Legalized Marijuana

[Fragony]

I think you are right. Legalisation is about recognition. Recognising that drug use is an inherent part of society that won't go away with moralising or legislating.

Why care about how it's frowned upon, just go for the easiest solution. Outright legalization doesn't really serve any purpose imho, building it down like an addiction is better

[Kralizec]

The Dutch policy does not "work".

Cannabis is still classified as an illegal drug, but there's a policy of not prosecuting people for possessing small quantities. Likewise, coffeeshops are tolerated and not prosecuted provided that they don't have an inventory exceeding 500 grams at any given time. Growing the substance, or supplying it to the coffeeshop, is still actually prosecuted. If that's not hypocricy, then what is?

About the 500 grams: that's not a lot to begin with for a shop owner. There's a city in the southern part of our country where the local government resisted the establishment of more than the existing two coffeeshops. You can't service all your local clients in such a case with 500 grams, nevermind the Belgians and the French who come over here to buy the stuff. So they had a considerably larger turnover and inventory than was strictly speaking allowed for years. Then, completely out of the blue the cops raid the shop and arrest the owner.

Then, our last cabinet tried to eliminate drug tourism by mandating that coffeeshops can only serve registered, card-carrying clients based on residence. In other words, the government wanted to regulate something that they continued to maintain was illegal. Totally surreal.

All of this nonsense could be avoided by introducing national legislation that determines under what conditions you can grow, sell and possess cannabis. Probably not going to happen, sadly.

[Fragony]

It's actually being regulated, do you think the police doesn't know where the growers are.

[Kralizec]

You mean before they shut them down and arrest them?

[Fragony]

You mean before they shut them down and arrest them?

Some, not all. They know exactly where they are, deal is that they don't move to anything harder. Newcommers to the market will be arrested yes because it upsets things. It has it's own logic.

[HopAlongBunny]

Newcommers to the market will be arrested yes because it upsets things. It has it's own logic.

Don't you get just how crooked that arrangement is? Essentially the gov't aids organized crime by keeping prices artificially high, and limits entry of competition. There is not a business on earth that would turn down such a sweet deal if they could get it.

[Kralizec]

There's no actual policy on growers, other than that it's illegal and can land you in jail if they go after you. Since police and prosecution are somewhat decentralised it would not surprise me if in some regions the police strongly suspects/knows that person A is a harmless grower and leaves him alone, but that would be an exception. And it just proves what a mess our drug policy is; with all the differences in how local authorities deal with the issue.

They should simply have legalised the junk and made clear regulations on the subject back in the '90ies. Our current half-assed policy was a result of short-sighted pragmaticism and I never understood why people ever presented the Netherlands as some sort of role model for drug policies.

A case in point: anti-cannabis sentiment is on the rise in some political circles and one argument they use is that the THC content of Dutch weed has risen dramaticly, and therefore it should be considered a hard-drug nowadays. That argument is debatable in itself, but in any case that would never have happened if we had legalized the stuff with conditions like purity, THC content etc.

[Fragony]

Don't you get just how crooked that arrangement is? Essentially the gov't aids organized crime by keeping prices artificially high, and limits entry of competition. There is not a business on earth that would turn down such a sweet deal if they could get it.

It isn't all that crooked it's an agreement.

[Idaho]

It isn't all that crooked it's an agreement.

Ok. So if it's such a good solution, then why don't the police come clean about what is really happening? How come it's kept a secret that they are protecting a select few tax dodging gangsters who are running a multi million euros business? Seems the potential for high level corruption is massive.

[Fragony]

Ok. So if it's such a good solution, then why don't the police come clean about what is really happening? How come it's kept a secret that they are protecting a select few tax dodging gangsters who are running a multi million euros business? Seems the potential for high level corruption is massive.

If you do it on a big scale you will get caught. It's just not a priority to go after small game, and that's what's provide the coffeeshops. Mostly people who grow a bit in their attic it's 40.000 a harvest at best in a normal house.

[Idaho]

If you do it on a big scale you will get caught. It's just not a priority to go after small game, and that's what's provide the coffeeshops. Mostly people who grow a bit in their attic it's 40.000 a harvest at best in a normal house.

Coffee shops are supplied by small growers? No way. I've seen the brisk trade that many dutch coffeeshops have. I've seen them get re-supplied hourly. That's a lot of weed. You are living in a fantasy land if you think that level of consumption can be met with a few hobby grows.

[Fragony]

Coffee shops are supplied by small growers? No way. I've seen the brisk trade that many dutch coffeeshops have. I've seen them get re-supplied hourly. That's a lot of weed. You are living in a fantasy land if you think that level of consumption can be met with a few hobby grows.

You can't have seen that as that doesn't happen. Purchases go under the counter not in plain sight

[a completely inoffensive name]

You can't have seen that as that doesn't happen. Purchases go under the counter not in plain sight

Woah, woah, woah Frag's. You know who else tells other people what they see? Al Gore.

[Idaho]

You can't have seen that as that doesn't happen. Purchases go under the counter not in plain sight

Heh. Sit in a popular coffee shop, one without a back entrance, and watch how it works. It's not hard to figure out.

[Fragony]

Heh. Sit in a popular coffee shop, one without a back entrance, and watch how it works. It's not hard to figure out.

I have been in the trade I know how it works. You say that it aren't small growers who supply, but that isn't true it is almost impossible to make large spaces invisible for infrared-camara's police helicopters are equiped with, and growing takes a lot of power to begin with they can pinpoint you with that if you are a floor lower, leeching power won't help you from getting detected. It isn't all that easy to grow larger quantities. Popular coffeeshops by the way, especially those where a lot of tourists come don't risk being supplied in the open as there are always undercover police watching those, getting caught means having the establishment closed. That is not to say it isn't in the hands of organised crime mind you, they supply the equipment if you offer them the right amount of space.

[TinCow]

It's one thing to criminalize something that's currently legal. It's a whole different thing to decriminalize something that is currently illegal.

Clearly. It does not however make the case for decriminalizing the drug.

Do you believe it was wrong to repeal Prohibition?

[rvg]

Do you believe it was wrong to repeal Prohibition?

No, I do not.

[TinCow]

No, I do not.

Then you are acknowledging that, in some cases, decriminalizing something that is currently illegal can be beneficial to society.

[rvg]

Then you are acknowledging that, in some cases, decriminalizing something that is currently illegal can be beneficial to society.

Yes.

[Fragony]

Short easy and painless, you guys really need to think things through better before you embark on experimenting and start outweighting things.

[Lemur]

you guys really need to think things through better before you embark on experimenting and outweighting things.

The only way this sentence makes sense is if I read "outlawing" or "decriminalizing" for "outweighting."

Bonus points for making me read the sentence three times and still having no idea what you're saying.

[Fragony]

The only way this sentence makes sense is if I read "outlawing" or "decriminalizing" for "outweighting."

Bonus points for making me read the sentence three times and still having no idea what you're saying.

Exactly that really, you are reading just fine.

Edit, I suck. I meant 'start outweighting things'

[Idaho]

Yes.

As a hypothetical - if legalisation guaranteed not to increase consumption, increased tax revenue, saved money on prisons and took out a big chunk of organised crime. Would you be in favour?

I'm trying to understand if you don't believe that these will happen or if your objections have other origins.

[rvg]

As a hypothetical - if legalisation guaranteed not to increase consumption, increased tax revenue, saved money on prisons and took out a big chunk of organised crime. Would you be in favour?

I would not. My biggest issue with the legalization is that it largely lifts the social stigma. I want the stigma to remain in place.

[Fragony]

As a hypothetical - if legalisation guaranteed not to increase consumption, increased tax revenue, saved money on prisons and took out a big chunk of organised crime. Would you be in favour?

Would you still be in favour of it if it would greatly actually aid chunks of organised crime and make everybody worse off just because of you being kinda egocentric, being egocentric enough to allow that to happen just because you feel you have the right to smoke it. Because that's kinda it in the end. Drugs are currency. You cannot fight it.

[Lemur]

Please show me an example of a first-world nation where decriminalizing an intoxicant has increased organized crime. Because every example I can think of has the opposite effect.

Counter-factual posturing is counter-factual.

"Drugs are currency. You cannot fight it."—another sentence that seems to be saying something, but on close examination turns out to be word salad.

[rory_20_uk]

I would not. My biggest issue with the legalization is that it largely lifts the social stigma. I want the stigma to remain in place.

Laws already exist for this - the equivalent of drunk and disorderly, creating a public nuisance, unfit for work and so on. The other half is parents, frankly.

[Fragony]

Please show me an example of a first-world nation where decriminalizing an intoxicant has increased organized crime. Because every example I can think of has the opposite

That's my point no, nowhere is the western world is the use of cannabis lower then here, just because it's availlable. Yes it's dodgy ofcourse agreed, but it's simly better to have it a bit dodgy. Do you prefer the alternative that is hammering down things you can't beat, or would you rather accept a few facts of life. I don't have to think on it all that long really.

[AntonineWall]

I would not. My biggest issue with the legalization is that it largely lifts the social stigma. I want the stigma to remain in place.

Social stigma is reliant on so much more than the law. Being a drunk is still a source of shame for many an individual and family, despite what is said about addiction being an illness, and the activity being entirely legal. Dont need to look far within UK and US society to see other examples of perfectly legal behaviour which carries a social stigma within particular communities.

[rvg]

Social stigma is reliant on so much more than the law...

The law is integral in maintaining it.