French special forces operation foiled by villagers

[rvg]

rvg Albania is a Muslim country...

Technically yes it is. The thing is that Albania spent many decades under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship that would make Todor Zhivkov look like a western liberal. It was basically a European version of North Korea. One of the sideffects of a regime with this level of brutality is that it is EXTREMELY good at eliminating competition. Religion was that competition, and it was destroyed not only in terms of converting mosques into storehouses, but it was utterly burned out of people's minds. This isn't Bulgaria or Russia where the local Orthodox Church was tolerated. Religion in Albania was utterly crushed, especially among the majority population.
So yes, you can say that Albania is nominally muslim, but the word "muslim" needs a huge asterisk and a footnote next to it.

[Fisherking]

Technically yes it is. The thing is that Albania spent many decades under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship that would make Todor Zhivkov look like a western liberal. It was basically a European version of North Korea. One of the sideffects of a regime with this level of brutality is that it is EXTREMELY good at eliminating competition. Religion was that competition, and it was destroyed not only in terms of converting mosques into storehouses, but it was utterly burned out of people's minds. This isn't Bulgaria or Russia where the local Orthodox Church tolerated. Religion in Albania was utterly crushed, especially among the majority population.
So yes, you can say that Albania is nominally muslim, but the word "muslim" needs a huge asterisk and a footnote next to it.

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

[rvg]

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

That would be the case if religion was suppressed. In case of Albania it wasn't suppressed, it was exterminated.

[HoreTore]

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

That would be the case if religion was suppressed. In case of Albania it wasn't suppressed, it was exterminated.

We have indeed seen fire, brimstone and jew-on-a-stake in orthodox ex-sovjets, with worrying fundamentalism on the rise. Ditto for the muslim republics.

Except Albania, of course. Compare Albania to Chechnya, and you get your "Hoxha-effect".

[Sarmatian]

Send me the gypsies

In 2 generations they will be pumping out as many movies and peace prizes as those dirty jews

We have indeed seen fire, brimstone and jew-on-a-stake in orthodox ex-sovjets, with worrying fundamentalism on the rise. Ditto for the muslim republics.

Except Albania, of course. Compare Albania to Chechnya, and you get your "Hoxha-effect".

It is funny how people can't think outside a framework.
Eastern europe, Balkans especially -> we don't understand -> therefore it's not like us -> therefore it's bad.

Get your hillbilly communities to produce movies and get nobel prizes, first instead of them living in trash in the Appalachians. And compared to the gypsies, those hillbillies look like they eat everyday with the Queen of England.

There are integrated gypsies, those who decided to take the opportunity to get schooling and get a job. The problem is what to do with those that don't want to.

Maybe you're right.

I've had some hot discussions in real life with people about this (Roma kids). It's my firm opinion that a child's right to a good education trumps parents' rights in regards to their children any day of the week. If the parents are uncapable or unwilling to facilitate that, child protection services should come into play. Someone once called me a fascist for that.

Personally, I agree with it. I'd take away most Roma children, any children, from their parents, if they don't provide for them properly. But, now imagine what would happen - Horetore would read in the papers how in Serbia, Roma children are taken away from their parents and would again start shouting barbarism and cruelty. He would probably spin it in such a way in his head that it would appear to him that children are taken from parents just because they're gypsies. There would be an international outrage at the treatment of Roma.

Then again, more than 3/4 of children in orphanages are Roma kids who had simply been abandoned by their parents or taken away.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's remember that it is rather easy being socialistic and condemning of others, when you live in a more homogeneous and very rich country.

HoreTore is Norwegian, they have oil and lack 300.000 gypsies.

[HoreTore]

We're no bett - we have already done the "take gypsy kids from their parents and convert them to proper norwegians"-part. You Swedes did the same by the way, Kadagar.

One of the darkest parts of our history, and it was under 50 years ago. Guess what - all it did was ruin lives. Shocker. I wish the US had stepped in and stopped our barbarity, and I sincerely hope they will do it should any Balkan country repeat our barbarity.

Heck, we weren't satisfied with just one failure, we tried the same on at least 3 different ethnic groups to prove beyond doubt what an utterly idiotic idea it is.

I don't presume to have the answer to all questions in life, but here's a starter:

First and most important of all, cease the "gypsies are retards"-attitude. Yes, it's prevalent in the Balkans(heck, all of europe), and no positive change will occur before it's gone. Secondly, examine why those who succeed did it. Closely. Without the aforementioned prejudices. Then, do it.

Culture is a hoax, the world consists of various socio-economic classes. Roma problems are socio-economic problems.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Get your hillbilly communities to produce movies and get nobel prizes, first instead of them living in trash in the Appalachians. And compared to the gypsies, those hillbillies look like they eat everyday with the Queen of England.

There are integrated gypsies, those who decided to take the opportunity to get schooling and get a job. The problem is what to do with those that don't want to.

Pretty much, though admittedly the bit about the Queen might have something to do with inbreeding. The thing is for the Roma to be part of the host society they simply have to give up their way of life, and they understandably do not want to. But the consequence is that they are less integrated, successful and committed to their host society (as in: acknowledging and in keeping with the law) than your average drug addicted tramp.

It's not necessarily malice or ill-will on either side either. We are a settled society, but a large number of Roma would prefer a nomadic way of life. Nomadism is inherently incompatible as it implies a very destructive lifestyle which effectively destroys a patch of land before moving on to the next. Settled people who used to live on that patch of land would get upset at having it ruined. So having a fixed abode, and holding down a steady job is kind of important over here as is the rule of law (in promptu conflict resolution through acts of violence are frowned upon over here). Respect for individual property rights is important, which means you cannot just claim any patch of land that looks suitable. We also have a welfare society which is predicated on people putting in and not just taking out. This might seem strange over in the USA, but it means you have to pay taxes, too.

All those immigrants America is so proud of having assimilated at least could agree on that, if for no other reason than the fact that they had no other choice. So all there ever was to do is the gradual process of acculturation which yielded assimilation. Roma do, and they would beg to differ from the rest of Europe on these matters, which makes integration let alone assimilation so hard.

The alternative is for the host country to give up its own ways and join the Roma, which apart from everything else would promptly result in mass famine and pollution as it is hugely inefficient and unsustainable way of life, so that is not going to happen very soon either.