Morrowind - after Oblivion and Skyrim?

[TinCow]

I was pondering on ES level keying last night. I realized that the functionally level keying in ES III, IV, and V are the same. Biggest difference is that in Oblivion the cap on gear for mortal enemies (bandits and the like) was removed entirely.

That's entirely incorrect. This is how the systems work:

Morrowind: All areas have creature levels and loot which are static and do not change based on the character's level. The classic old-school method.

Oblivion: All creatures (and loot) everywhere are spawned based on the level of the player. Creature levels increase as the character's level increases, so that the same level of difficulty (and reward) is encountered everywhere.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas: Areas have difficulty rating ranges and creatures are locked into that range the first time a player enters the area, but the ranges do not change later on. Levels will scale with the player, but only within the constraints of the range limits. For example, if a starting character moves to an area with a level range of 15-25, that area will spawn level 15ish creatures and will be, essentially, off-limits. However, the difficulty of that area will not change later in the game, so that it will still have level 15ish creatures if you return there around level 25. Some areas are designed to be 'harder' areas, and their levels will be set several ranks higher than the character's if the character is within the acceptable range, otherwise it will be the minimum level for the area. Even in these situations though, the difficulty will not reset itself later. Most loot will be leveled, but some is static and specific to certain dungeons/locations.

Skyrim: The same as FO3 and FO:NV, except that areas reset themselves after having been cleared and thus can increase in difficulty given enough in-game time.

The problem with the Morrowind system are that (1) everything is boring and predictable with a set area progression and (2) once you've passed the level for an area it becomes very easy (and thus boring). The problems with the Oblivion system are that (1) everything is the same difficulty no matter where you go and (2) there is no benefit to exploring random dungeons because leveled random loot means you can get the same loot from any dungeon. A random dungeon is a random dungeon is a random dungeon, and there is no real point in going to different ones except for some variety in the design and the type of creatures you are fighting.

As you can see, from FO3 forward Bethsoft moved towards a hybrid of the systems used in Morrowind and Oblivion. In general, I think it has worked well, though I think they tend to err on the low side when making difficulty ranges. That said, I'm a glutton for difficulty and probably don't represent the average player in that regard. I'm perfectly happy using mods to increase my difficulty and thus don't have many complaints with the current system.

[lars573]

That's entirely incorrect. This is how the systems work:

Actually you're way off base.

Morrowind: All areas have creature levels and loot which are static and do not change based on the character's level. The classic old-school method.

That is not how it works. I suppose if you don't pay attention if could appear that way. As in Morrowind areas don't respawn like they do in ES IV and V. When you enter an area in Morrowind it spawns enemies based on your level.

Oblivion: All creatures (and loot) everywhere are spawned based on the level of the player. Creature levels increase as the character's level increases, so that the same level of difficulty (and reward) is encountered everywhere.

This is how it works in all ES games, even Morrowind. If that wasn't true Cliffracers wouldn't present any threat once you reached higher levels. But they do throughout the entire f-ing game.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas: Areas have difficulty rating ranges and creatures are locked into that range the first time a player enters the area, but the ranges do not change later on. Levels will scale with the player, but only within the constraints of the range limits. For example, if a starting character moves to an area with a level range of 15-25, that area will spawn level 15ish creatures and will be, essentially, off-limits. However, the difficulty of that area will not change later in the game, so that it will still have level 15ish creatures if you return there around level 25. Some areas are designed to be 'harder' areas, and their levels will be set several ranks higher than the character's if the character is within the acceptable range, otherwise it will be the minimum level for the area. Even in these situations though, the difficulty will not reset itself later. Most loot will be leveled, but some is static and specific to certain dungeons/locations.

Skyrim: The same as FO3 and FO:NV, except that areas reset themselves after having been cleared and thus can increase in difficulty given enough in-game time.

The FO system is not how it works in Skyrim. I've never encountered an area in Skyrim that's effectively off limits like Old Olney in FO3 (I only just got New Vegas last night).

The problem with the Morrowind system are that (1) everything is boring and predictable with a set area progression and (2) once you've passed the level for an area it becomes very easy (and thus boring). The problems with the Oblivion system are that (1) everything is the same difficulty no matter where you go and (2) there is no benefit to exploring random dungeons because leveled random loot means you can get the same loot from any dungeon. A random dungeon is a random dungeon is a random dungeon, and there is no real point in going to different ones except for some variety in the design and the type of creatures you are fighting.

As you can see, from FO3 forward Bethsoft moved towards a hybrid of the systems used in Morrowind and Oblivion. In general, I think it has worked well, though I think they tend to err on the low side when making difficulty ranges. That said, I'm a glutton for difficulty and probably don't represent the average player in that regard. I'm perfectly happy using mods to increase my difficulty and thus don't have many complaints with the current system.

That things you're complaining about in Oblivion have happened to me in Morrowind.

[TinCow]

Actually you're way off base.

That is not how it works. I suppose if you don't pay attention if could appear that way. As in Morrowind areas don't respawn like they do in ES IV and V. When you enter an area in Morrowind it spawns enemies based on your level.

There are some areas where that is true, but there are significant parts of it that are static. In addition, the only spawn variables are which creatures that spawn, not the toughness of the creatures. A Golden Saint is a Golden Saint is a Golden Saint. It never gets harder or easier.

All you need to disprove your leveling theory is to walk to the northern blightlands as a starting character. You will never survive up there because the creatures are much higher level than you. There are also numerous static creatures throughout the game world that are always there and are always the same level every single time regardless of the status of the player.

This is how it works in all ES games, even Morrowind. If that wasn't true Cliffracers wouldn't present any threat once you reached higher levels. But they do throughout the entire f-ing game.

I'm starting to wonder if there's another game out there called Morrowind and we're talking about separate things. Cliffracers are never a threat at higher levels, they're just annoying. That's what they're famous for. Annoyance, not difficulty.

[Conradus]

From UESPwiki

Enemy Scaling
Creatures do not scale to your level; their stats are fixed.(Morrowind)
Most enemies will be level-dependent, and will be more powerful when you are a higher level. Different and more powerful variations of enemies appear at higher levels.(Oblivion)
Most enemies will be level-dependent, and will be more powerful when you are a higher level. Most enemies have a level range, restricting their leveling to minimum and maximum levels.(Skyrim)