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Thread: Euro Area

  1. #2371
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Ah yes, the Germans don't believe in democracy because it elected Hitler.

    Oddly, neither did Hitler.
    Wrong event, I'm not aware of people cheering for total war before they elected Hitler. As such I also wasn't saying that I or Germans don't believe in democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Yes, Germany should leave the Euro - Germany's economy is not compatible with the majority of the block. Once Germany leaves the other countries in the Eurozone will become more competetive, and the D-Mark is not even projected to rise in value that much, which shows the influence you have.
    We have parties that want to leave the Eurozone I think, but they don't get enough support in elections even though most Germans seem to view the change to the Euro as a mistake and are against spending of their tax money for bailing our banks or other countries or our banks' investments in other countries out.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
    (cos inflation is gonna eat my baby or summit)
    Yes, if the inflation does not apply to wages in the same way, then some people will have trouble feeding their babies.


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  2. #2372

    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    There have been so many scares, I don't know what to be afraid of anymore. Should I be afraid of Cyprus's decision?

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  3. #2373
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    We have parties that want to leave the Eurozone I think, but they don't get enough support in elections even though most Germans seem to view the change to the Euro as a mistake and are against spending of their tax money for bailing our banks or other countries or our banks' investments in other.
    That's the same as the UK - people vote on domestic politics, and they don't consider Europe domestic. That rather puts a damper on "further integration" if even the Germans aren't interested.
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  4. #2374
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    FFS can we have at least one thread that mentions Germany without Hitler being chucked in the mix again. Even for a Monty Python fan it's getting very thin.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  5. #2375
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    FFS can we have at least one thread that mentions Germany without Hitler being chucked in the mix again. Even for a Monty Python fan it's getting very thin.
    But we're trying to take over Europe again by making the southern europeans suffer, it only makes sense.


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  6. #2376
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    An interesting analysis in the Washington Post.

    Belgian newssites this morning suggested Cyprus might turn towards Russia. One of the possible deals is Gazprom bailing out Cyprus in return for exclusive rights on Cypriotic gas. If I'm not mistaken, Turkey (a NATO member (which Cyprus isn't)) claims that gas as well. This could get ugly.

    European incompetence seems to have the potential of leading us towards a dangerous geopolitical game.

    So, how is the incompetent and unable to make fast decisions Europe going to react? Do we want Russia to buy itself into the EU? And if Russia buys Cyprus (because, let's face it, that's what will happen if Russia saves Cyprus instead of the EU), what will hold them back to "buy" Greece as well, eventually?

    Or did we all really think the Russian bear was defeated permanently after the fall of communism? And how will the US react if Russia tries to spread its' sphere of influence into the EU?

    Not sure if I'm happy to live in such interesting times.
    Last edited by Andres; 03-20-2013 at 12:33.
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  7. #2377
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Russia already owns half of the EU, where have you been living in the past ten years?
    Our friends from the east are always welcome to help us out.


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  8. #2378
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Russia already owns half of the EU, where have you been living in the past ten years?
    Do you have anything substantial to back up that statement or did you just pull that out of your behind?

    Fact is that the so-called troïka screwed up with its' ridiculous demand of confiscating the deposits of the Cypriotic population.

    Cyprus has always had a good relationship with Russia, so of course, they asked Moscow for help. And how can Russia resist an island in the Mediterranean with the extra bonus of natural resources. At 17 billion, it's a bargain.

    But no, out of fear of losing votes, some go the populist route and yell that the Cypriots will need to pay for their own mess. Which in itself is a fair point, but making them pay in this way is sheer stupidity. Sure, the Russians will make the Cypriots pay for their help, but not with an idiotic "just take 10 % from the savings of the population".

    Why didn't we offer money in return for a substantial share of the profits of the exploitation of Cyprus' natural resources? The politicians of the rich European countries could've 'sold' it to their voters as "see, we're making a good investment here" and the politicans of Cyprus could've "sold" it to their voters as "see, our resources will be used for the benefit and overall good of the country".

    But no, "Cypriots need to pay for their mess, take their savings!" was deemed to be the more intelligent route
    Last edited by Andres; 03-20-2013 at 23:11.
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  9. #2379
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    and yell that the Cypriots will need to pay for their own mess.
    They didn't cause it. Joining the Euro did.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    FFS can we have at least one thread that mentions Germany without Hitler being chucked in the mix again. Even for a Monty Python fan it's getting very thin.
    No - we can't - because it continues to cast a shadow over German politics, and Europe in general.

    I don't think the Germans are anti-democratic, but I do think populism makes them flinch and triggers a knee-jerk reaction. By the same token. the "make Cypriots pay" proposal smells German, just like the "make the Greeks pay" one - the idea that this is some sort of Lutheran morality tale about frugal living is wearing a lot thinner than the Nazi joke.
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  11. #2381
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Cyprus depositor threat is a catastrophe for EU

    The Cypriot parliament has now thrown the ball back to the EU with its rejection of the bailout. It has also opened up the door to the Russians to get involved in the EU's internal problems by sending a delegation to Moscow. The Russians may still come out of this with a charge over Cypriot gas reserves in return for a taking equity in the bust Cypriot banks.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The EU now has to go back to the drawing board and come up with a better deal for Cyprus or else face political, diplomatic and economic defeat. If the Cypriots get a better deal from all this, many here will argue that their tactics of saying no will have served them better than our stragety of being the "best boy in the class".

    And all this carnage suffered in order to protect the euro, for which our political leaders are prepared to destroy trust within the EU both between countries and between the people and the State.

    It is difficult to describe the proposed weekend bailout package to Cyprus as anything more than theft. The confiscation of 6.75pc of small depositors' money and 9.9pc of depositors' funds over €100,000 is without precedence. Now the EU is rowing back because the Cypriots won't bear it, but the precedent is set and the EU looks incompetent.

    On Saturday the EU tried to confiscate people's savings. This is a breach of fundamental property rights. Although the EU tried to present this as a one-off, it is not willing to rule out similar measures elsewhere. Why should we expect any kind of limitation to what measures the troika and EU might take when the crisis – in Spain, for example – really starts to bite?

    If you can do this once, you can do it again and if you can confiscate 10pc of a bank customer's money, why not 50pc?

    This is just the latest in a series of measures designed to protect the euro. Remember, the euro was supposed to protect us, not the other way around.

    But the weekend's efforts to steal deposits in Cyprus and now the involvement of Moscow, reveals just how many moving parts have to be assessed in order to get a handle on the politics and thus, economics of the EU. The level of spin coming out of Brussels, swallowed, it must be said, by all sorts who should know better, reveals the fact that no one is in charge. It is this very lack of political leadership at a time when economic growth is falling and debts are rising, which makes so many of the EU's decisions seem like second rate compromises.

    On Saturday, the EU broke known corporate finance rules by trying to expropriate deposits in Cyprus to pay for its banking collapse. Based on the experience of the Great Depression and more recently, the Asian crisis, most policymakers realise that the most crucial initial reaction to a banking crisis is to prevent a run on bank deposits.

    This is why trying to steal people's deposits and dress this up as a 'tax' is precisely the worst thing to do as it engenders the very panic that the authorities are trying to avoid.

    In addition, by going after depositors, the EU is breaking one of the understood rules of the game (to the extent that there are rules). That rule is that depositors are different.

    Depositors are a different type of bank creditor to any other sort. In an insolvency situation, they ought to be regarded as "trust creditors" or "creditors in trust". They deposit their money, in the main, because they trust the system. They are not investors in the traditional sense like shareholders or bondholders. They trust the system to look after their savings and as such, they need to be protected. If you actively break that trust, as the EU tried to do at the weekend, you do so at you peril.

    And of course the peril or risk here is that depositors in other countries with still-unresolved banking crises, such as Spain, will see the Cypriot deposits being looted, think "we're next" and take their money out of the banks.

    This deposit flight is the bank run which is the very upshot that the authorities are most keen to avoid. Bank runs happen quickly, which is why they are called bank runs, not bank strolls or bank ambles.

    The truly intriguing thing about this episode is that everyone knows all this. The people in power are not stupid.

    They know that gouging people's savings will cause panic, as we have seen in Cyprus, so why do it? Why not impose all losses on bondholders, orchestrate an organised sovereign default or change the terms of the deals?

    Only politics explains what is happening. The first thing to put into the mix is the German election in September. It is clear Ms Merkel will do nothing to upset her voters before that. It is also becoming obvious that Germans and other creditor nations are becoming a bit fed up of bailouts. Equally, the southern periphery is fed up of austerity and is voting against Germanic policies in the Mediterranean. Finally, in Cyprus there is the Russian factor. Because so many of the large depositors in Cypriot banks are Russian, there is a movement within the EU to teach Cyprus a lesson about unregulated banks, money laundering and safe havens for dodgy money.

    But now that move, designed to satisfy all these varying concerns, has backfired, satisfying none, where does that leave the EU? The Cypriots will not accept the deal. This puts the EU on a collision course with Russia and, maybe more crucially, blows out of the water the notion that we are working towards a banking union where all EU savers will be treated equally.

    This latest crisis reveals that the crisis hasn't gone away. In fact, it has morphed into a different beast. With Germany in election mode, nothing serious will be done until October at the earliest and thus Europe will be rudderless for more or less the rest of this year.

    We will stumble from one mini-crisis to another, making enemies unnecessarily and scaring the wits out of the people in the process because they know once you let this deposit-robbing genie out of the bottle, it's very hard to put it back in.


    It's ironic really defending the euro is destroying the EU, the very euro that was designed to cause integration.

    200 or 300 billion loaned to the Eurozone banking system would have squashed this like an ant 5 year ago.

    Roll up roll up lets wait for the next dominoe
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 03-21-2013 at 01:20.
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  12. #2382
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Do you have anything substantial to back up that statement or did you just pull that out of your behind?
    They invested in european football clubs and real estate, they provide the gas half of Europe needs to keep warm and they shelter our poor millionaires and ex-politicians who give them huge popularity by saying Putin is a perfect democrat. Additionally the are starting to do business with us in many other ways. The gas alone gives them quite a bit of leverage of course, they already turned it off for Ukraine and Poland not too long ago because these two didn't behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Why didn't we offer money in return for a substantial share of the profits of the exploitation of Cyprus' natural resources?
    Maybe because "we" don't have the tech and know-how to exploit such resources and make a profit, or maybe "we" are too concerned about the conflict with Turkey, our next member-to-be and current NATO ally. Besides, the Cypriots would probably blame us later for taking away their resources when they were down -> exploitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache
    FFS can we have at least one thread that mentions Germany without Hitler being chucked in the mix again. Even for a Monty Python fan it's getting very thin.
    No, we can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache
    They didn't cause it. Joining the Euro did.
    And since they never joined the Euro, noone can blame them.


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  13. #2383
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    They invested in european football clubs and real estate, they provide the gas half of Europe needs to keep warm and they shelter our poor millionaires and ex-politicians who give them huge popularity by saying Putin is a perfect democrat. Additionally the are starting to do business with us in many other ways. The gas alone gives them quite a bit of leverage of course, they already turned it off for Ukraine and Poland not too long ago because these two didn't behave.
    You don't see the distinction, do you?

    Yes, they sell us gas and we need that gas. Just like they need us paying for that gas. Sure, they can threaten to put us without gas. They can even do it for a short while. But all in all, it's something they can use to put pressure on us. They have influence and they can pressure, but they don't have real decision making power here.

    Compare that to what would happen if they pay for Cyprus' debts.

    One of the elements of the deal on the table is a Russian harbour on Cyprus for their military fleet. That means Russian warships in our Mediterranean. And the Cypriotic government becoming a puppet of Moscow. And all natural Cypriotic resources become Russian. That's a whole different story than Russian investors having influence and the Russians selling us gas we need. So far, they didn't rule one of our member states. If they bail out Cyprus, they'll rule it. And we'll have their warships in our sea. And it gives a precedent for the Russians buying Greece. Doesn't all that make you feel uncomfortable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Maybe because "we" don't have the tech and know-how to exploit such resources and make a profit, or maybe "we" are too concerned about the conflict with Turkey, our next member-to-be and current NATO ally. Besides, the Cypriots would probably blame us later for taking away their resources when they were down -> exploitation.
    But "we" are good at making compromises. We can make a deal with Cyprus involving their gas. Tech and know-how we can obtain by investing. And the EU can make an acceptable compromise with Turkey, since we're not warmongerers. And we can guarantee the Russians that they won't lose their money.

    The Russians will simply take the gas, put warships around it and show their middlefinger to us and Turkey, which will lead to a very explosive situation.

    What Europe is better at is sucking up to everybody a little bit, manage to gain something out of it ourselves and keep the peace.

    Instead, we came with the moronic "give us your savings".

    Everybody responsible for that idea should get fired and never, ever allowed into a position of power anymore. Put capable people on the top, please. They're getting paid more than enough to be capable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    And since they never joined the Euro, noone can blame them.
    You're missing the nuance InsaneApache is trying to make. There's the common people, the ordinary Cypriot who works his butt off and tries to save a little bit, just like you, me and most everybody in the EU. And then you have the elite, screwing us over. I don't know how it happened, but somehow down the line, somebody made you believe that the Cypriotic people, the ones who go to work every day for a meagre salary and try to save some money for the future, are guilty and need to pay the bill. You shouldn't let that happen. Your loyalty, my loyalty, our loyalty should be towards the Cypriotic people, not towards our politicians and bankers. As long as our leaders are able to divide us (the rich North against the poor South) and make us believe the common man in the street is to blame, they'll do whatever the hell they want with us, like taking away our savings just like that or like letting people starve, like in Greece.
    Last edited by Andres; 03-21-2013 at 09:55.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    This is what Furunculus has been saying for years, Andres, Husar feels closer to his own politicians than poor Cypriots. It's the fundamental problem with the EU and why it doesn't work - people don't see it as a pan-European political issue, they see it as a pet project of the elite, and it's not like people voted for the Euro - it's just that all the big parties supported the Euro.
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    This is what Furunculus has been saying for years, Andres, Husar feels closer to his own politicians than poor Cypriots. It's the fundamental problem with the EU and why it doesn't work - people don't see it as a pan-European political issue, they see it as a pet project of the elite, and it's not like people voted for the Euro - it's just that all the big parties supported the Euro.
    @Furunculus is, just like everyone else who shares my viewpoints and agrees with me, clearly a genius. He should be put at the head of the Eurozone and the EU and lead us to glory.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    This is what Furunculus has been saying for years, Andres, Husar feels closer to his own politicians than poor Cypriots. It's the fundamental problem with the EU and why it doesn't work - people don't see it as a pan-European political issue, they see it as a pet project of the elite, and it's not like people voted for the Euro - it's just that all the big parties supported the Euro.
    Furunculus is under a childish belief that what is now has always been. He deems himself British by nationality, which is already kind of supra-national identity as he really is English, which may or may not be forced onto him after the Scottish referendum, also ignoring that Great Britain came into existence a few centuries ago. Prior to that, the the Saxon and Norman melting pot created the English nation, which also didn't exist.

    He's clinging to the status quo which may well prove to be extremely short, history-wise.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Prior to that, the the Saxon and Norman melting pot created the English nation
    Not true.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Furunculus is under a childish belief that what is now has always been. He deems himself British by nationality, which is already kind of supra-national identity as he really is English, which may or may not be forced onto him after the Scottish referendum, also ignoring that Great Britain came into existence a few centuries ago. Prior to that, the the Saxon and Norman melting pot created the English nation, which also didn't exist.

    He's clinging to the status quo which may well prove to be extremely short, history-wise.
    What does any of that have to do with anything?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-21-2013 at 17:34.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    You're missing the nuance InsaneApache is trying to make. There's the common people, the ordinary Cypriot who works his butt off and tries to save a little bit, just like you, me and most everybody in the EU. And then you have the elite, screwing us over. I don't know how it happened, but somehow down the line, somebody made you believe that the Cypriotic people, the ones who go to work every day for a meagre salary and try to save some money for the future, are guilty and need to pay the bill. You shouldn't let that happen. Your loyalty, my loyalty, our loyalty should be towards the Cypriotic people, not towards our politicians and bankers. As long as our leaders are able to divide us (the rich North against the poor South) and make us believe the common man in the street is to blame, they'll do whatever the hell they want with us, like taking away our savings just like that or like letting people starve, like in Greece.
    Last I heard, small savers would not be effected (Ie: the common folk) in the revised plans.

    Link
    Correspondents say the new plan may include nationalising pension funds of semi-public companies and limiting the bank levy to deposits above 100,000 euros.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    So if you've been frugal and saved all your life you still get bilked by the EU. Sorted.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  21. #2391
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    What does any of that have to do with anything?
    It has everything to do with everything.

    EU is criticized, most vocally on these boards by Furunculus, because it is a supra-national organization. In lay terms, it won't work because a guy from Marseille doesn't care for a guy from Krakow, and a guy from Ljubljana doesn't care for a guy from Copenhagen, you get the concept. On the other hand, in a nation state, supposedly, people do care about each other, so a guy from London cares about a guy from Edinburgh.

    And, it's bollox, naturally, for two reasons

    1) Nation state exists for a very small amount of time in human history. The concept of nation state isn't the same in all countries. The concept of nation itself isn't the same everywhere and at all times. British nationality, which I used, exists for a relatively short time, and may cease to exist when/if Scotland declares independence. Since Great Britain was created by the Act of the Union between Scotland and England, if Scotland secedes, there will be no British nationality in that sense, we're back to English and Scots, as citizens of two nation states that haven't existed for three centuries. There are numerous examples like that, another being Yugoslavia where up to a certain point number of people who declared as Yugoslavians was on a significant rise only to drop to just a few in later years. In the space of a decade or two, a few million people changed their position on their nationality. So, not only the idea of what nation state is that change over time, the core components of that nation may change their idea as well.

    2) Second reason is purely selfish - I do agree that a guy from Marseille doesn't care for a guy from Krakow, but I also think that when **** hits the fan, a guy from London doesn't care any more for a guy from Edinburgh. It's all fine and dandy when it's all fine and dandy, but if the guy from London had to choose between seriously tightening his belt or telling the guy from Edinburgh to fend for himself, I'm certain that he would tell him to **** off. For example, since the crisis, there has been a steady increase in general indifference to Kosovo situation in Serbia, which is now at a point where I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be mass protests if Serbia recognized Kosovo. People are focusing on their own problems, they worry about paying back their loans and keeping their jobs. Yeah, sure, Kosovo is very nice, it's important and all, but they can't eat it, if push comes to shove. Likewise, it is quite natural and normal when people are tightening their belts are crying murder if they feel that someone else is taking an additional dime from them. It happens in the nation state and in supra-national state. There are other examples as well, like Italy and Spain.


    Once we are past this, we can focus on the real problems of the EU.

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  22. #2392
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Yeah cool that you can parrot your preferred ideology but I could not give a fig, what has your strawman character assassination diatribe of Furunculus earlier have to do with anything.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  23. #2393
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    This is what Furunculus has been saying for years,
    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    @Furunculus is, just like everyone else who shares my viewpoints and agrees with me, clearly a genius. He should be put at the head of the Eurozone and the EU and lead us to glory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Yeah cool that you can parrot your preferred ideology but I could not give a fig, what has your strawman character assassination diatribe of Furunculus earlier have to do with anything.
    Que?

    Strawman? Character assassination?

    I was quite clearly disagreeing with his position, not attacking him. The only reason he's mentioned by name is because he's been arguing that case more frequently than anyone else and was mentioned in that capacity by at least two posters, and only after that did I mention why I disagreed with his opinion on the issue. Maybe you haven't read most of the thread, I know it's quite long, but that has been the most prominent point of friction throughout it.

    I don't really see a problem here, but whatever strikes your fancy...

  24. #2394
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    You don't see the distinction, do you?
    Lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Yes, they sell us gas and we need that gas. Just like they need us paying for that gas. Sure, they can threaten to put us without gas. They can even do it for a short while. But all in all, it's something they can use to put pressure on us. They have influence and they can pressure, but they don't have real decision making power here.
    I've been saying that they need our money as much as we need their gas for years but I always felt ignored. As such I've now used the opposite argument and immediately got your attention. I think I'm on to something...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    That means Russian warships in our Mediterranean.
    You're a....Belgian....


    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    And the Cypriotic government becoming a puppet of Moscow. And all natural Cypriotic resources become Russian. That's a whole different story than Russian investors having influence and the Russians selling us gas we need. So far, they didn't rule one of our member states. If they bail out Cyprus, they'll rule it. And we'll have their warships in our sea. And it gives a precedent for the Russians buying Greece. Doesn't all that make you feel uncomfortable?
    No, Russians are cool.
    And to channel gaelic cowboy, why are we still discussing this? The government of Cyprus keeps spawning ideas that would avoid a deal with Russia yet I'm supposed to happily look forward to more russian involvement.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    But "we" are good at making compromises. We can make a deal with Cyprus involving their gas. Tech and know-how we can obtain by investing. And the EU can make an acceptable compromise with Turkey, since we're not warmongerers. And we can guarantee the Russians that they won't lose their money.
    Not before Monday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    The Russians will simply take the gas, put warships around it and show their middlefinger to us and Turkey, which will lead to a very explosive situation.
    Would make watching the news interesting again, Turkey is busy treating German soldiers who came to help them at the syrian border in the worst way possible anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Everybody responsible for that idea should get fired and never, ever allowed into a position of power anymore. Put capable people on the top, please. They're getting paid more than enough to be capable.
    Only the voters can do that but they would rather abandon the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    You're missing the nuance InsaneApache is trying to make.
    You don't know that, you can only assume it, because you may be missing my insincerity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    There's the common people, the ordinary Cypriot who works his butt off and tries to save a little bit, just like you, me and most everybody in the EU. And then you have the elite, screwing us over. I don't know how it happened, but somehow down the line, somebody made you believe that the Cypriotic people, the ones who go to work every day for a meagre salary and try to save some money for the future, are guilty and need to pay the bill. You shouldn't let that happen. Your loyalty, my loyalty, our loyalty should be towards the Cypriotic people, not towards our politicians and bankers. As long as our leaders are able to divide us (the rich North against the poor South) and make us believe the common man in the street is to blame, they'll do whatever the hell they want with us, like taking away our savings just like that or like letting people starve, like in Greece.
    The elites playing with us? I thought I made that point earlier when I said the voters are allowing them to do just that. The people have a lot of power but they do not use it. Instead they do things like voting for the same party every time because they always did that.
    I have sympathy with the people, but I also see that the people make mistakes, sometimes knowingly, and as such are partly to blame themselves. The Greeks for example still pay bribes to pass their driver's license test and many, many other things. The whole society is corrupt to some extent, why would their politicians be any different? They come from this society after all. And with "whole society" I don't mean every single person but quite a lot of them. As for the elites, they will always play with people who know less, knowledge means power and that's why I mentioned education. People collect bonus points here but for a long time many didn't even know that the other side of the coin was that all the info about their purchases was sold and used for market research. It's possible to know about quite a few things but it requires some education and some interest, which is often not there and as such these people are easily exploited.


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  25. #2395
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Que?

    Strawman? Character assassination?

    I was quite clearly disagreeing with his position, not attacking him. The only reason he's mentioned by name is because he's been arguing that case more frequently than anyone else and was mentioned in that capacity by at least two posters, and only after that did I mention why I disagreed with his opinion on the issue. Maybe you haven't read most of the thread, I know it's quite long, but that has been the most prominent point of friction throughout it.

    I don't really see a problem here, but whatever strikes your fancy...
    Ah crud.
    "Slight" overreaction on my part but I found the bit you said about British/english/anglo saxon yada-yada irrelevent and coming from nowhere, your second post seemed to ignore that and I got annoyed, and annoyed means irrational apparantly.
    You know that feeling when you just realised you said something wrong? It sucks.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-22-2013 at 00:04.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  26. #2396
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Nation state exists for a very small amount of time in human history.
    1200 hundred years here and counting.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  27. #2397
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I've been saying that they need our money as much as we need their gas for years but I always felt ignored. As such I've now used the opposite argument and immediately got your attention. I think I'm on to something...
    I haven't read this entire thread, so if you've been saying that for years, I didn't read it. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    You're a....Belgian....
    See, that's where the EU fails. If want to be truly Europeans, then we need to consider the Mediterranean as our sea. As long as we think "Belgian", "German", "French", etc. this whole European Union thing won't work.

    Contrary to how it may seem, I'm not at all opposed to a European Union. I do am opposed to the way things are being run now. There's so much going wrong with the EU that it's easy for local politicians (Belgian, French, English, etc.) to (rightfully) critizise the entire project and of course, plenty of people are turning their backs towards the EU. Europe needs to start getting its' act together or we'll fall apart and then it'll be each country for its' own again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    And to channel gaelic cowboy, why are we still discussing this? The government of Cyprus keeps spawning ideas that would avoid a deal with Russia yet I'm supposed to happily look forward to more russian involvement.
    No, I'm saying that you seem to be defending the people who screwed up with their moronic "give us your savings" plan, which now gives an opportunity for Russia to turn Cyprus into a Russian puppet state. Perhaps (and hopefully) it won't happen, but the fact that this opportunity has been created is bad enough. Not to mention the latent risk that people will indeed perform a run on the bank whenever their country risks to perhaps get in trouble.

    The people responsible for that idea should get fired and never allowed into office again. And they should be fired immediately, not after the next election.


    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Not before Monday.
    Never heard of long term investments? You put in money now and get a return within 5 years. Or is too difficult for our glorious leaders to think past behind the next election?


    Only the voters can do that but they would rather abandon the EU.
    Only the EU in its' current form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    The elites playing with us? I thought I made that point earlier when I said the voters are allowing them to do just that. The people have a lot of power but they do not use it. Instead they do things like voting for the same party every time because they always did that.
    I have sympathy with the people, but I also see that the people make mistakes, sometimes knowingly, and as such are partly to blame themselves. The Greeks for example still pay bribes to pass their driver's license test and many, many other things. The whole society is corrupt to some extent, why would their politicians be any different? They come from this society after all. And with "whole society" I don't mean every single person but quite a lot of them. As for the elites, they will always play with people who know less, knowledge means power and that's why I mentioned education. People collect bonus points here but for a long time many didn't even know that the other side of the coin was that all the info about their purchases was sold and used for market research. It's possible to know about quite a few things but it requires some education and some interest, which is often not there and as such these people are easily exploited.
    You just gave the answer to why the elites are still in power yourself.

    But you're wrong to assume that people let themselves been screwed over because of a lack of education or interest. Not everybody is born with good set of brains and the capacity to see through everything. And even if they do have such capacities, the ordinary man needs to work his butt off, so he doesn't always have the time to keep following things very close by.

    Sure, if you look and search hard enough, you'll find plenty of data and figures, but when are people with families and jobs going to do that?

    And so, we keep getting exploited, until somebody goes a step too far, like "give us your savings!". And if they keep going further, eventually, you'll get a bloody revolution.

    You're wrong in assuming that true change (not the Obama kind of change or, here in Belgium, the NVA "power of change") will come through the democratic process. At best, you'll get the same old same in a new package.
    Last edited by Andres; 03-22-2013 at 10:05.
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  28. #2398
    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    1200 hundred years here and counting.
    Yeah, not really, no. Even the kingdom of England was only founded in the 920ties and that wasn't yet a nationstate.

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  29. #2399
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    1200 hundred years here and counting.
    As Conradus mentioned, there wasn't even a concept of a nation back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    I haven't read this entire thread, so if you've been saying that for years, I didn't read it. Sorry.
    I mean in general, not necessarily in this thread.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    See, that's where the EU fails. If want to be truly Europeans, then we need to consider the Mediterranean as our sea. As long as we think "Belgian", "German", "French", etc. this whole European Union thing won't work.

    Contrary to how it may seem, I'm not at all opposed to a European Union. I do am opposed to the way things are being run now. There's so much going wrong with the EU that it's easy for local politicians (Belgian, French, English, etc.) to (rightfully) critizise the entire project and of course, plenty of people are turning their backs towards the EU. Europe needs to start getting its' act together or we'll fall apart and then it'll be each country for its' own again.
    Someone else pointed out long ago that the USA were also not founded on popular opinion but by the elites who decided it and made the people follow. There was apparently even resistance to that union and look how they cheer for it now. Many of these ideas do not start out perfectly and I won't deny there is a need for some reforms but it's hardly as oppressive and bad as some make it out to be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    No, I'm saying that you seem to be defending the people who screwed up with their moronic "give us your savings" plan, which now gives an opportunity for Russia to turn Cyprus into a Russian puppet state. Perhaps (and hopefully) it won't happen, but the fact that this opportunity has been created is bad enough.
    Being a russian puppet state isn't that bad, many former East Germans will tell you that East Germany was really better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Not to mention the latent risk that people will indeed perform a run on the bank whenever their country risks to perhaps get in trouble.
    Only works if you get in before the bank is out of money, better to give them their 10% and keep 90% than be too late and lose 100%.
    The rest and why bank runs happen anyway should be explained by a group psychologist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Never heard of long term investments? You put in money now and get a return within 5 years. Or is too difficult for our glorious leaders to think past behind the next election?
    Or you invest in someone's house because it will only grow in value and there's really no danger to it even if he doesn't earn anywhere near enough to pay for the credit. We should sell Cyprus to the Russians and use the profit to help Greece. Once Russia joins the EU, it'll all be fine again anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    But you're wrong to assume that people let themselves been screwed over because of a lack of education or interest. Not everybody is born with good set of brains and the capacity to see through everything. And even if they do have such capacities, the ordinary man needs to work his butt off, so he doesn't always have the time to keep following things very close by.
    Yes, but noone else is going to stand up for that man, sad fact of humanity. I don't see how that proves my assessment wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Sure, if you look and search hard enough, you'll find plenty of data and figures, but when are people with families and jobs going to do that?
    You don't change the world using data and figures, you need power, for the little man this means gathering, even the elites have consortiums, groups and representatives who speak for many of them because it gives them more leverage than fighting alone does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    You're wrong in assuming that true change (not the Obama kind of change or, here in Belgium, the NVA "power of change") will come through the democratic process. At best, you'll get the same old same in a new package.
    I said there is a way to change things through the democratic process. My point was that it does not happen because so many people are not willing to change their voting patterns enough for it to happen. But if you think the democratic process is not an option, what is? change back to monarchy and hope the next king will introduce radical change in the right direction? The idea of democracy is that the people can vote for someone else if they do not want the current course, it does not work because the people do not use that power and vote based on habit and advertisements. The poor may work hard for 8 hours a day but managers often work far longer and still manage to think about political stuff.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  30. #2400
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Furunculus is under a childish belief that what is now has always been. He deems himself British by nationality, which is already kind of supra-national identity as he really is English, which may or may not be forced onto him after the Scottish referendum, also ignoring that Great Britain came into existence a few centuries ago. Prior to that, the the Saxon and Norman melting pot created the English nation, which also didn't exist.

    He's clinging to the status quo which may well prove to be extremely short, history-wise.
    Bede was the first person to call us "The English", but it was Alfred the Great, his son Edward the Elder and his grandson Aethelstan the Magnificent that forged us into a political nation. Overall, the Norman influence is a tint, not a core component, to our identity.

    Regardless, Furunculus, were he here, would tell you that it's not historical fact by historical myth that defines a national character. The Scots and English can just about stand each other - but there exists little to no fraternity between the English and French, and only slightly more between the English and Germans.

    Husar's opinions, and those of others, demonstrate this.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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