responding to common objections to bible
I will be doing a series of the responding to the 15 most common objections to the bible. I was originally going to do 15 different thread, but people said i should not and i agree, so i will do five right know..
My first was how could a loving god send people to hell
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ell&highlight=
than
what about those who have never heard of bible/jesus
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...sus&highlight=
3] does the bible allow slavery?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:Slavery in the bible
Paul Copan: Did God Sanction Slavery in the Old Testament?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyLpygp4eSE
What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.
In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10
If the Those people who were very financially irresponsible, and had accumulated so much debt that they could not possibly pay it off, could request to become the slave of a wealthy individual (Leviticus 25:39; Genesis 47:19).if the wealthy individual agreed, he would pay off all the person’s debts and provide for him, and then the servant would work for the individual for some period of time apparently proportional to the amount of debt (Leviticus 25:50) but not to exceed seven years (Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12). When the period of time had expired, the servant was set free, and the wealthy person was required to give him enough start up supplies so that he could begin his own business (Deuteronomy 15:13-14). The Israelite slave was to be treated respectfully (Leviticus 25:43) and was immediately granted freedom if mistreated (Exodus 21:26–27).
It’s really a very generous system. Help a financially irresponsible person to become responsible by (1) paying off his debts and providing for him, (2) training him by having him work for a period of time, (3) giving him sufficient startup capital to start his own business. It’s not quite what most people think, is it? I would suggest that the biblical system is far superior to our modern welfare system.
http://jasonlisle.com/2012/01/23/gods-law-too-harsh/
exodus 21. 5-6 says “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
This is not at all what we think of in America as slavery, Jesus is refereed to as a slave as is the apostle paul, if anyone has a job they work under someone else and for them and can be considered a slave.
A great book in the bible of what OT slavery/servanthood was like read the book of ruth. How servant were treated etc. For example, boaz marries his slave/ ruth who asked him to marry.
Contrary to the claims of many skeptics, the New Testament proclaims that all people are equal in the eyes of God - even slaves:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:8)
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (Ephesians 6:9)
a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).
The bible tells owners to take care of “slaves” so they will be as sons, sounds like adoption almost.
21 He who pampers his servant from childhood
######Will have him as a son in the end.
Proverbs 29.21
slaves were to be treated as being hired from year to year,and were not to be ruled over ruthlessly lev 25 53-54
many laws existed to prevent this from happening,many laws to help the poor in lev ex Deuteronomy
Deuteronomy 15 1-18 shows slavery and poverty were to be battled against and not preferred institutions.
all slaves were to be realsed after 6 years and could be bought back at any time if they had the money
people chose to enter into slavery
The OT laws are not gods perfect plan,but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture.Matt 19.8
we cannot apply todays western standards to OT near eastern jews. ot law is not the way god wants, its a way for ancient Israel to live by in a fallen world.
many of the laws are case laws, such as if a man sells his daughter in slavery if two man quarrel etc these are working with infierer conditions in ancient near east.
In dueternomy 15 13-14 it says when a slave is realesed, the more money and wealth the former owner gives to the slave, the more god will bless them dueternomy 15.18.
job 31 13-15 shows servants and masters are no different from each other.
Courts were to rule rightly with jew or gentile Deuteronomy 1 16-17
no physical harm was to be done to a slave or they would be let go ex 21 26-27
if a master kills a slave he is to be put to death ex 21.20
1 chronicles 2 34-35 sheshan gave his daughter in marriage to his Egyptian servant jarha.
Israel was commanded to offer safe havens for foreigners run away slaves
Deuteronomy 23 15-16
1/2 to 2/3 of white immigrants to America in colonial times served as indentured servants or biblical slavery.
Slave girls? Exodus 21?
as far as the slave girl idea that is ridicules these girls were given in marriage to marry sons when they became of age, not against her choice her and father agreed upon it. They were not to be had sex with until there marriage witch they chose to enter into as well as there fathers often because they could not afford to take care of them. notice he does not qoute v 9 witch says she is to be treated as a daghter not a sex slave#
9#If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter
Exodus 21.9
and if he does not she is to be let free v 11#
11#If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.#
Exodus 21 .11
4] why is there death and suffering if god is all loving?/the reason for the gospel
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:I could never myself believe in God, if it were not for the cross. #The only God I believe in is the One Nietzsche ridiculed as “God on the cross.” #In the real world of pain, how could one worship a God who was immune to it? #I have entered many Buddhist temples in different Asian countries and stood respectfully before the statue of the Buddha, his legs crossed, arms folded, eyes closed, the ghost of a smile playing round his mouth, a remote look on his face, detached from the agonies of the world. #But each time after a while I have had to turn away. #And in imagination I have turned instead to that lonely, twisted, tortured figure on the cross, nails through hands and feet, back lacerated, limbs wrenched, brow bleeding from thorn-pricks, mouth dry and intolerably thirsty, plunged in Godforsaken darkness. #That is the God for me! #He laid aside his immunity to pain. #He entered our world of flesh and blood, tears and death. #He suffered for us. #Our sufferings become more manageable in the light of his. #There is still a question mark against human suffering, but over it we boldly stamp another mark, the cross that symbolizes divine suffering. #”The cross of Christ . . . is God’s only self-justification in such a world” as ours. . . . “The other gods were strong; but thou wast weak; they rode, but thou didst stumble to a throne; But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak, And not a god has wounds, but thou alone.”
John Stott,#The Cross of Christ p 235-236
Why is there death and suffering if god is all loving and a perfect sinless god?
Response to Connecticut shooting
http://www.godvine.com/Mike-Huckabee...ign=12-23-2012
According to the bible sin caused separation from god he no longer is with us. All the once very good creation know is falling apart death disease etc have entered everything is wearing old. god is perfect and cannot be around sin. He has to judge sin because it is imperfect. The original perfect creation was destroyed by mans sin, Everything bad that happens according to the bible ultimately is caused from separation form god.
Does this mean if i go get drunk and crash my car god did it? not at all this is my will not his, we have free will thats why we pray your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, matt 6 .10 gods will is not done here ours is, that is why when Jesus was around he spent time fighting disease death etc. the bible says death is the last enemy that will be defeated Corinthians 15.26.
When people asked Jesus if the 13 people that were builders died because they sinned in Jerusalem he said no, sometimes bad things happen to good people the whole creation is under this. So the bible teaches a original perfect creation free of death suffering as god created until sin and separation from him.
god has to judge to be just. if he allowed us to do whatever we wanted kill each other etc.
there would never be a heaven or paradise. it would really be no different than know.
God hates sin and cant be around it, so really all suffering death etc. is a consequence of being separated from god. according to the bible.
but your iniquities have made a separation
###between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
###so that he does not hear.
Isiah 59.2
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
Pslam 5,4
It is no longer gods creation
Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
matt chapter 4 8-9
9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
######Our Father in heaven,
######Hallowed be Your name.
###### 10 Your kingdom come.
######Your will be done
#On earth as it is in heaven.
matt 6 9-10
#16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD,
###### but the earth he has given to man.
Proverbs 18 -17
it is no longer gods creation it was given to man, psalm 8.6,gen 1 26-28 jesus calls the devil the prince and ruler of this world.
John 18 36 jesus says I am not of this world
matt 4 8-9 god is not the ruler of this world.
god gave us free will to accept or deny him we chose to deny. he could have made us all perfect pray all day always do the right thing follow all his rules.But thats not love god wants us to chose to follow him out of love which only comes with free will.
Only when god is in full control when his will is done that there will be no more wars and only peace.
God is not in control of this world his will is not done here.
What it will be like when he is in full control.
#1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
Revelations chapter 21 1-5
##he will swallow up death#forever.
The Sovereign#Lord#will wipe away the tears
####from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
####from all the earth.
The#Lord#has spoken.
Isiah 25.8
The wolf will live with the lamb,
###the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
###and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
###their young will lie down together,
###and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
###the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
###on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
Isiah 11 6-9
1 The vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days
he mountain of the LORD's house will be established
### at the top of the mountains
### and will be raised above the hills.
### All nations will stream to it,
### 3 and many peoples will come and say,
### "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
### to the house of the God of Jacob.
### He will teach us about His ways
### so that we may walk in His paths."
### For instruction will go out of Zion
### and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
### 4 He will settle disputes among the nations
### and provide arbitration for many peoples.
### They will turn their swords into plows
### and their spears into pruning knives.
### Nations will not take up the sword against [other] nations,
### and they will never again train for war.
Isaiah 2 1-4
also there would be no punishment and separation from god if we all followed these two commandments.
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
#37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40 referring to Deuteronomy 6.5 and Leviticus 19.18
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments:
### You shall not commit adultery,
### you shall not murder,
### you shall not steal,
### you shall not covet,
### and if there is any other commandment—all are summed up by this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
### 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13 8-9
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law
Galatians 5 22-23
8 Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
Execute true justice,
######Show mercy and compassion
######Everyone to his brother.
###### 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless,
######The alien or the poor.
######Let none of you plan evil in his heart
######Against his brother.’
Zechariah 7 8-10
8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
micah 6.8
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.
Isiah 1,16-17
when believers die it is precious in the lords sight,because they enter into a true relationship with him with no sin or separation
psalm 116.15
also when they die they are braught away from A evil world.
The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
Isa. 57:1
great article on why we suffer crsq vol 45 2010 and the creation weeps 155-158
http://www.creationresearch.org/members-HYPERLINK "http://www.creationresearch.org/members-only/crsq/46/46_3/CRSQ Winter 2010 editorial.pdf"only/crsq/HYPERLINK
The gospel
This is why Jesus was sent as a perfect sinless sacrifice to god, to cover the sins of man by putting there faith in him,it is the only way for a perfect sinless all loving god to save a sinful people, because we all sin
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3.23
picture god as a judge [he is] and he is a all loving and forgiving judge but also a perfect holy judge ex 34 6-7. To be a judge and fair and if he truly is sinless and hates sin[as a all loving just god would] than he cannot allow any sin to go unpunished he must judge all sin or he is not all just or a fair judge, so how can we make up for our own sin? how could we not face punishment? and separation from god. That is when god as all loving came into history and his creation and died as a willing sacrifice to take the just punishment we deserved on himself so he can spend a eternity with his creation whom he loves and still be all just.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isiah 53 5-6
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
1 peter 2. 24
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5.21
we are justified freely and eternal life is a gift from god given to all man
Romans 3 9-11 eternal life is gift given Romans 6.23 [many other passages]
"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).
"He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).
so all we need to do is accept the perfect sacrifice that Jesus was and we are cleansed of our sin and forgiven by god.
of course there will be many that see this as foolishness
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1.18
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him
1 Corinthians 2 .14
14:1#The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
psalm 14.1
5]does the bible command rape? was rape allowed?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:Rape
Ex 22 10-17 Deuteronomy 22 23-29 2013-14 21 10-14 and page 118-121 is god a moral mosnter paul copan.
rape was punishable by death
Deuteronomy 22 25-27
god hates rape and is 100% against it despite what some athist say, just because the bible records times of rape, does not mean god wants it or approves of it.
6] why does god not show himself today?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
why does god not show himself today?
First god did show himself in the person of Jesus Christ, he came down to this earth to suffer for us, god shows himself in the heart of man, god is spirit and communicates through spirit in the heart. God originally was with us in the garden of eden before sin, god walked with us.
Over and over in the bible god says stay away from me least you die,dont come into my presence or you will die. We are sinfull people and cannot be around a holy just god, all over the OT when these boundaries were broken the person was struck dead because they came into presence of a holy sinless god. God keeps reminding people not to get near him least they die he made many rules etc to keep this from happening. the whole temple sacrifice etc was to show we cannot enter as sinners into A holy gods presence.
but your iniquities have made a separation
###between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
###so that he does not hear.
Isiah 59.2
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
Pslam 5,4
jesus said in john 7 33-34
33 Jesus said, “I am with you for only a short time, and then I am going to the one who sent me. 34 You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”
until we become perfect holy sinless we cannot see god, there is only one way for this to happen A perfect sinless Savior. So while people may want to see god, it is his mercy that he does not show himself in fullness, god at current times communicates very different.
11And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.
1 Kings 19:11-12
This is god a low whisper.
Those that seek god will seek in spirit and truth and will find him. John 4.24 god promises that if a person seeks him, they will find him [ Matt 7 7-8 Jeremiah 29.13 proverbs 8.17 ]
Those that seek god will seek in spirit and truth and will find him [John 4.24] god promises that if a person seeks him, they will find him [ Matt 7 7-8 Jeremiah 29.13 proverbs 8.17 ]
7] has the bible been translated accurately?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:Translation of the bible
Old teastament
Reliability of Scripture – Accuracy of the Old Testament
http://www.josh.org/resources/watch-...ormat=standard
historian Josephus tells how the Jews copied the Old Testament. "We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them" (Against Apion, Book I, sec., 8, p. 158). Josephus statement is no exaggeration. The Jewish copyists knew exactly how many letters where in every line of every book and how many times each word occurred in each book. This enabled them to check for errors (Shelly, Prepare to Answer, p. 133). The Jews believed that adding any mistake to the Scriptures would be punishable by Hell. This is not like the modern secretary who has many letters to type and must work hard to keep their job, and consequently feels that mistakes are inevitable. Great care is exercised with scriptures when someone holds a conviction such as this.
#Dead Sea Scrolls
Old Testament scholar Gleason Archer said that even though there is such a difference in dates of the manuscripts, "they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more that 95 per cent of the text. The 5 per cent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling." No other historical literature has been so carefully preserved and historically confirmed.
great debates
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Director of the Center for the Study of NT Manuscripts
Can We Trust the Text of the New Testament? On October 1, 2011 renowned skeptic Dr. Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Director of the Center for the Study of NT Manuscripts, debated the reliability of the text of the New Testament at Southern Methodist University. This was#the largest debate over the text of the New Testament in history
ΝΟN-CHRISTIAN AUTHORS CONFIRM NT\'S RELIABILITY
http://www.josh.org/resources/watch-...%20Reliability
The Reliability of the New Testament Text (Dr. James White)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuiayuxWwuI
Debate: Did the Bible Misquote Jesus? (White vs Ehrman)http://store.aomin.org/did-the-bible...ote-jesus.html
F. F. Bruce#makes the following observation: “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors,#the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.”
He also states, “And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as#beyond all doubt”#(The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p. 15).
Sir Frederic Kenyon, former director and principal librarian of the British Museum, was one of the foremost#experts on ancient manuscripts and their authority. Shortly before his death, he wrote this concerning the New Testament:
“The interval between the dates of original composition (of the New Testament) and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the#Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established”#(The Bible and Archaeology, pp. 288-89).
There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias.
Clark Pinnock#
Mcmaster University
At the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the Gospels seriously as a source of information on the life and teaching of Jesus.... Indeed many ancient historians would count themselves fortunate to have four such responsible accounts [as the Gospels], written within a generation or two of the events, and preserved in such a wealth of early manuscript evidence. Beyond that point, the decision to accept the record they offer is likely to be influenced more by openness to a supernaturalist world view than by strictly historical considerations
R. T. France, "The Gospels as Historical Sources for Jesus, the Founder of Christianity,"#Truth#1 (1985): 86.
Dr. Bart D. Ehrman
Dr. Bart D. Ehrman asumes there is a true NT orginal to than make his arguments aginst mistranslated text,
Can We Trust the Text of the New Testament? On October 1, 2011 renowned skeptic Dr. Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Director of the Center for the Study of NT Manuscripts, debated the reliability of the text of the New Testament at Southern Methodist University. This was#the largest debate over the text of the New Testament in history
Bart D. Ehrman admits in debate,that the text we do have from earliest manuscripts has been acuretley copied.
Can We Trust the Text of the New Testament? On October 1, 2011 renowned skeptic Dr. Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Director of the Center for the Study of NT Manuscripts, debated the reliability of the text of the New Testament at Southern Methodist University. This was#the largest debate over the text of the New Testament in history
Bart D. Ehrman admits in debate that all the textual difernces added up in one text would differ less than the king james does with the new american standard.Debate: Did the Bible Misquote Jesus? (White vs Ehrman)http://store.aomin.org/did-the-bible...ote-jesus.html
All the NT except 11 verses could be reconstructed from the writings of the Fathers
Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix,#A General Introduction to the Bible, Ch. 24. Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986.
#"virtually the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in the works of the early church fathers. There are some thirty-two thousand citations in the writings of the Fathers prior to the Council of Nicea (325)" (Moreland,#Scaling the Secular City, p. 136).
There are over 1 million qoutes from ealy church fathers most lengthey qoutes of bible chapters and even books in order. Bart D. Ehrman and famous biblical scholor Bruce #Metzger admitted almost entire NT can be reconstructed by church father qoutes.
Can We Trust the Text of the New Testament? On October 1, 2011 renowned skeptic Dr. Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Director of the Center for the Study of NT Manuscripts, debated the reliability of the text of the New Testament at Southern Methodist University. This was#the largest debate over the text of the New Testament in history
The gospels have also been supported by archaeology. Sir William Mitchell Ramsay (1851–1939), the archaeologist and professor from Oxford and Cambridge Universities, started investigating Luke’s gospel with the assumption that Luke was mistaken in many areas. But Ramsay discovered time and time again that Luke was absolutely precise about place names and the many varied titles of rulers. Ramsay concluded:
“Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy … this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians
Ramsay, W.,#Bearing of Recent Discoveries on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament, Baker, Michigan, USA, p. 222, 1953.
Nt far better mauscripts suport than any secular historical writting considered acurate, if anyone douts biblical acuracy, than they must 1000% times that for any anicent writing in roman or greek history.
Can We Trust the Text of the New Testament? On October 1, 2011 renowned skeptic Dr. Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Director of the Center for the Study of NT Manuscripts, debated the reliability of the text of the New Testament at Southern Methodist University. This was#the largest debate over the text of the New Testament in history
historians have no trouble accepting :
There are two generally reliable accounts#of#Hannibal (247–183 BC ) crossing#the#Alps in 218 BC to attack Rome. Polybius (c. 200 – c. 118 BC), a Greek historian, chronicled Hannibal’s invasion at least 50 years after#the#actual event.7 Livy (c. 59 BC – AD 17), a Roman historian, wrote#of#Hannibal’s invasion about 190 years after#the#actual event
Another famous event in history was Julius Caesar (100–44 BC) crossing#the#Rubicon in 49 BC without disbanding his army.9 Suetonius (c. 69/75 – after 130), a Roman historian, wrote his historical account#of#Caesar crossing#the#Rubicon at least 110 years after#the#event,10 and it is considered to be generally reliable. In addition,#the#two earliest biographies#of#Alexander#the#Great, written by Arrian and Plutarch, were written over 400 years after his death.11 And these biographies are considered to be generally trustworthy.
Anything not written in stone cannot be acurate if we consider the bible not to be.
Number of manuscripts over 25,000.
Author
Date Written
Earliest MSS
Time Span
No. MSS
Caesar
100–44#BC
AD#900
1,000 yrs
10
Plato
427–347#BC
AD#900
1,200 yrs
7
Thucydides
460–400#BC
AD#900
1,300 yrs
8
Tacitus
AD#100
AD#1100
1,000 yrs
20
Suetonius
AD#75–160
AD#950
800 yrs
8
Homer (Iliad)
900#BC
400#BC
500 yrs
643
New Testament
AD#40–100
AD#125
25–50 yrs
>24,000!
Early manuscripts current as of oct 1 2012
12 from secondcentury
64 from third
48 from fourth- the whole NT can be consrtucted from times over from these early manuscripts.
Some text of john written within 100 years of orginal nt writings same as today p52 p60 p20 p72 p66 p46
Early manuscripts from 150 years apart from difernt places difernet orginal sources yet agree. Many lines of text that all agree.
Up to 900AD over 500 greek manusacripts 10% of total.
Manuscripts after 8th century add only 2% material to text.
Variation of manuscripts
there are large number of textual variants because there are so many texts.
99% of variants makes no diference, spelling,word order etc.
You can have 100's of variants in the way to say in greek jesus loves paul. Those would all count as variantts.
"essiencial christian beliefs are not affected by textual variation in the manuscripts tradition of the NT"
Dr. Bart D. Ehrman misqouting jesus Q and A section.
Preservation of text
preserved by rapid spread of nt writings.
Scripture could not be reveled before printing press if absolute on all text,or god would have to kill the writer.
Reconstructing original from existing manuscripts
check out the gospel of snoopy
http://www.friendsofcsntm.com/index....d=66&Itemid=69
scholars can reconstruct the original manuscripts based on existing manuscripts.
In gospel of snoopy seminar, [done with layman] people are given 50 copies of a manuscripts, 20 are diliberley mistakes. Of the 70 times tested, 68 were done perfectly to reconstruct the "original" witch was not given to them,but 1-2 mistakes. Over 12 times they created original perfect, the worse done was 4 words off. This is done with lay people given a few hours. Bible has many scholars with hundreds of years and thousands of manuscripts.
We have manuscripts from different time/places that give evidence to the original as they all agree. How do multiple lines of manuscripts differ in country of origin/time agree on text if edited over time?
At most 1% of text is in question-most all have no impact spelling mistakes etc
Debate: Did the Bible Misquote Jesus? (White vs Ehrman)
http://store.aomin.org/did-the-bible...ote-jesus.html
two major groups of texts "right" side and "left" side farthest from each other still agree 95%.
Debate: Did the Bible Misquote Jesus? (White vs Ehrman)
http://store.aomin.org/did-the-bible...ote-jesus.html
the whole original text is there, just need to figure out a few variants.
Church change doctrine/edit bible?
we have manuscript evidence from before any of the councils so if they had changed any doctrine we would have known about it.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011...testament.html
the above link to video also shows the impossibility of any one group or council changing the NT documents.
We have manuscripts from different time/places that give evidence to the orginal as they all agree. How do muitple lines of manuscripts differ in country of orgigin/time agree on text if edited over time?
If the catholic church changed doctrine in 4th century , why not add or subistute doctrine to fit theology/church systems? Contradicts bible in many issues the church does?.
All the NT except 11 verses could be reconstructed from the writings of the Fathers
Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix,#A General Introduction to the Bible, Ch. 24. Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986.
#"virtually the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in the works of the early church fathers. There are some thirty-two thousand citations in the writings of the Fathers prior to the Council of Nicea (325)" (Moreland,#Scaling the Secular City, p. 136).
worldview effects.
#The#problem is when you#start with a worldview that demands#the#bible#to be false, apostles to not have written books, than you#must#come up with some evolutionary process#of#how#the#bible#was written/rewritten over time. because we#know#jesus was not really god, he did not#really#do miracles, he did#not really#rise from#the#dead. So these#must#be stories that grew over time, or invented to trick people into following there new religion etc etc. For example,#the#book#of#matt#must#have been written after 70 ad because it predicts#the#temple to fall, and since prophecy does not happen, we#know#matt was written after 70 ad. I dont care about people#bias against#god/divine author/bible miracles etc. I care about facts,#what facts do you have#the#gospels were not written by#the#original apostles or Paul?. I highly suggest you watch some debates on#the#subject, with a conservative scholar there to defend#the#bible. As#thequote I wrote before said,#if these were secular documents, no one would question#the#authority#of#them,#but because they talk#of#a man, who did miracles,claimed to be god, rose from dead, they#must be imaginative#written after events, not a eye witness account. If you watch my link with james white, this is why he asked Bart Ehrman [who attacks#bible#translation#more than any] in#the#debate, doesthe#bible#misquote jesus, what has more evidence in all history to its authenticity than#the#NT, he replied#nothing does.
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Originally Posted by Strike For The South
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