Evolution and the soul...

[Fragony]

You are going to have to elaborate and bring sources. When you start getting under a million years ago, the evolutionary chain for hominids has them already developing social skills and primitive cultures. By primitive cultures, don't delude yourself to think they had a concept of a society. Most likely they had the very basic notions of kinship for immediate family, which would lend itself to ceremonial burials since groupings of hominids during that period still consisted of very small groups of 15-40 people. Mostly 1-3 large families.

Neanderthalers buried their dead like a foethus, along with various tools that come in handy. It isn't that far a stretch that they believed in an afterlife of some sorts.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Neanderthalers buried their dead like a foethus, along with various tools that come in handy. It isn't that far a stretch that they believed in an afterlife of some sorts.

I am not an anthropologist, so if someone can post some links I would be grateful. But I try not to get into the habit of attributing reasons to people without solid evidence to support it. Burying someone with the tools they probably used to provide can symbolize something other than an attempt to prepare someone for an afterlife.

Last time I came into a discussion saying "they probably thought this" or "this is what probably their motivation was" I was ridiculed by many people (wasn't on this forum).

Obviously someone is going to show evidence and I am going to look like a fool, which means it's a lose-lose situation for me either way.

[Fragony]

I am not an anthropologist, so if someone can post some links I would be grateful. But I try not to get into the habit of attributing reasons to people without solid evidence to support it. Burying someone with the tools they probably used to provide can symbolize something other than an attempt to prepare someone for an afterlife.

Last time I came into a discussion saying "they probably thought this" or "this is what probably their motivation was" I was ridiculed by many people (wasn't on this forum).

Obviously someone is going to show evidence and I am going to look like a fool, which means it's a lose-lose situation for me either way.

You cannot of course, but it at least indicates they were concious of their existance. There is obviously nobody to ask as they are kinda extinct at the moment, please hold

Edit, here are some pics http://www.google.com/search?q=neand...w=1024&bih=644

[a completely inoffensive name]

You cannot of course, but it at least indicates they were concious of their existance. There is obviously nobody to ask as they are kinda extinct at the moment, please hold

They definitely had a sense of the self it would seem. But the concept of a God or gods is an abstract answer to a deep question. Exactly where our ancestors were able to reach that point is impossible unless you had a time machine and a lot off patience. Thus back to my original point that Kadagars argument is silly because it demands that the opposition somehow come up with a convincing argument for a specific date.

[Fragony]

They definitely had a sense of the self it would seem. But the concept of a God or gods is an abstract answer to a deep question. Exactly where our ancestors were able to reach that point is impossible unless you had a time machine and a lot off patience. Thus back to my original point that Kadagars argument is silly because it demands that the opposition somehow come up with a convincing argument for a specific date.

Oh I am with you there. It's a bit silly to ask religious people to explain themselves, people should just leave them be, why do they insist on proving they are wrong anyway. What good does it do, nothing at all.

[Sir Moody]

Oh I am with you there. It's a bit silly to ask religious people to explain themselves, people should just leave them be, why do they insist on proving they are wrong anyway. What good does it do, nothing at all.

Off topic I know but you will find most Athiests would be happy to leave Religion to the Religious, if only the Religious would butt out of Science and Politics and stick to the Spiritual...

Since that doesn't seem likely to happen any-time soon you are going to find Atheists and Secularists stepping in from time to time to undermine any "faith" based pseudo science or Political gambit...

[Fragony]

Off topic I know but you will find most Athiests would be happy to leave Religion to the Religious, if only the Religious would butt out of Science and Politics and stick to the Spiritual...

Since that doesn't seem likely to happen any-time soon you are going to find Atheists and Secularists stepping in from time to time to undermine any "faith" based pseudo science or Political gambit...

Yeah but I find atheists to be borderline missionary at times, what's their issue if someone believes in something, why would I harm them in any way long as if I don't get harmed myself. I have no respect for religion but good manners I will always return

[Sigurd]

Christianity has a "simple" answer.

The first soul was Adam, the next Eve... then the whole inter marriage began giving birth to humans with souls..and then the flood killed off any unwanted species making Noah the new father of humans.

They really don't touch the pre-adamites or dinosaurs. None of the denominations have a good answer for that.
The problem starts when some take the bible texts literally and tries to explain away the bones found in the strata (pseudo science).
They should really just let it lie... and answer: we don't know, it has not been revealed to us.

[Kadagar_AV]

Christianity has a "simple" answer.

The first soul was Adam, the next Eve... then the whole inter marriage began giving birth to humans with souls..and then the flood killed off any unwanted species making Noah the new father of humans.

They really don't touch the pre-adamites or dinosaurs. None of the denominations have a good answer for that.
The problem starts when some take the bible texts literally and tries to explain away the bones found in the strata (pseudo science).
They should really just let it lie... and answer: we don't know, it has not been revealed to us.

Well, the whole basis of my OP was about believing in God AND evolution.

Of course I know the easy answer of Adam and Eve, but it's not really what this is about. If people want to believe in wacky things it's fine by me, it's only when they try to incorporate it with science that I start to question their beliefs.

ACIN, I generally don't bother supplying sources to things covered by education lower than university, and that can also be found in about 2 seconds using google.

I mean, you COULD, say, google "neanderthal burials" or something. It's not like it's super science hidden in some dark corner of the web.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well, the whole basis of my OP was about believing in God AND evolution.

Of course I know the easy answer of Adam and Eve, but it's not really what this is about. If people want to believe in wacky things it's fine by me, it's only when they try to incorporate it with science that I start to question their beliefs.

ACIN, I generally don't bother supplying sources to things covered by education lower than university, and that can also be found in about 2 seconds using google.

I mean, you COULD, say, google "neanderthal burials" or something. It's not like it's super science hidden in some dark corner of the web.

The wiki page on Neanderthal behavior:
Although much has been made of the Neanderthals' burial of their dead, their burials were less elaborate than those of anatomically modern humans. The interpretation of the Shanidar IV burials as including flowers, and therefore being a form of ritual burial,^[25] has been questioned.^[26] On the other hand, five of the six flower pollens found with Shanidar IV are known to have had 'traditional' medical uses, even among relatively recent 'modern' populations. In some cases Neanderthal burials include grave goods, such as bison and aurochs bones, tools, and thepigmentochre.

Here is my source, "Maps of Time" by David Christian (Chapter 6)
"Neanderthals first appear in the archaeological record about 130,000 years ago, and they vanish from the record as recently as 25,000 years ago. Their brains were as large, and perhaps even larger than, those of modern humans, but their bodies were tougher and stockier. They clearly has the ability to hunt, and this enabled them to occupy Ice Age landscapes that had not been inhabited by any earlier hominines-for example, in parts of modern Ukraine and southern Russia. However their hunting methods were inefficient and unsystematic in comparison with those of modern foragers, or even humans of the upper Paleolithic era. Their stone tools, usually described as Mousterian, are more complex than those of erectus, but show far less variety and precision than the stone tools of modern humans. There are hints of Neanderthal art or burial ritual, both of which might have signaled an increased use of symbolic communication (but the evidence is ambiguous). And there is little sign of great social complexity. Like earlier hominines, Neanderthals seems to have lived primarily in simple family groups that had limited contact with each other. There is no evidence that Neanderthals could have had the same impact on the planet as modern humans."

[Sigurd]

Well, the whole basis of my OP was about believing in God AND evolution.

Of course I know the easy answer of Adam and Eve, but it's not really what this is about. If people want to believe in wacky things it's fine by me, it's only when they try to incorporate it with science that I start to question their beliefs.

Yes, this is what it is all about. You notice that I said soul and not human. By doing this, they cover their backs. In this way they open up for evolution AND Christianity. The ones that firmly hold to the six days of creation should rething their position, which is not IMO the orthodox position, but rather a fringe neo-christian/evangelical thing.

By reading extra canonical material - you will stumble over many pieces about how God agonized about whether to blow the soul of Adam into a tabernacle of clay/dust and other container synonyms, or not.
Knowing a thing or two about interpreting such, you could conclude that the first soul was put into a human form, a form prepared for this event. And there is nothing that really persuades against this form coming through evolution.
Reading genesis with evolution in mind is not impossible.

[Papewaio]

Mainly for Europeans...
"According to the study as much as 1–4% of the genome of the population that populated Eurasia was contributed by Neanderthals" - Wikipedia

[Fragony]

No idea what you said but because I am writing this from an iPad I just can't, browser isn't functioning

Ah, works now, do NOT buy an iPad it's terrible it just doesn't work

[Papewaio]

No idea what you said but because I am writing this from an iPad I just can't, browser isn't functioning

Ah, works now, do NOT buy an iPad it's terrible it just doesn't work

I've been writing my replies for years now on an iPhone... That's why I've decreased my number of smilies as they are hard to deploy from a phone.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think this is a really interesting topic - it's not one I have an answer for.

A better way of asking the question might be - so Dolphins have souls, and if so was there a Dolphin Jesus?

The only answer I have is, we don't know because we can't talk to Dolphins.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The only answer I have is, we don't know because we can't talk to Dolphins.

Long conversations still prove a bit tricky, but work is well under way in this field. Also, we can communicate (in writing, no less) with Bonobos, that is: we can teach them how to communicate with us.

[Strike For The South]

I don't think evolution works the way you think it does.

but in any event here is the catholic chruchs stance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

Catholics would probably argue the soul is intrinsic due to original sin, it was always there whether we knew it or not.

[Fragony]

Some say that the lack of Catholism was what proved to be a rationalised society, ask CA he's the expert

[Rhyfelwyr]

Not trying to make a point as such, but just throwing it out there that neanderthals are nowhere near the closest-related non-humans to have human-like burial rituals.

[rvg]

Not trying to make a point as such, but just throwing it out there that neanderthals are nowhere near the closest-related non-humans to have human-like burial rituals.

I'm sure that Lord Ganesha has something special in store for them.

[Kadagar_AV]

Not trying to make a point as such, but just throwing it out there that neanderthals are nowhere near the closest-related non-humans to have human-like burial rituals.

I was about to get to that in time ;)

I do find the idea of "when did it start" extremely interesting though. I mean, to me it's all bogus of course, but what I find interesting is the intellectual skipping one would have to do to believe in evolution AND the christian god.

[Brenus]

I do not believe in any of these Religious Tales...
However, I vaguely remember from my University (History of Religions) that the Neanderthals, having never heard of the words of Christ will be in Heaven as they couldn't reject his teaching. Same for born before Christ or the one who never heard of Him. This include Aliens, in case they are some somewhere (mostly probable) and they never heard of Christ (even more probable)...

[Sigurd]

However, I vaguely remember from my University (History of Religions) that the Neanderthals, having never heard of the words of Christ will be in Heaven as they couldn't reject his teaching. Same for born before Christ or the one who never heard of Him. This include Aliens, in case they are some somewhere (mostly probable) and they never heard of Christ (even more probable)...

Good points... which brings us the question: How universal was Christ's atonement?
This is a disputed point in Christianity. Some hold to the absolute universal, as in every world created by God, is under the umberella of Christ's grace (Mormonism) to Calvinistic predeterminated selected grace. Only those chosen from the beginning will be saved.