Euro Area

[Conradus]

The whole idea behind the Union is that you can't discriminate the citizens of other member states.

[Fragony]

The whole idea behind the Union is that you can't discriminate the citizens of other member states.

que

[SoFarSoGood]

Taxes are an area where the EU has no direct say. The only thing the European Union forces member states to do is not to discriminate other European citizens with your national tax system.

Who's paying for the bailouts? Taxes... mine (partly) and more tax payers in the euro area. How can you say they have no direct say? IF they get Unified State then they will have TOTAL say... not even you Prime Minister or President can 'veto' it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think Europe allows for greater regionism and getter control of areas by the people, instead of a enforced nation state. There is a lot less hassle and trouble gaining independence through a European framework. I don't think Scotland, Catalan, Scania, Venice, etc being far more autonomous and independent as a bad thing at all.

How is an enforced international state better?

At least most of the people in Italy/German/France/the UK can understand each other.

SFSG is wrong about Scotland - they would automatically succeed to the EU because they would "inherit" membership, but he's also right because as a new country it is doubtful they would inherit the UK's opt-outs, meaning they would not be able to create a new currency but would have to choose between pound and Euro.

The EU is an ideaological project and therefore a bad thing.

Anyone who suggests to the contrary, that politics driven by ideaology is a good thing, should go looking for their common sense because thy've clearly taken leave of it.

[Greyblades]

I dont understand scottish independance personally, I understand (probably imperfectly) that they haven't been treated all that different from english members of the population for 200 years beyond natural nationalistic ribbing over sports and the like, and historically scotland is probably one of the countries England's treated the best. (not saying much but still)

[Kralizec]

2. This is a bit more complex so let's take Scotland as an example. If Scotland leaves the UK what currency does it use? The UK is a member of the EU but 'Scotland' as such is NOT. Legaly it must apply to join the EU (same would be for true Catalonia etc also). Now if Scotland apply to join the EU they are obliged to join the euro - but even the hairbrained Scottish Nationalists don't want to do that; they sensibly wish to keep the £. That though is NOT an option...

Wrong, as PVC pointed out.

The problems of what currency the Scots would use is a relevant question though. They can't keep using the pound if the English won't allow them to, obviously. They could go for a currency opt-out like the British or the Danes. Wether that would be a good idea is another question.

3. IF you are part of a Single European State you may have broken away from an "enforced nation state" but you are already in part of an 'enforced superstate'; out of the frying pan and into the fire! IT does not matter anymore! Your taxes and laws all come from Brussels and are mostly 'directives' which you have to obey. You vote means NOTHING regionaly because someone beaurocrat in Brussels dictates where your taxes will be spent. Did you elect him? No. Can you get rid of him? Well there may be ways that will occur to some but they are not 'legal'. Can your MEP do anything about it? Only refuse time and again what he is asked to vote on... so no. He cannot repeal any laws or create new ones. That's it pal... end game and LOSE for you.

Yeah, I'm against that, just like I'd be against any plans the EU might develop in the future to murder kittens and to clone Hitler. Those are bad ideas.

Can you guys please stop throwing around these purely hypothetical scenarios as if they have any bearing on the presesnt situation? If you want to discuss specific transfers of power to Brussels, fine. Just don't use these inane slippery slope arguments that Brussels is inevitably going to become a centralized seat of power where bureaucrats will micromanage every detail of your personal life; arguments that are purely speculative and which have no basis in reality or common sense.

[Greyblades]

Can you guys please stop throwing around these purely hypothetical scenarios as if they have any bearing on the presesnt situation? If you want to discuss specific transfers of power to Brussels, fine. Just don't use these inane slippery slope arguments that Brussels is inevitably going to become a centralized seat of power where bureaucrats will micromanage every detail of your personal life; arguments that are purely speculative and which have no basis in reality or common sense.

If it helps, there hasn't been a country to date competent enough to successfuly maintain a orwellian dystopia, the European union cant even manage it's economy so the chances of it being the first are remote at best.

[gaelic cowboy]

Wrong, as PVC pointed out.

The problems of what currency the Scots would use is a relevant question though. They can't keep using the pound if the English won't allow them to, obviously. They could go for a currency opt-out like the British or the Danes. Wether that would be a good idea is another question.

Not true in the slightest since The Bank of Scotland already has the right to print sterling, the Bank of England would have no say except for interest rates.

Since Scotland would technically be using a one of one link it will resemble The Punt which technically a separate currency was basically a green Sterling note. In fact the only time real problems were experienced with currency valuations or interest rates is when Ireland is in any kind of euro pie in the sky.

European Monetary System

European Exchange Rate Mechanism

European Currency Unit

Economic and monetary union

The result of joining all these mad schemes has been the eruption of European sovereign debt crisis in which the solution is to cut a forest down so a tiny weed can grow.


Scotland can easy get round the EU and it's love of Eurodynamite by making sure they have to hold a referendum on currency issues, that would be 1-0 to Scotland against the need to join the Euro.

[Kralizec]

Hmmm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknot...pound_sterling

How quaint.

I can only assume that the Bank of Scotland and other private banks have the right to print pund sterling because an Act of Parliament says so. Which means it can be revoked.

Scotland could conceivably hold on to the printing machines and print them anyway; printing what is essenitally the currency of the remnant of the UK without their permission, but that wouldn't be very nice of them. I'd guess that there's a treaty against that sort of thing but I can't be arsed to look it up.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmmm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknot...pound_sterling

How quaint.

I can only assume that the Bank of Scotland and other private banks have the right to print pund sterling because an Act of Parliament says so. Which means it can be revoked.

Scotland could conceivably hold on to the printing machines and print them anyway; printing what is essenitally the currency of the remnant of the UK without their permission, but that wouldn't be very nice of them. I'd guess that there's a treaty against that sort of thing but I can't be arsed to look it up.

I have to stop ye there kralizec they have permission so it's not a case of printing an illegal currency, they would merely be mainting a one of one link on the currency.

Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes are NOT accepted in England as legal tender however they are backed by the Bank of England as legal tender in both those places. Indeed many Irish are often caught out by there bank or bureau de change where they arrive in England with Northern banknotes and end up refused as I was in a pub in Cheltenham.

Basically nothing would change they wouldn't even need to remove the Queen from them.

[Kralizec]

...

The United Kingdom is a strange thing.

[Greyblades]

...

The United Kingdom is a strange thing.

That's what makes it awesome!

[SoFarSoGood]

SFSG is wrong about Scotland - they would automatically succeed to the EU because they would "inherit" membership

In an interview with the BBC, Barroso said he would not discuss Scotland's future within the UK.

"I am not going to speculate now about possible secessions, it is not my job. But I can tell you that to join the European Union, yes, we have a procedure. It is a procedure of international law," he said.

"A state has to be a democracy first of all, and that state has to apply to become a member of the European Union and all the other member states have to give their consent. A new state, if it wants to join the European Union, has to apply to become a member like any state. In fact, I see no country leaving and I see many countries wanting to join."

The matter is by no means certain. IF Scotland does not 'inherit' membership, as Barroso suggests, then it has to apply and if it applies and joins it must join the euro. There are no 'opt outs' for new members.

[gaelic cowboy]

In an interview with the BBC, Barroso said he would not discuss Scotland's future within the UK.

"I am not going to speculate now about possible secessions, it is not my job. But I can tell you that to join the European Union, yes, we have a procedure. It is a procedure of international law," he said.

"A state has to be a democracy first of all, and that state has to apply to become a member of the European Union and all the other member states have to give their consent. A new state, if it wants to join the European Union, has to apply to become a member like any state. In fact, I see no country leaving and I see many countries wanting to join."

The matter is by no means certain. IF Scotland does not 'inherit' membership, as Barroso suggests, then it has to apply and if it applies and joins it must join the euro. There are no 'opt outs' for new members.

Since there already subject to various directives it would merely be a rubber stamp.

[SoFarSoGood]

In theory though the remaining UK could block Scottish entry as our consent would be needed. Same with Spain if Catalonia left etc...

[Kralizec]

I vaguely recall that years ago I read the exact opposite - an EU commission member, or one of their monkeys, said that Scots already had the status of "EU citizens" and that it would not change if they left the UK.

It has never happened before, so we won't know for sure until Scotland/Catalonia/Venice/Whatever does break off and the question becomes immediately relevant.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm sure the simplest explanation is the most likely here - Barroso does not know the relevant EU law.

Something to think about.

[Fragony]

Kewl, pics of the Greek riots because that plumb eastblock workhorse Merkel visits them. Much to anyone's surprise a lot of Godwins http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/f...in-griekenland (how much do these uniforms cost?)

Which is pretty hypocrite with a party like Golden Dawn being so popular, they are the real thing

edit: it has to be said though, Merkel really looks like Hitler.

[SoFarSoGood]

So Madrid have today banned any Catalonian vote on secession says Reuters but the Catalans asked the EU if it was legal in September. Divide and rule...

[Beskar]

So Madrid have today banned any Catalonian vote on secession says Reuters but the Catalans asked the EU if it was legal in September. Divide and rule...

But under one Europe, wouldn't everyone be together as one? Standing together against the threats of China, Russia and the US?

[SoFarSoGood]

So thought others that tried to impose their will on Europe so on one level; not if it's at the cost of freedom.

But to answer your more direct question I suppose that's an interesting debatable topic. If you consider the 'world empires' of say 500 years ago you would perhaps argue that the Moguls or Chinese looked dominant but the reverse was proved true; the fractious and competitative nations of Europe - because they competing with each other - proved dominant over the 'empires'. Well that's one view anyway. I mean the Chinese had gunpowder and the printing press before us so how do you explain why they didn't prove dominant? Independence and competition, it is argued, fosters innovation etc...

[InsaneApache]

But under one Europe, wouldn't everyone be together as one? Standing together against the threats of China, Russia and the US?

Replace Europe with Jugoslavia and that went well didn't it?

[Beskar]

Then there is the whole Airbus and BAE systems merger, which was based on the need of cooperation to compete against the likes of Boeing.

There were also the times where competition reaches such a level, everything underneath it collapses, as you said yourself "divide and rule". A Non-united Europe is easier to have dominance over than an United Europe. You have the Eastern Bloc countries in particular under the sway of Russia, then the more Western under the sway of America, where Britain is seen as America's lapdog.

I agree. A corrupt unaccountable European government is a disaster-waiting-to-happen though what is really ironic, most of the unaccountability of Europe is down to the euro-sceptics who refuse to allow the creation of a legitimate European government. Most of the bureaucracy is built around protecting individual interest opposed to collective interest. I said in the beginning of the Euro that this was the big draw back as there was no political enforcement as there was no political will, the political will in place ran along the lines of "have your cake and eat it".

[Beskar]

Replace Europe with Jugoslavia and that went well didn't it?

Apples and Oranges, I don't think ethic cleansing would occurring in the Europe Union, plus Yugoslavia collapsed after a very bad economic bankruptcy due to Western powers blocking Yugoslavian exports. In the beginning there were even many plans for further mergers and the creation of the Balkan Federation, but this was stopped by Stalin.

In return, I could reply with "United States of America", "Germany" and other such examples...

[SoFarSoGood]

Then there is the whole Airbus and BAE systems merger, which was based on the need of cooperation to compete against the likes of Boeing.

Merkel blocked it and it was BAE Systems and EADS which is Franco German.

A corrupt unaccountable European government is a disaster-waiting-to-happen though what is really ironic, most of the unaccountability of Europe is down to the euro-sceptics who refuse to allow the creation of a legitimate European government.

What? So it was those who argued that the euro was a bad idea and were not in Government who allowed the appointed Commission that alone can propose laws? How did they do that? Who was it that forced through the Lisbon Treaty? Those who voted against the Constitution? I am afraid you are mistaken.

[Papewaio]

Apples and Oranges, I don't think ethic cleansing would occurring in the Europe Union,

Why not? History says otherwise. If the EU collapses to be like Greece you will get Golden Dawns gaining strength everywhere. Both they, Germany's Brown Shirts and Italy's Black Shirts rose to power in collapsing economies. Spain's facists came to power slightly differently but again on the back of poverty.

It is not like Europeans have fundamentally changed it is their economies and being the potential nuclear battlefield between two superpowers that dampened warlike and racist tendancies.

How are Romas being treated in the EUs collapsing economies? Take a good look and you will see that old racial tension festering. Of course the cries will be they steal, abuse welfare, don't work, commit crimes. I'm sure the economic losses they cause will be paltry compared to the banks and speculators. But the Gypsyies are a much more accessible people to make an example of and as economies collapse populist leaders need to show their strength credentials.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Apples and Oranges, I don't think ethic cleansing would occurring in the Europe Union, plus Yugoslavia collapsed after a very bad economic bankruptcy due to Western powers blocking Yugoslavian exports. In the beginning there were even many plans for further mergers and the creation of the Balkan Federation, but this was stopped by Stalin.

In return, I could reply with "United States of America", "Germany" and other such examples...

The US and Germany have shared narratives that bind them together and define a unified national character - the only unifying narrative across Europe is the fight to prevent the spread of Islam, otherwise European history is one of conflict and constantly shifting Alliances.

The Germans and the Brits and the Dutch beat Napoleon, The Brits the French and the Poles and Czechs beat Hitler...

There isn't a common narrative until you go back to Ancient Rome, and that doesn't include the Germans.

The current talk of "irreversible" Union is historically myopic because there will be another war in Europe, it is just a question of when.

The question of countering China is a valid one, and it is worth pointing out that European politics meant that the initial response to Napoleon, Lenin, and Hitler was woefully inadequate, but it remains a fact that co-operation does not require Union and that enforced Union is not a good idea because a House Divided will fall. Better in that case for Europe to be many houses instead of one.

[Beskar]

The question of countering China is a valid one, and it is worth pointing out that European politics meant that the initial response to Napoleon, Lenin, and Hitler was woefully inadequate, but it remains a fact that co-operation does not require Union and that enforced Union is not a good idea because a House Divided will fall. Better in that case for Europe to be many houses instead of one.

Admittedly, I am in the mind of a European Federation or a Strong Confederation. I would naturally prefer the first for ideological reasons, but I can accept the second for practical reasons. Either way, I don't believe in strong centralisation, I believe administration should be at the regional level. Only things that I believe should be nation/supernatural are matters such as defence.

Also believe in a "Constitution". For example, like America's, which ensures a rule of law which helps prevent abuse or "worst come" situations that people dread, and enshrine Human Rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

[SoFarSoGood]

The US Constitution is something like 2 pages... the EU one over 3000. The point 'basic principles' are fine but the EU wants to control everything. We also have shared defence organisation by the way... it's called NATO. Why then do we need a European Army at the beck and call of the unelected?

[Fragony]

Why not? History says otherwise. If the EU collapses to be like Greece you will get Golden Dawns gaining strength everywhere. Both they, Germany's Brown Shirts and Italy's Black Shirts rose to power in collapsing economies. Spain's facists came to power slightly differently but again on the back of poverty.

It is not like Europeans have fundamentally changed it is their economies and being the potential nuclear battlefield between two superpowers that dampened warlike and racist tendancies.

How are Romas being treated in the EUs collapsing economies? Take a good look and you will see that old racial tension festering. Of course the cries will be they steal, abuse welfare, don't work, commit crimes. I'm sure the economic losses they cause will be paltry compared to the banks and speculators. But the Gypsyies are a much more accessible people to make an example of and as economies collapse populist leaders need to show their strength credentials.

I don't see such a thing happening really but I won't say it's impossible.