW got a post for example was back in Jun. Under the old format, this took up a ton of screen real estate and it made the area look like a barren ghost-town with no clear directions for new users (and arguably, existing users).

I’ll put it in other way for you… Using NTW as a reference to judge all other TW-games (save STW2, as usual) as you do right there as to make some point towards that end is just unfair, screwed up and questionable. NTW is hardly representative for any other TW-game on this site, nor has it been treated in the same way as any other TW-game prior to this change. It had no dedicated section at all – it was the only TW-game prior to this change that had to endure such a treatment on this site. Symptomatically, the people that actually were interested in NTW, naturally searched out other TW-sites instead of bothering with this one - as could be expected – since this forum could hardly compete at all in regards to NTW. Why? The coverage of NTW was so ridiculously inferior to the competition - and that was obviously reflected somehow in the activity it actually have had here.

Once NTW was recognized as a full TW-game around here (despite controversy), it was turned to a sub-section – as that would somehow make things any better for it. The damage was already there at that point and it has never had a sporting chance of recovering somehow from that as seemingly nothing has been done to remedy things on that note by responsible staff. So, the treatment of NTW was unserious from day1 – structurally speaking – and NTW has obviously never recovered from that. In short, NTW-people don’t seem to have much confidence in this site – and have acted accordingly. Had that not been the case, then the traffic levels would obviously be higher somehow.

Even ETW and STW1 that usually show low levels of traffic here as far as I can tell – exceeds NTW at virtually all times. Thus, using NTW as a universal argument for all TW-games is hardly fair nor does it convince if examined properly and soberly. I somehow doubt you turned to NTW by mere chance but rather to serve an agenda, that regardless of any actual grounds - evidently. As a further perspective on your statement I could also point out that both RTW, MTW2 and even MTW1 regularly exceeds the number of visitors STW2 receives (spiderbots or not), as far as I can tell. This despite the fact that staff has in various ways has favoured that game at the expense of others ever since Tosa died (current index design is yet another example of the fact, now taken further then ever before). In short, that jive won’t fly… And, I have just explained why….

Under the new format, the activity is far more condensed which allows refreshment of content more easily and giving people what they want access to.

Let’s use the analogy of an auditorium to set that statement into perspective, shall we? If we have six separate auditoriums, discussing six different fields at their own pace we will get a circumstance that does generate more clarity, less confusion thus better discussions (and thus information) on whatever X then we would get if we took all those six auditoriums and their respective crowds and put them all into one single auditorium and then let them carry on as if nothing had happened. Yes that auditorium sure will be more crowded no doubt but the possible levels of clarity and attention, will decrease, while levels of confusion and obscurity, will increase. Now, how is that a good thing generally speaking? For whom exactly? Same thing applies to this site….

Refreshment-rates does not seem to have a much value of its own, what people have to say in their posts is usually more interesting in contrast, or so I would like to believe. I like responses/replies to my posts as much as the next guy but cramming all activity together will not improve or actually serve this forum much (especially if done to extremes), now will it? This considering the auditorium-analogy and all that, right? As for activity levels, that is one thing, access to whatever information/content is quite another – the two are hardly explicitly linked somehow at all times, now are they? Why should we strive for that? I’m lost…

The idea with the design was to make the layout far more succinct.

Well, you/I/we can only dumb things down to a degree before the drawbacks exceeds the benefits gained by trying to do it (simple deductive logic). In order to cover TW properly, it can not be magically compressed somehow and still not lose detail, depth, (individual) visibility and general coverage (also deductive logic, or we could just start counting channels, previous and current - to kill all doubts about it). I pointed out that very fact months ago – and still it is just ignored by the likes of you and the staff in general. TW has too be allowed to take some space on index, obviously more space then this new change has allowed it.

You regard TW-coverage as pretty pointless and so I would think it be rather self-explanatory that you are hardly suitable or ideal for determining such matters or how that coverage should be devised anywhere. All the same, you still have views on this very stuff nonetheless and clearly you have been forwarding ideas on that very matter anyhow. I find that circumstance questionable and hard to accept on general principle. Reading your overall argumentation on it makes me even more doubtful to it still. I mean have you ever played any TW at all? If the answer is no, then I rest my case, full stop. If the answer is yes, then explain how it can be pointless to you in the first place? It does not add up, now does it? Regardless, it is obvious to me that you hardly act with the best interests in mind for TW - maybe something else - but TW, hardly. Thus I certainly do question if you are suited to act in any such capacity anywhere (on general principle) - as you evidently already have...

Anyhow, the fact is that most people that visit this site are still primarily interested in TW – I mean, the site-name alone certainly acts like a filter here – “TotalWar.Org”. If we are interested in cats or cars or whatever - “TotalWar.Org” is hardly the first place that comes to mind or we go to, now is it? However, if it is TW somehow, then “TotalWar.Org” could be a possible candidate for just that (certainly was in the past) – assuming it is allowed to function as that. “Succinct” does not lend itself as a concept to that end, all things considered, now does it? The TW-folks have probably little actual use for succinct/dumbing things down in general - but they do have a use for an improved index however, especially now – in whatever way that is truly achieved.

The old format was sprawling and unwieldy.

TW-wise, that statement can certainly be questioned all over. The previous 1 section, 1 game, and a few sub-sections as to provide further detail and depth etc. etc. was hardly sprawling or unwieldy in any traditional sense of these terms. The only way that the old format could possibly be “unwieldy” is we are actively trying to overview ALL TW-games at the same time - which is hardly a standard or common practice anywhere as far as I can tell, nor does it does it provide natural practical uses to do that. In my experience (I have been lurking on and off since 2000) TW-people seek out their section(s) of interests and usually don’t give a rats ass about the rest (either they collapse sections or just ignores them or some such. Much like most folk read a newspaper). I have yet to see anybody posting on the boards along the lines – “oh man it is so hard to see all TW-sections at the same time, which is important to me as I play them all at the same time, all the time!” or some such. I basically find that circumstance to be artificial at best on general terms.

My question is thus; what is the actual grounds and practical use - thus relevancy - is there to even consider such a concept (seeing ALL TW-games at the same time) – as that is the only way to make the previous index-structure unwieldy (because TW-wise it was anything but sprawling, section-wise it was not sprawling, neither was the sub-sections in those sections. The previous index had a clarity, order and superiority on TW-coverage that was well beyond the current index. Ironically, the new index can be argued as sprawling as it have several games in one section etc. etc.). The TW-gamers I have seen on multiple boards hardly uses the concept of “seeing all TW-sections at the same time”. So, who does? To whom is this concept of cramming everything together actually relevant? If it is not relevant, then why even consider it here? Irrelevant is irrelevant. Basically, I fail to see any actual credible grounds for that statement, thus I don’t buy it. Unless you provide some actual and valid grounds for that claim, I’m inclined to go “dismissed as unserious” on it.

Obviously many people have different ideas of what this means and there were several different ideas, plans and formats and the resulting design brought about the most compromise.

Really? …Dismantling 6 full TW-sections into 6 sub-sections (even if we temporarily disregard what happened to all hosted mods) - a “compromise”? …On a TW-site? Well if that is true, it certainly puts the expression “a camel is a horse designed by a committee” - to royal shame. Then that’s just sheer kindergarten by comparison to what has happened here.

The separate mod section was to bring the mods to the forefront of the index instead of being hidden away within subsection of subsection within subsection.

First of all, you are in effect talking about the “hosted mods”, not plain mods. There is a difference in several regards in this context and you fail to make that distinction (plain mods were hidden away in a similar fashion as outlined, and still are btw, so no benefits gained for those either so far). Secondly, as it is the hosted mods you are actually talking about here – and as I happen to be one of the few still around that actually is on the receiving end of this particular stuff - I would imagine that I do have a better grasp on how things really were and how things now are on this note - unlike you.

That said, I can only say that the result has created the very opposite circumstances it was intended to achieve (as outlined above, by you). My mod/work (for instance) has never been as invisible and hidden away as it is today - due to this change (both on the index, and in general). In short, if the goal “was to bring the mods to the forefront of the index”, then the result have clearly failed that plan. Anyway, as I pointed out several times now...

Previously hosted mods….

• Were directly connected to the relevant game and community on index by section.
• Had 1 available dedicated channel for direct display on the index, making it possible to track; related activity, latest post, author, topic and timestamp – thus creating some small additional exposure for mod X on the index (generally valuable and desirable, from a modder-perspective).
• Were clearly distinguished by engine and section clearly apart from all other “hosted mods” based on other and different engines/games.

Currently hosted mods…..

• Have no dedicated channels to index – at all. Any tracking of related activity, latest post, author, topic and timestamp or any small additional exposure and visibility for mod X are all gone. Vanished. All of it has been replaced by a small blob. Thus no such info whatsoever displayed on index.
• Severed from the engines/games they depend on as that is placed in another section altogether (placed in sub-sections).
• Severed from the relevant communities they rely on and serve as they (the community) are now directed to various sub-sections in different section. The distance to the relevant people that might be interested in the hosted mods for whatever XTW has never ever been as far as it is today.
• No visible or obvious gateways whatsoever (save one that is hidden away in a sub-sub-section, it was pure luck that I found it at all) as to somehow reconnect the hosted mods to the communities they actually benefit and serve. The overall visibility of each individual hosted mod on the index has never ever been as poor as it is today – no exceptions. Ironically, the “non-hosted” plain mods on this site have now in effect more individual exposure and visibility possible then any “hosted mod” on this site can ever hope to achieve with the current system in terms of posts and activity etc. etc.
• Are all bunched up in 1 section that makes no distinctions on engine-dependencies and differences which is just nonsensical and impractical. Ask any serious and established TW-modder anywhere and they will tell you the same – I doubt there will be any deviation from that conclusion.
• All sorted by the concept of “all hosted mods area”-section. The CA-boards do this and I have yet to see the actual advantages of that and I had my stuff there for 4 years and counting. The CA-boards is a commercial site which primary purpose is to cater to their own products (the original games) first and that’s why they keep all mods distanced away from all that and bunched up in one section to symbolically cover it (as it is secondary to their objective). Why have this been done here? For what actual benefits for the mods, modders and gamers? Again, overview of “all hosted mods” with little or no distinctions does not have any practical or obvious uses by itself, now does it?

People needed a guide dog just to be able to find something simple like EB stored away upon the first visit, which is why many people found it mostly through google search.

How can you possibly know that? The rational answer is that you have no way in hell of knowing that, you have no actual means of knowing that universally – the alternative is that you are sitting on some magic statistics that is not available for anybody else anywhere. Is that it? Let’s see it then, in all it’s glory, shall we? Then I might consider to take that statement seriously.

The new section was meant to be there to try to provide far more support for the modding community as well in the form of a dedicated section and meeting place for all those involved and interested. Though taking a look at it now, it is different than what I thought it was.. so I would say there is room for improvement there in my opinion.

Well, I would be happy to see any such support happen as much as any other modder would but considering all my criticisms regarding mods in particular and TW in general I fail to see any such declared support has actually happened. Again, it is one thing to declare something, it quite another to make it happen in reality and turn out as intended. People certainly had a “dedicated section and meeting place for all those involved and interested” within the previous relevant sections were it belonged, this for the “hosted mods”. Now people have not, now they have a severed section based on the artificial concept of all “hosted mods area” (regardless of any engine etc.).

The CA-boards do this as well and it has little obvious practical use on its own, being severed from games and communities they benefit and rely upon. The CA-boards has a commercial objective to keep the distance between the games, the communities and mods for it – as it is there a matter of catering to their products first (the original games), not the community and what it creates (which is at best secondary there). All of this is reflected in their designs. Since when does this site have a commercial objective like the CA-boards? Again, what actual benefits will supposedly be achieved for this site by adopting such doctrines? The only product this site can offer is information compiled, sorted and highlighted and whatever else its community creates such as mods etc. etc. That is quite another circumstance altogether.

The reality I see is that this change did not serve or benefit me as a modder (for given reasons above etc.), nor did it benefit me as a plain member (also for given reasons above etc.). Now, if it does not serve me as either a modder in general or as a member in general – I have hard time seeing how it would still benefit this site much in general. I also have a hard time seeing how this circumstance would somehow be unique or valid for just me specifically. So, yes there sure seems to be room for various improvements all over (more then ever). I can certainly agree with you on that much at least.

- A