Sweden 2012

[Hax]

No, Muslim girls get shot in the head for defending the right to education. They have it easy!

[Montmorency]

Monty, are you on drugs? No really, where do you find me supporting "kicking everybody out".

You're missing the point.

Second generation immigrants aren't exactly turning out to be the model citizens we had hoped for.

What are you basing this on? And how about third, and on?

Long term drain on the economy... There is not one economist who think this is good for Sweden financially.

You still haven't demonstrated long-term economic harm.

We need to take care of those we have here properly, and we need to think twice before accepting more. Again, we accept 1+% of our population a year.

Going by the Wiki, it's more like 0.1%. Where did you get that figure from again? Anyway, you seem to be conflating "immigrant" with "poor, black, Muslim". The majority of your immigrants remain European.

Don't mistake your nations problems with mine, please.

Huh?

About the last bit, sorry, that's how I see it. It's completely UNHEARD of to have a bunch of white guys roaming the streets looking for a immigrant girl to rape, but the other way around has happened frequently. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's true.

Ah, so ethnic Swedes never rape brown women? Where did you learn this?

Again, assault rape statistics are VERY one sided. Whether you like it or not. And maybe Muslim girls get gang raped too, but we have yet to see the victims, so for now I have to assume the attacks are targeted specifically at white girls.

Racial hate goes both ways you know.

There are two main ways of looking at it. The first is that these Muslim women are repressed and wouldn't typically report non-consensual sexual behavior on the part of spouses or relatives. The second is that the Muslims - especially black ones - just can't wait to get at the white women. You honestly don't find anything funny about the second interpretation?

Moreover, assault rapes: are you referring to Sweden or Norway here? After all, if Sweden is anything like Norway in this respect, then immigrant assault rapes aren't a huge problem.

Second generation immigrants aren't exactly turning out to be the model citizens we had hoped for. About social safety it gets dismantled bit by bit. I have a hard time imagining ANY Swede would argue against that. The most clear example is that we have gone from a socialist country to a liberal one. People thought socialism was OK back when we were more homogeneous, but now we're not we have suddenly started to think "Hey, why should I pay for him". It's sad, I miss the old Sweden.

So, it's all about immigration and has nothing to do with Sweden's economic struggles in the 90s?

[Kadagar_AV]

No, Muslim girls get shot in the head for defending the right to education. They have it easy!

EXACTLY my point.

There are HUGE numbers of people who would benefit from Sweden's help (and other western nations of course). The solution to that problem is not "Get them all here", unless you want to more or less empty the third world and settle them in the western one.

The solution to things like that must be to help and support people locally. As I have argued countless times, for the same money we spend on 10 Somalis here, we can feed, clothe and educate a hundred there.

THAT is a progressive and sustainable way to make the world a better place. I don't want Sweden to in 2 generations look like this: http://www.radicalcartography.net/in...ml?chicagodots

Let's face it... People like HoreTore and Monty like to pretend we all want to be together, but when people are given a choice, they choose not to. So why try and force it?

[Montmorency]

People like HoreTore and Monty like to pretend we all want to be together, but when people are given a choice, they choose not to.

When did I say that? Try again, and this time try to put together an actual argument for why Sweden can't handle its current levels of immigration.

The solution to things like that must be to help and support people locally. As I have argued countless times, for the same money we spend on 10 Somalis here, we can feed, clothe and educate a hundred there.

100? I would believe 12. Got anything to back this up?

[Kadagar_AV]

You're missing the point.

You'r missing mine. Don't accuse me of wanting to kick everybody out, as you then brush me off as you'r everyday EDL thug or whatever.

What are you basing this on? And how about third, and on?

We can see the effects of second gen immigration already. About third generation, I don't know? Maybe things have worked itself out, maybe we have created a new social class. Most seem to point to the latter as for now, but neither your OR I can say anything about third gen and on. My point is however, why take the risk? I mean, why have a social experiment that could wreck the country?

So I bounce this back, WHY should we continue accepting as much as we do from the countries we do, when all data at the time being - point to it having a negative effect on the country?

As I said, it's a MAJOR social experiment with unforeseeable consequences, why do you feel like risking it?

You still haven't demonstrated long-term economic harm.

Uh, have a look at, say, the PISA test results over the last decades. Sweden is in free fall, most Swedes just haven't realized it yet.

Going by the Wiki, it's more like 0.1%. Where did you get that figure from again? Anyway, you seem to be conflating "immigrant" with "poor, black, Muslim". The majority of your immigrants remain European.

I don't get my sources from wiki.

http://www.migrationsverket.se/downl...7980/tabs1.pdf

The trend is going up rather than down, as you can see.

Ah, so ethnic Swedes never rape brown women? Where did you learn this?

I seriously start to question your reading comprehension. Re-read what I wrote and then consider whether your argument make sense or not...

There are two main ways of looking at it. The first is that these Muslim women are repressed and wouldn't typically report non-consensual sexual behavior on the part of spouses or relatives. The second is that the Muslims - especially black ones - just can't wait to get at the white women. You honestly don't find anything funny about the second interpretation?

Yes I do. So can I offer a third perspective or do you somehow think the discussion should be limited to the two perspectives you present?

Moreover, assault rapes: are you referring to Sweden or Norway here? After all, if Sweden is anything like Norway in this respect, then immigrant assault rapes aren't a huge problem.

I think I seem to have answered this... Even in DAMN big letters. This size on the letters, even. I am of course referring to Sweden, topic title should give a hint if nothing else. And as mentioned in those big letters, rape isn't my main concern. With that said, I think it's important to be respectful and don't neglect the victims by brushing it off as unimportant.

Being raped is bad. Being gang raped by a bunch of Negroes is worse.

So, it's all about immigration and has nothing to do with Sweden's economic struggles in the 90s?

Oh, we sailed through that quite nicely to be honest, and implemented strategies that has helped us loads in this latest crisis. That's why we are still floating, but with that said, we do have a BIG leak.

[Kadagar_AV]

When did I say that? Try again, and this time try to put together an actual argument for why Sweden can't handle its current levels of immigration.

Ok... so you are arguing like me then, that different cultures does not want to live together? What are you arguing against then?

100? I would believe 12. Got anything to back this up?

You believe the comparable monetary difference between Sweden and Somalia is around 20%? Really?

[Kival]

Being raped is bad. Being gang raped by a bunch of Negroes is worse.

What do you mean by that? Considering you're still speaking about white women raped, you have to mean assault rapes by immigrants. You think it's worse to be raped by a stranger than by a family member or a friend...? Or do you mean that if an assault rape happens it's better to be raped by a white rapist? Sorry, I don't get it.

[Kadagar_AV]

What do you mean by that? Considering you're still speaking about white women raped, you have to mean assault rapes by immigrants. You think it's worse to be raped by a stranger than by a family member or a friend...? Or do you mean that if an assault rape happens it's better to be raped by a white rapist? Sorry, I don't get it.

Well, first of all I find it kind of natural that gang rape would be seen as worse for the victim than being raped by a single offender. I am sure you agree.

Secondly a lot of women feel (even) worse being raped by a Negroe. Probably not a popular thing to say out loud, but I can relate to it. If it has to do with the higher risk of getting AIDS or if they just don't like black people (or whatever), I don't know. But I won't pretend it's not a popular opinion just to be politically correct.

[Montmorency]

We can see the effects of second gen immigration already. About third generation, I don't know? Maybe things have worked itself out, maybe we have created a new social class. Most seem to point to the latter as for now, but neither your OR I can say anything about third gen and on. My point is however, why take the risk? I mean, why have a social experiment that could wreck the country?

So I bounce this back, WHY should we continue accepting as much as we do from the countries we do, when all data at the time being - point to it having a negative effect on the country?

As I said, it's a MAJOR social experiment with unforeseeable consequences, why do you feel like risking it?

That's the point - you have to show that the worst-case is what will befall the country.

Uh, have a look at, say, the PISA test results over the last decades. Sweden is in free fall, most Swedes just haven't realized it yet.

Once again, long-term. Anyway, how is 3% over a decade freefall?

I don't get my sources from wiki.

What am I to look at? I can't read Swedish.

I seriously start to question your reading comprehension. Re-read what I wrote and then consider whether your argument make sense or not...

It's what you implied.

Yes I do. So can I offer a third perspective or do you somehow think the discussion should be limited to the two perspectives you present?

You outright claimed belief in the second perspective.

Being raped is bad. Being gang raped by a bunch of Negroes is worse.

Why are you so fixated on Negroes?

You believe the comparable monetary difference between Sweden and Somalia is around 20%? Really?

I'll spell it out. To feed, clothe, and educate the citizens of a foreign state up to anything resembling Swedish standards, one would have to consider expenses. Who's doing it? How are they getting there? What are they bringing with them? For how long will it last? Where in the country are they trying to have an effect? How is that country's government reacting? Is it making a strong and beneficial commitment to cooperation? Is it making things difficult? And so on...

Just sending a check to a sovereign government won't cut it. With that, you would be "helping" 10 foreigners for every 100 you could help in Sweden - more like.

I think I seem to have answered this... Even in DAMN big letters. This size on the letters, even. I am of course referring to Sweden, topic title should give a hint if nothing else. And as mentioned in those big letters, rape isn't my main concern. With that said, I think it's important to be respectful and don't neglect the victims by brushing it off as unimportant.

You really haven't. Put together a coherent and comprehensive case for why Sweden can't maintain its current immigration policies in the long term.

What are you arguing against then?

That your hysterical stance on immigration needs examination.

[Fragony]

Tada, it's gone

[Kadagar_AV]

Monty, I will try to re-phrase myself.

You ask about long term effects of mass-immigration.

I see a few possible outcomes. Some good, some bad. Right now the signs leans towards "bad". But regardless, why risk it?

There are several political approaches we can have, why do you think we should choose what looks like a high risk - low benefit one?



What do you see as the positives of mass immigration from third world countries?

There are a proven and factual set of negatives, what are the positive effects in your opinion, and why do they out weight the negatives?



I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).


There, summed it up for you.

[Kival]

Well, first of all I find it kind of natural that gang rape would be seen as worse for the victim than being raped by a single offender. I am sure you agree.

No, actually rape by close relatives/friends is worse for the psychological health of the victim, as far as we know. Or actually as far as I remember. Need to check it out if it's really relevant.

Secondly a lot of women feel (even) worse being raped by a Negroe. Probably not a popular thing to say out loud, but I can relate to it. If it has to do with the higher risk of getting AIDS or if they just don't like black people (or whatever), I don't know. But I won't pretend it's not a popular opinion just to be politically correct.

Hearsay or any study indicating that?

[Montmorency]

There are several political approaches we can have, why do you think we should choose what looks like a high risk - low benefit one?

Have you shown that it is high-risk? "Mass immigration" - from my perspective the scale of Swedish immigration doesn't merit the term. Can you provide a source for the 1% claim, or at least a translation of the one document you did link? What's the breakdown of the immigration statistics for '3rd-Worlders'? What is their growth rate as a demographic? These have some bearing.

I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).

These are claims, but there is no argument. I see no reason to accept these premises as true outright. Rather the opposite...

[Kadagar_AV]

No, actually rape by close relatives/friends is worse for the psychological health of the victim, as far as we know. Or actually as far as I remember. Need to check it out if it's really relevant.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't talking about domestic rapes. Regardless though, I don't believe you. Hubby not accepting a "no" probably have less psychological impact than being beaten and chain raped by a gang of black people.

But please do prove me wrong if you can be bothered. I find it very hard to believe.

Hearsay or any study indicating that?

I don't think there are any studies on it, it's just what I have picked up by the girls in my surroundings. But as mentioned, the AIDS factor alone would be enough to swing the decision for me (we don't screen for that when we accept people from highly afflicted countries).

[Kadagar_AV]

Have you shown that it is high-risk? "Mass immigration" - from my perspective the scale of Swedish immigration doesn't merit the term. Can you provide a source for the 1% claim, or at least a translation of the one document you did link? What's the breakdown of the immigration statistics for '3rd-Worlders'? What is their growth rate as a demographic? These have some bearing.

The leftmost column is annual "green cards".

"Yugoslavia" would be enough to understand why it's high risk.

The statistics you are asking for is officially censored by the government last I checked, so it might be hard to find official sources.

These are claims, but there is no argument. I see no reason to accept these premises as true outright. Rather the opposite...

Huh? It's just "claims"? You think it's feasible to move the entire third world population here? You don't believe in finding local sustainable solutions?

And about it weakening Sweden, as mentioned, not even the most immigrant loving politician would claim immigration isn't costing us, so why would YOU???

I hope you were joking with this last bit, or trolling, because it really doesn't read out well.

[Kival]

Oh, sorry. I wasn't talking about domestic rapes. Regardless though, I don't believe you. Hubby not accepting a "no" probably have less psychological impact than being beaten and chain raped by a gang of black people.

But please do prove me wrong if you can be bothered. I find it very hard to believe.

I'll have a look at it. Maybe not this weekend though, need to actually look at some other statistics for study.

I don't think there are any studies on it, it's just what I have picked up by the girls in my surroundings. But as mentioned, the AIDS factor alone would be enough to swing the decision for me (we don't screen for that when we accept people from highly afflicted countries).

I see. Are we speaking about women who have been actually raped or women, who have not been raped but say beforehand they would feel worse raped by a foreigner? That's very different. Because being raped by a foreigner when you also already believe them to be likely rapists doesn't shock your image of the world and yourself so much as a by a non-immigrant (especially a close relative). Physically (!) and short-term it's of course worse to be assault raped but domestic rape leads to suspicion, even paranoia to other close friends. It tends to damage if not destroy your whole social contacts, while assault rape sometimes even strengthens your social bonds. I do realize that I'm mixing up the question of foreign/native and domestic/assault but the thing is that these tend to go hand in hand. Domestic rape from immigrants to non-immigrants tend not to happen very often.

But I'm really curious about the statistics of the victims. In your numbers claiming these high percentage of immigrant rapists, do they include the status of the victim, too?

[Fragony]

All Swedish girls

[Montmorency]

I think you agree that the solution to solving the problems in the third world isn't to migrate all the citizens there to the western world. So why don't we spend our money and efforts helping people locally, building sustainable solutions, instead of paying of our guilt by letting a limited few in here (where they go on to weaken us, limiting our ability of helping at the big scene).

I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?

If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).

[Fragony]

I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?

If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).

Reading tip, don't worry this is no rightwing nutjob http://www.dambisamoyo.com/books-and.../book/dead-aid

She's smart AND cute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dambisa_Moyo

[Kadagar_AV]

I'll have a look at it. Maybe not this weekend though, need to actually look at some other statistics for study.



I see. Are we speaking about women who have been actually raped or women, who have not been raped but say beforehand they would feel worse raped by a foreigner? That's very different. Because being raped by a foreigner when you also already believe them to be likely rapists doesn't shock your image of the world and yourself so much as a by a non-immigrant (especially a close relative). Physically (!) and short-term it's of course worse to be assault raped but domestic rape leads to suspicion, even paranoia to other close friends. It tends to damage if not destroy your whole social contacts, while assault rape sometimes even strengthens your social bonds. I do realize that I'm mixing up the question of foreign/native and domestic/assault but the thing is that these tend to go hand in hand. Domestic rape from immigrants to non-immigrants tend not to happen very often.

But I'm really curious about the statistics of the victims. In your numbers claiming these high percentage of immigrant rapists, do they include the status of the victim, too?

Both, I know some women who have been raped too. Unfortunately also a girl, and as I was her teacher (but not mentor) at the time I had to be part of handling it. Regardless though... My main point is that a VERY small percentage of the people stand for a VERY big percentage of the rapes. Something should be done there.

However, why are you so set on the rape statistics, and not the other questions at hand?

No the numbers does not include the victims (Sweden censor most information regarding this, not to help racists make a case).

However, assault gang rapes are a big enough thing in this small country for it to get to the news, and yeah, all the victims I have heard of are blonde ethnic girls.

[Kadagar_AV]

I counted 22000 immigrants in 2011 from Muslim countries. That's "all the citizens"? As for Somalians: a couple thousand blacks a year won't topple the society. Note: How many Lebanese and Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi immigrants are actually Muslim?

If you're looking to improve the quality of life of 3rd-Worlders, then local solutions, whatever that means, are a terrible means relative to allowing them to settle in Sweden. This should be obvious. If there is a certain sum that the Swedish government spends to bring in and maintain immigrants, then taking that entire sum and spending it abroad, somewhere, somehow, would simply be a waste of money. Much would be siphoned off in extra administrative and logistical costs (not least due to inferior infrastructure), not to mention corruption. Clearly, an immigrant in Sweden can have a very high quality of life compared to any potential 'improvements' that might be made through donation or even direct intervention (which would be associated with political difficulties anyway).

I am sorry, but I have a very hard time taking your seriously when you argue like this. Either you are trolling, or you actually BELIEVE that sustainable solutions for the third world is less feasible than moving the third world here.

Regardless, I see it as unfruitful and a waste of my time to continue debating you.

Or do you want to explain how you attempt to move and support these billions of people?

[Montmorency]

you actually BELIEVE that sustainable solutions for the third world is less feasible than moving the third world here.

I'll say it again: I don't. Read my posts carefully. Don't be thick. All I want to get across is that your concerns are hyperbolic - they may just be overblown. Consider it.

Something should be done there.

A few hundred people are responsible for a few hundred rapes. Treat them according to the law. Why should this affect hundreds of thousands?

[Kival]

My main point is that a VERY small percentage of the people stand for a VERY big percentage of the rapes. Something should be done there.

For the *reported* rapes.

However, why are you so set on the rape statistics, and not the other questions at hand?

Because people here use it as if sweden would be worse than 3rd world countries, while it actually doesn't have much more than average rapes? Because interpretation here show the lack of interpretation ability regarding statistics? Just as a note, in nearly all rapes alcohol took part, so maybe we also should look at alcohol and alcoholism as a problem. Because misinterpretation of criminal data is a huge problem in societies image of the criminality?

EDIT: What is that other question at hand, that you mean?

However, assault gang rapes are a big enough thing in this small country for it to get to the news, and yeah, all the victims I have heard of are blonde ethnic girls.

For assault rapes I can believe it, but still want solid information. Anyway...

[Kadagar_AV]

For the *reported* rapes.



Because people here use it as if sweden would be worse than 3rd world countries, while it actually doesn't have much more than average rapes? Because interpretation here show the lack of interpretation ability regarding statistics? Just as a note, in nearly all rapes alcohol took part, so maybe we also should look at alcohol and alcoholism as a problem. Because misinterpretation of criminal data is a huge problem in societies image of the criminality?

EDIT: What is that other question at hand, that you mean?




For assault rapes I can believe it, but still want solid information. Anyway...

Yes of course reported rapes. We can't discuss unreported things, now can we? Or should we all just guess a number?

"people here" would probably be Fragony, so that doesn't count. Don't drag ME into his little fantasy realm.

About alcohol, huge factor in rapes, minimal factor in assault rapes (many Muslims don't drink). Other drugs though...


Last bit, sorry, no solid info to be given. As I said, censored. But I doubt anyone who had been around Sweden over the years would argue against it.

[Kival]

Yes of course reported rapes. We can't discuss unreported things, now can we? Or should we all just guess a number?

There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.

[Kadagar_AV]

There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.

Haven't heard about it over here :)

[Kival]

http://bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/hom...me-survey.html

This is of course not a international comparison itself and still can not be used for direct comparisons.

[HoreTore]

There are survey asking people which has happened to them in the last year or so. There we have numbers for non-reported crimes, too. This surveys are seen as much more reliable in social resarch than the police statistics.

This is also how corruption is measured by the way, and also how the 8000-16000 estimate range for number of actual annual rapes in Norway was made.

The method is of course not without problems, but it's the best way we have to measure things we don't have(or can't have) hard statistics on.

Sadly, except when it comes to corruption, it's mostly ignored outside academia.

[Fragony]

8000 to 16000, that can't be right. 80 to 160 would already be outragiously much.

[HoreTore]

8000 to 16000, that can't be right. 80 to 160 would already be outragiously much.

Then may I suggest you look into the facts before you start concluding?

80 is, btw, the number of rapists convicted annually.

The estimate range is both due to inherent uncertainty as well as definition of "rape". Some includes sexual abuse of minors, others only deal with adults(sexual abuse of minors is a violation of a different law than the rape paragraph). There's also the question of what to include - do you include only the cases with penetration, or do you include other actions, like fondling and forced naked pictures, for example?