Sweden 2012

[Kadagar_AV]

No, actually rape by close relatives/friends is worse for the psychological health of the victim, as far as we know. Or actually as far as I remember. Need to check it out if it's really relevant.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't talking about domestic rapes. Regardless though, I don't believe you. Hubby not accepting a "no" probably have less psychological impact than being beaten and chain raped by a gang of black people.

But please do prove me wrong if you can be bothered. I find it very hard to believe.

Hearsay or any study indicating that?

I don't think there are any studies on it, it's just what I have picked up by the girls in my surroundings. But as mentioned, the AIDS factor alone would be enough to swing the decision for me (we don't screen for that when we accept people from highly afflicted countries).

[Kival]

Oh, sorry. I wasn't talking about domestic rapes. Regardless though, I don't believe you. Hubby not accepting a "no" probably have less psychological impact than being beaten and chain raped by a gang of black people.

But please do prove me wrong if you can be bothered. I find it very hard to believe.

I'll have a look at it. Maybe not this weekend though, need to actually look at some other statistics for study.

I don't think there are any studies on it, it's just what I have picked up by the girls in my surroundings. But as mentioned, the AIDS factor alone would be enough to swing the decision for me (we don't screen for that when we accept people from highly afflicted countries).

I see. Are we speaking about women who have been actually raped or women, who have not been raped but say beforehand they would feel worse raped by a foreigner? That's very different. Because being raped by a foreigner when you also already believe them to be likely rapists doesn't shock your image of the world and yourself so much as a by a non-immigrant (especially a close relative). Physically (!) and short-term it's of course worse to be assault raped but domestic rape leads to suspicion, even paranoia to other close friends. It tends to damage if not destroy your whole social contacts, while assault rape sometimes even strengthens your social bonds. I do realize that I'm mixing up the question of foreign/native and domestic/assault but the thing is that these tend to go hand in hand. Domestic rape from immigrants to non-immigrants tend not to happen very often.

But I'm really curious about the statistics of the victims. In your numbers claiming these high percentage of immigrant rapists, do they include the status of the victim, too?

[Fragony]

All Swedish girls

[Montmorency]

I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).

I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?

If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).

[Fragony]

I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?

If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).

Reading tip, don't worry this is no rightwing nutjob http://www.dambisamoyo.com/books-and.../book/dead-aid

She's smart AND cute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dambisa_Moyo

[Kadagar_AV]

I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?

If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).

I am sorry, but I have a very hard time taking your seriously when you argue like this. Either you are trolling, or you actually BELIEVE that sustainable solutions for the third world is less feasible than moving the third world here.

Regardless, I see it as unfruitful and a waste of my time to continue debating you.

Or do you want to explain how you attempt to move and support these billions of people?

[Montmorency]

you actually BELIEVE that sustainable solutions for the third world is less feasible than moving the third world here.

I'll say it again: I don't. Read my posts carefully. Don't be thick. All I want to get across is that your concerns are hyperbolic - they may just be overblown. Consider it.

Something should be done there.

A few hundred people are responsible for a few hundred rapes. Treat them according to the law. Why should this affect hundreds of thousands?

[Kadagar_AV]

I'll have a look at it. Maybe not this weekend though, need to actually look at some other statistics for study.



I see. Are we speaking about women who have been actually raped or women, who have not been raped but say beforehand they would feel worse raped by a foreigner? That's very different. Because being raped by a foreigner when you also already believe them to be likely rapists doesn't shock your image of the world and yourself so much as a by a non-immigrant (especially a close relative). Physically (!) and short-term it's of course worse to be assault raped but domestic rape leads to suspicion, even paranoia to other close friends. It tends to damage if not destroy your whole social contacts, while assault rape sometimes even strengthens your social bonds. I do realize that I'm mixing up the question of foreign/native and domestic/assault but the thing is that these tend to go hand in hand. Domestic rape from immigrants to non-immigrants tend not to happen very often.

But I'm really curious about the statistics of the victims. In your numbers claiming these high percentage of immigrant rapists, do they include the status of the victim, too?

Both, I know some women who have been raped too. Unfortunately also a girl, and as I was her teacher (but not mentor) at the time I had to be part of handling it. Regardless though... My main point is that a VERY small percentage of the people stand for a VERY big percentage of the rapes. Something should be done there.

However, why are you so set on the rape statistics, and not the other questions at hand?

No the numbers does not include the victims (Sweden censor most information regarding this, not to help racists make a case).

However, assault gang rapes are a big enough thing in this small country for it to get to the news, and yeah, all the victims I have heard of are blonde ethnic girls.

[Kival]

My main point is that a VERY small percentage of the people stand for a VERY big percentage of the rapes. Something should be done there.

For the *reported* rapes.

However, why are you so set on the rape statistics, and not the other questions at hand?

Because people here use it as if sweden would be worse than 3rd world countries, while it actually doesn't have much more than average rapes? Because interpretation here show the lack of interpretation ability regarding statistics? Just as a note, in nearly all rapes alcohol took part, so maybe we also should look at alcohol and alcoholism as a problem. Because misinterpretation of criminal data is a huge problem in societies image of the criminality?

EDIT: What is that other question at hand, that you mean?

However, assault gang rapes are a big enough thing in this small country for it to get to the news, and yeah, all the victims I have heard of are blonde ethnic girls.

For assault rapes I can believe it, but still want solid information. Anyway...

[Kadagar_AV]

For the *reported* rapes.



Because people here use it as if sweden would be worse than 3rd world countries, while it actually doesn't have much more than average rapes? Because interpretation here show the lack of interpretation ability regarding statistics? Just as a note, in nearly all rapes alcohol took part, so maybe we also should look at alcohol and alcoholism as a problem. Because misinterpretation of criminal data is a huge problem in societies image of the criminality?

EDIT: What is that other question at hand, that you mean?




For assault rapes I can believe it, but still want solid information. Anyway...

Yes of course reported rapes. We can't discuss unreported things, now can we? Or should we all just guess a number?

"people here" would probably be Fragony, so that doesn't count. Don't drag ME into his little fantasy realm.

About alcohol, huge factor in rapes, minimal factor in assault rapes (many Muslims don't drink). Other drugs though...


Last bit, sorry, no solid info to be given. As I said, censored. But I doubt anyone who had been around Sweden over the years would argue against it.

[Kival]

Yes of course reported rapes. We can't discuss unreported things, now can we? Or should we all just guess a number?

There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.

[Kadagar_AV]

There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.

Haven't heard about it over here :)

[HoreTore]

There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.

This is also how corruption is measured by the way, and also how the 8000-16000 estimate range for number of actual annual rapes in Norway was made.

The method is of course not without problems, but it's the best way we have to measure things we don't have(or can't have) hard statistics on.

Sadly, except when it comes to corruption, it's mostly ignored outside academia.

[Kival]

http://bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/hom...me-survey.html

This is of course not a international comparison itself and still can not be used for direct comparisons.