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Thread: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

  1. #181
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    1812, Mexican-American, Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII.

    Edit->Woohoo, got them right!
    Not to sidetrack, but I think people get too hung up on the verbiage here. Congressional authorization for military attacks against another state is a declaration of war- even if they don't use all the "magic" words.

    How many of those 130 times were without Congressional authorization? Alot....
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  2. #182
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    X-man:

    Good points.

    Do you accept that, in this "War on Terror" (A ghastly label, I agree), that virtually anywhere, and certainly any non-domestic US location, can be considered a "Battlefield" providing that certain conditions are present? That is, by the way, a genuine question for which arguments on both sides may be made.

    Is this particular assassination a crime like the death of Trotsky or is Operation Anthropoid (whether you subscribe to the botulism theory or not) a better analogy?


    Pape:

    This kind of assassination targeting accounts for fewer than 3% of the drone strikes conducted by the US military or CIA and their partners. The other 97% of the decisions to attack are made at a much lower level and with far less oversight. I concur with you that many of those targeting choices have been, at best, questionable. In fact, a few of them were, I would venture, negligent (possibly to the point of criminality in some cases) and that the "collateral damage" -- let's be direct and label them bystander homicides -- are the most distressing components of the whole program.

    My commentary, so far, has focused only on those 3% "executive decision" strikes. The others are a whole different kettle of fish.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  3. #183
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    In a world of perfect information and justice and no other sovereign states the Executive strikes would be distasteful yet pragmatic.

    However based on the lack of perfect information, the lack of transparency, the lack of accountability and the very real use of assassinations as revenge not justice IMDHO it is a tool that shouldn't have been used and still should not be used.

    Now add into the mix other state actors be they benign allies or neutral parties or the axis of evil(tm) using the same play book I go from a position of moral disgust to realistic fear.
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  4. #184
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    I realize that it's impractical and unfeasible, but I wish we eschewed smart bombs for more personal methods of associations.

    Pushing a button seems to easy.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  5. #185

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I realize that it's impractical and unfeasible, but I wish we eschewed smart bombs forum posts for more personal methods of associations.

    Pushing a button seems to easy.
    ... ?
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  6. #186
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    ... ?
    OMG knowledge bomb.

    The internet has created, and will continue to create generations of shut ins with no social skills.

    It really speaks to the larger problem. People don't know how to be people anymore. Our insularity will suffocate us.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 02-13-2013 at 02:35.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  7. #187
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    OMG knowledge bomb.
    The internet has created, and will continue to create generations of shut ins with no social skills.
    Well, you could argue that they adopt a different set of social skills which is at odds with people who do not live in similar environments. Many people turned to the internet to escape social real-life, where they might be discriminated over things like being on the football team, it was a haven for the geek and intellectual minded, where similar minds banded together to communicate. This started to spread with innovation and widespread social acceptance where people are getting in touch with others on topics that concern and interest them, without the limitations and drawbacks to real life.
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  8. #188
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Well, you could argue that they adopt a different set of social skills which is at odds with people who do not live in similar environments. Many people turned to the internet to escape social real-life, where they might be discriminated over things like being on the football team, it was a haven for the geek and intellectual minded, where similar minds banded together to communicate. This started to spread with innovation and widespread social acceptance where people are getting in touch with others on topics that concern and interest them, without the limitations and drawbacks to real life.
    Eventually you will have to talk to a real live human, possibly look them in the eyes. People tend to massively over inflate themselves and the internet only further serves that vanity. Any criticism is taken as a personal affront and people demand to be coronated over the littlest accomplishments. This is a statistically observable trend, post all the bullshit, vacuum quotes from dead Greeks you would like, doesn't change a thing.

    The idea that humanity is progress, is laughable. Hunger is progress. Denial is progress. The internet offers a haven from both of those things.

    Limitations and drawbacks to real life? Like getting taken off a pedestal?

    It should come as no surprise that there is a glut of "artists" and fight club faux nihilists among the millennials. All little Kings, desperately clamoring for the world to care.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 02-13-2013 at 03:11.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  9. #189
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Obviously Greek quotes hit a nerve. :)

    Writing letters was once considered a key communication and social skill. You do not always need eye contact to make a statement. Otherwise the only good authors would be ones reading their books out loud to a select few at a time.

    Having grown up on a farm and in a small community before moving to a city at 15, I have to say that the internet does allow more like minded people to group up and talk. I can't say that the Backroom as a whole are exactly like minded as we still disagree, have differences of opinion and downright sometimes dislike and niggle each other.

    As for progress, well unless you consume yourself to death in all likely hood you will have a better life then your grandparents, travel further and see more of the world, live longer, have access to more options and the ability to be more readily accepted for who you are. What won't be handed to you is a comfortable life on a silver platter. You will have incidents, accidents, unemployment and bad relationships. It is just far more unlikely that any of these will result in sending you to an early death bed or a monastery to repent your sins.

    As for real life, I think I've accomplished more there then here. I'm happily married, with 2 kids. Everything else on top of that is gravy. Being married does mean I'm constantly getting knocked off my pedestal and whacked in the back of the head with it.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  10. #190
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Eventually you will have to talk to a real live human, possibly look them in the eyes. People tend to massively over inflate themselves and the internet only further serves that vanity. Any criticism is taken as a personal affront and people demand to be coronated over the littlest accomplishments. This is a statistically observable trend, post all the bullshit, vacuum quotes from dead Greeks you would like, doesn't change a thing.

    The idea that humanity is progress, is laughable. Hunger is progress. Denial is progress. The internet offers a haven from both of those things.

    Limitations and drawbacks to real life? Like getting taken off a pedestal?

    It should come as no surprise that there is a glut of "artists" and fight club faux nihilists among the millennials. All little Kings, desperately clamoring for the world to care.
    In a parallel, the world is getting more grim. Celebrities used to be far removed from society, end up trolled and insulted on twitter, causing heartbreak for miles around. Pedestals taken down faster as the mediocre high-school football player realises he has no real influence on the greater world outside high-school. Cliques come a tumbling as the world is greatly increased in population. Instead of 100, it is now 100,000. The vast pool of knowledge and resources unite. The social intermingling of total war fans can discuss their hobby on the forum, even though they know no one in their town who has even heard of the series. The population becomes more savvy and aware, political and economical structures crack at the seams as they fail to revolutionise into this brave new world...
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  11. #191
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    ...As for real life, I think I've accomplished more there then here. I'm happily married, with 2 kids. Everything else on top of that is gravy. Being married does mean I'm constantly getting knocked off my pedestal and whacked in the back of the head with it.
    A healthy reminder process. I am in the same boat and concur.
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  12. #192
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Do you accept that, in this "War on Terror" (A ghastly label, I agree), that virtually anywhere, and certainly any non-domestic US location, can be considered a "Battlefield" providing that certain conditions are present? That is, by the way, a genuine question for which arguments on both sides may be made.
    That's a little too vague- under the right "conditions" almost anything is possible. You'll have to be more specific if you want me to weigh in here.

    Otherwise, the logic your forwarding here would give the president free reign to kill anyone in the world at any time, based only on his discretion.

    It's our belief that X is collaborating with Al Qaeda. Therefore that location is a combat zone. Therefore, we are free to kill X and anyone in any way associated with them.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    It's our belief that X is collaborating with Al Qaeda. Therefore that location is a combat zone. Therefore, we are free to kill X and anyone in any way associated with them.
    And unfortunately, that's how the GWoT has been prosecuted from the get-go.

    All I have to do is say, "I am Lemur, and I think Al Qaeda is nifty." Boom. I'm affiliated with AQ now, and am fair game for assassination. Torture, less so.

    A war where the combatant is anyone and the battlefield is anywhere and the timeline is infinite—I don't know if that's compatible with representative democracy. That's part of why I've been arguing since the early President 43 days that the GWoT needs to be treated more like law enforcement, less like a war. You cannot "win" a war or murder, but you can make a dent in it, and you can make murdering people expensive and risky. Same goes for terrorism.

  14. #194
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    A war where the combatant is anyone and the battlefield is anywhere and the timeline is infinite—I don't know if that's compatible with representative democracy.
    I feel fairly secure, at least, in saying that deliberately killing American citizens with no more due process than the say so of an administration official runs afoul of our Constitution.

    The AUMF that authorized the war on terror was badly written and overly broad in scope. But even with that, it can't set aside our Constitutional protections.
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    The moment you started carting off people to Gitmo for a bit of enhanced interrogation torture, well that was when your constitutional protections were well and truly swept aside.
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  16. #196
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    The moment you started carting off people to Gitmo for a bit of enhanced interrogation torture, well that was when your constitutional protections were well and truly swept aside.
    I really don't want to shift the debate to Gitmo, but regardless if you think it was right or wrong, Constitutional protections are considered extend to persons within US territory and US citizens at home and abroad- not to non-citizens outside of US territory. You could still argue that detainment at Gitmo is immoral/illegal for various reasons, but I don't think the Constitution comes into play...
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  17. #197

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I really don't want to shift the debate to Gitmo, but regardless if you think it was right or wrong, Constitutional protections are considered extend to persons within US territory and US citizens at home and abroad- not to non-citizens outside of US territory. You could still argue that detainment at Gitmo is immoral/illegal for various reasons, but I don't think the Constitution comes into play...
    Well I guess that makes it all alright then? I mean it's not wrong if you can find a loophole in the law that will let you get away with it? And it scales. Companies can squirrel away billions of taxable income, so why can't administrations "squirrel away" their citizens through a clever little loophole?

    Same story, different version. Bombing al-Awlaki to smithereens and hiding behind some technical legalese is no different from a constitutionality perspective than carting people off to gitmo to avoid having to afford them due process. Next step: you being carted off to gitmo, because what is good for the goose (foreigners) is good for the gander (citizens). All the pieces of the loopholes puzzle are already in place, and when it comes down to it habeas corpus is nothing really. Nothing that a bit of lawmaking can't "fix" or simply be brushed away through a suitably open-ended suspension, as has happened before. (Both in England and in the USA for that matter.)
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 02-14-2013 at 00:41.
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  18. #198
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Same story, different version. Bombing al-Awlaki to smithereens and hiding behind some technical legalese is no different from a constitutionality perspective than carting people off to gitmo to avoid having to afford them due process.
    It's quite different, as I've said. To my knowledge, the US Constitution has never been applied to non-citizens outside of US jurisdictions. It has always applied to US citizens within US jurisdiction.

    You don't have to like either scenario, but there is a higher legal threshold for our nation's own citizens abroad then for non-citizens abroad. If citizenship in a country doesn't afford you some special considerations/rights from that country, what's the point?
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    It's quite different, as I've said.
    No you're getting side tracked again. Simple, really: the loophole game is only ever played to get around pesky obstacles like "standards" or "intent of the law", "taxes" or "ethics", "the book" or "due process". It is about avoiding impartial scrutiny, accountability and responsibility. It does not matter whether or not the subject is a foreign person or a citizen. The behaviour is the same, the motivation is the same, the outcome is the same and the consequences will be the same.
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  20. #200
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Actually, Gitmo was chosen as much for protection of our own citizens as for any Constitutional "side-stepping." We presumed that those incarcerated would be, in the main, willing to harm US citizens if possible, so incarcerating them in Cuba meant that any escapees would be Castro's problem and not likely to be going after any in the USA.

    That aside, combatting terrorism that is NOT attributable to a sponsoring nation-state has been the crux of our difficulty throughout the whole War on Terror era. Neither of our two well-understood models for operation: Law Enforcement using Due Process of Law, or War Fighting; seems to have the best answer. Due process would see the vast bulk of the detainees released for want of "proper" evidence, while war-fighting can seem pointless and endless when there is no definitive locus of authority to be either eradicated or forced to a peace table. I acknowledge that our attempts to come up with a blended option have not been completely successful thus far...to say the least.

    Lemur and Xiahou are both right about the Authorization to use Military Force. As passed, it was ludicrously easy for the President to use military force based upon the flimsiest of evidence....and Congress collectively woosed out on its oversight role here, practically handing its war power constitutional madate to the Presidency. But Congress DID pass it and the American public did not toss out the one's who so voted. Sad.

    Even with what amounted to war by Fiat, even the Bush43 crew felt that they had to go back and secure permission from Congress specifically before invading Iraq. The original AUMF document would have allowed Bush to invade solely because of the tenuous support of one small al-queada splinter group in Northern Iraq*, WITHOUT Bush having to have gone back to Congress for support. Even so, the force of precedent sent them back (with under-corroborated and ultimately proven to be innacurate evidence) to justify the attack on grounds that were more compelling then that tenuous AQ connection.

    * Note: It has since been learned, and was probably known at the time, that this AQ connection to Iraq was no more than Saddam paying lip service to some of the AQ agenda items so as to keep the AQ group well away from him in any practical sense. The Saddam regime and AQ were never really close (arguably they were enemies). There was no substantial AQ presence in Iraq until AFTER Saddam was ousted. They came into Iraq because we were there and we had created a power vaccuum.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 02-14-2013 at 19:50.
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  21. #201
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    They weren't almost enemies, they were enemies. Saddam hated terrorists.
    Oh, I agree. As a dictator, he didn't want any powerbase competing with his own, and the AQ folk didn't really think of him as a staunch muslim either.

    My point was that the AQ "connection" to Iraq was no more than a lip-service thing, that the Bush admin knew it, but -- because of the shoddy way the AUMF had been put together -- even that flimsy premise would have been enough to allow the Invasion.

    I was happy that Bush43 felt enough of a sense of responsibility to seek confirmation of their decision to invade Iraq, rather than relying on the original AUMF.

    (This sets aside the issue of whether our use of evidence at the time of the invasion was appropriate...a separate issue.)
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  22. #202
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    It's quite different, as I've said. To my knowledge, the US Constitution has never been applied to non-citizens outside of US jurisdictions. It has always applied to US citizens within US jurisdiction.

    You don't have to like either scenario, but there is a higher legal threshold for our nation's own citizens abroad then for non-citizens abroad. If citizenship in a country doesn't afford you some special considerations/rights from that country, what's the point?
    Beg your pardon, but quite a few American conservatives (you included, if I'm not mistaken) insist on a literary interpretation of the constitution. The various amendments speak of persons, not of citizens. The only times the constitution mentions "citizens" is when it speaks about the right to vote, etc.

    Case law does make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens, but you generally don't approve when SCOTUS deviates from a word's manifest, undeniable meaning, do you?

    Personally, I think that al-Awlaki's assasination was perfectly justified. He deliberately removed himself from the reach of any state authority by moving to some terrorist no-man's land. You could even argue that he was "in arms", metaphorically speaking, against a friendly nation, as the government of Yemen doesn't take kindly to these thugs hiding on their territory either. Ideally he would have been caught and tried, if that were feasible, but I don't see how the distinction between American or non-American holds any relevance.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 02-14-2013 at 23:15.

  23. #203

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I was happy that Bush43 felt enough of a sense of responsibility to seek confirmation of their decision to invade Iraq, rather than relying on the original AUMF.

    (This sets aside the issue of whether our use of evidence at the time of the invasion was appropriate...a separate issue.)
    Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that the reason he went to Congress was because he knew the whole thing was based on, to paraphrase, a baseless conjecture? Covering himself, by implicating the whole of Congress making sure that he could never be held singularly responsible for deciding to invaded after the inevitable exposure ?
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  24. #204
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Covering himself, by implicating the whole of Congress making sure that he could never be held singularly responsible for deciding to invaded after the inevitable exposure ?


    A very savvy move by the administration. The Democrats could have easily stopped the 2002 resolution, using the same tactics the GOP uses today in Congress. But instead they jumped right into it, fearing they would be viewed as unpatriotic wusses.
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  25. #205
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that the reason he went to Congress was because he knew the whole thing was based on, to paraphrase, a baseless conjecture? Covering himself, by implicating the whole of Congress making sure that he could never be held singularly responsible for deciding to invaded after the inevitable exposure ?
    So the fact that he got required authorization from our elected legislature is somehow more insidious to you than had he just claimed cart blanche based on the earlier AUMF? You can try to attach whatever motivations to it you want, but once Bush had his mind set on invading Iraq, getting the required authorization first was the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    Beg your pardon, but quite a few American conservatives (you included, if I'm not mistaken) insist on a literary interpretation of the constitution. The various amendments speak of persons, not of citizens. The only times the constitution mentions "citizens" is when it speaks about the right to vote, etc.

    Case law does make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens, but you generally don't approve when SCOTUS deviates from a word's manifest, undeniable meaning, do you?
    How could anyone assume that US domestic law could apply to the subjects of other nations outside of US territory? That line of thinking would presume that the US military violated the Second Amendment when it disarmed the German army after WW2. The authors of the Constitution could only ever have intended it to apply to citizens and those within US jurisdiction- to assume otherwise is irrational.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 02-15-2013 at 02:59.
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  26. #206
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that the reason he went to Congress was because he knew the whole thing was based on, to paraphrase, a baseless conjecture? Covering himself, by implicating the whole of Congress making sure that he could never be held singularly responsible for deciding to invaded after the inevitable exposure ?
    I think it unlikely.

    As I have argued in other threads heretofore, I think it is reasonable to view the Bush43 crowd as having screwed up the assessment.

    They used uncorroborated information from defectors who had axes to grind against Saddam and ignored disconfirming messages about the yellow cake uranium and the like. I think they also made the same mistake our intelligence services did against the Soviets in the latter 1980s. We got hold of the information that Saddam's underlings were giving him -- that we can ramp back up the chemicals etc. at the drop of a hat. We didn't factor in that his own people may have been shining him on. We did the same in the 1980s, assuming training levels and efficiency ratings about soviet forces were accurate and that their production figures etc. were accurate, when low level aparatchiks were fudging the numbers so as to not look bad to the bosses.

    Another factor in screwing up by the numbers was the mindset of some of the administration members -- that they were looking for an excuse to finish the job that hadn't been finished by Bush41 and to "contain" Iran by having US bases in neighboring allies on both sides of Iran in Iraq and Afghanistan. That kind of attitude makes it really easy to interpret things as you wish them to be....and not as they are. Put that together with a bit of sloppy intelligence work and you have a "convincing" case for WMD's that have to be stopped NOW!

    As the old saw suggests, Don't attribute maliciousness to something that is better explained by slipshod work and simple screw ups.
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  27. #207

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    So the fact that he got required authorization from our elected legislature is somehow more insidious to you than had he just claimed cart blanche based on the earlier AUMF? You can try to attach whatever motivations to it you want, but once Bush had his mind set on invading Iraq, getting the required authorization first was the right thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    As the old saw suggests, Don't attribute maliciousness to something that is better explained by slipshod work and simple screw ups.
    No I was just pulling your leg there. I probably need to work on my delivery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    The authors of the Constitution could only ever have intended it to apply to citizens and those within US jurisdiction- to assume otherwise is irrational.
    Which in no way absolves the USA from taking people to gitmo for aforementioned questioning using dubious methods outright torture. It also does nothing for your argument that they were somehow special.

    The crux of the matter is not that there is law which explicitly forbids doing that to USA citizens. It is that there's a distinctly slippery slope between the ends justify the means, and simply flouting the law, selectively applying it at will and breaking it whenever convenient. I contend that Gitmo is quite far down that slope, and once you're there and that kind of stunt is accepted by the US public and the various bodies that ought to check and balance that kind of powergrab, well it's only the easy and natural thing to do to extend that power a bit further. And another bit further.

    If you, Xiahou went over to Yemen and sprouted a beard and started preaching Jihad to save America from the infidel Obama you would be fair game by the Gitmo standards.

    Al-Awlaki's death is a consequence of the successive administrations having been able to execute all sorts of dubious strikes and renditions for over 10 years now. So they don't even think twice about it, they know there are no repercussions because that horse has left the stable a very long time ago to be turned into processed meat for consumption as beef.
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  28. #208
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Holder needs to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    Attorney General Eric Holder is not entirely ruling out a scenario under which a drone strike would be ordered against Americans on U.S. soil, but says it has never been done previously and he could only see it being considered in an extraordinary circumstance.
    ...
    In a letter to Paul dated on Monday, Holder said it was possible, "I suppose," to imagine an "extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate" under U.S. law for the president to authorize the military to "use lethal force" within the United States.

    However, Holder said the question was "entirely hypothetical" and "unlikely to occur."
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  29. #209
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Ever notice how those "extraordinary circumstances" and "unlikely to occur" events have a way of, oh, I dunno, happening?

    Remember, kids, only three people were ever waterboarded under "enhanced interrogation." And if you believe that, I've got some great deals in North Korean real estate.

    Gah. I can't begin to express how un-American Holder's response is. It's not Yoo/Bybee level bad, but it's bad enough.

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  30. #210

    Default Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Ever notice how those "extraordinary circumstances" and "unlikely to occur" events have a way of, oh, I dunno, happening?
    Well it is only just a bit further down that slope...
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